// These are not HYBRIDS!
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  1. #1
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007

    These are not HYBRIDS!

    I can't figure for the life of me, why someone would purchase a vehicle that cannot run on electric alone. Can some one please fill me in! Also how are these even considered hybrids?

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  3. #2

    Re: These are not HYBRIDS!

    They are hybrids.....just very unimpressive ones compared to the Toyota or Honda technology. They do have a battery that does recover energy from braking and this is good enough for GM to call it a hybrid (but not good enough for you, and your point is understood). The reason for someone buying would be better gas mileage than the none-hybrid version....or/and lower pollution. Both very good reasons that should be encouraged....and if encouraged enough may make the next car an even better hybrid. If you are a GM employee and have a company discount, this may be the best choice for a hybrid vehicle. (or maybe the only choice.)

  4. #3
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Unimpressive is right! The Aura hybrid gets an EPA rated 27 mpg combined. The regular Aura gets 21.

    An extra 6 mpg -- BFD!

  5. #4

    Vue is not a two stage Hybrid but it is still a Hybrid!

    BFD....only a 6 mpg increase...you are mistaken!

    You have to start improving the gas mileage somewhere. Let's have a math lesson. 6mpg improvement on a 21mpg Aura is a 28.5% increase in fuel effciency. (6/21) I think a 28.5% increase in gas mileage is a significant improvement. (I think we would all like to get 28.5% more of something.)

    If you look at the SUV category here is the breakdown:

    For the Saturn Vue Hybrid 2008 epa ratings 26mpg vs 23mpg for the non Vue Hybrid. A 13% increase.

    Granted there are two stage SUV Hybrids that get better results.
    Ford Escape Hybrid gets 30mpg as compared to the non hybrid Escape's 21mpg. 42.9% increase

    Toyota Highlander 2WD Hybrid gets 26mpg vs 19mpg. 36.8% increase

    Mecury Mariner 4WD Hybrid gets 37mpg vs 20mpg. 35% increase.

    However, the Saturn Vue comes with the lowest price tag by far.

    To answer the other statement in this post - "why would anyone want to buy a Saturn Vue Hybrid" - the answer can be found in my other post.

    I purchased a 2007 Saturn Hybrid Vue after my 1995 Saturn SC2 with 160,000 miles on it blew a cylinder. I choose the Saturn Hybrid Vue over the Ford Escape, Mercury Mariner the Toyota Highlander for a few reasons.
    #1> I was satisfied with Saturn brand from my previous car. The last time a drove a Ford was a Ford Tempo back in college - never again.
    #2> Cost - the Vue was several thousand less than the Toyota and the Ford.
    #3> Space - the Vue was very spacious inside and had plenty of room for my two road bikes.
    #4> I love to drive. 90 miles each day to and from work. 30000+ for the year and the Vue offers a smooth drive.

    In addition, the 2008 epa estimate for the Hybrid Vue is 26mpg but I have a documented 31.44mpg lifetime average or in other words I get 120.9% of epa estimates. There are few owners of any Hybrid (two stage or Saturn's BAS system Hybrid) that can state they get 120% of epa estimates.

    Check out my results at:
    <Saturn Vue Hybrid>

    While the Saturn Vue is not a two stage Hybrid - it is still a Hybrid that deserves the attention of the automotive industry and potential buyers.

  6. #5

    The Vue is a pathetic GM greenwashing

    Sorry but GM and specifically Saturn lost my support through their treatment of the EV1 and we, their customers.
    The EV1 was, to me, the perfect commuter car. It produced zero local emissions, never went to the gas station, required nearly zero routine maintenance (only tires and wiper blades), got effectively well over 120 mpg, beat Mustangs, Miata's, and SLK's out at the light (caaused Porche drivers to worry as well).
    GM and Saturn chose to suppress this great technology, marginalize and punish those of us who disregarded their attempts to NOT sell this car and actually had the audacity to sign leases for it. Of course, we all subsequently fall in love with the cars they didn't want to offer to the public or even acknowledge were possible to produce.
    At lease end, they forced us to return the cars, after which, they were crushed (see: http://ev1-club.power.net/archive/03...pg/after2.htm). Some leasee's who had been particularly vocal against GM demanding the cars be returned were further punished as GM levied damage charges for scratches on curb spoilers, some over $1000, even though the cars were destined to be destroyed. See the movie "Who Killed the Electric Car" for another view of the story that GM suppressed in the newspapers.
    Now, when GM (Saturn) choses to again pay lip service to doing something a little bit better than the rest of the old crap they've been selling for years such as their pathetic Greenline hybrids, I see no reason to reward them for their inaction. These cars simply prove that GM has no concern for the future.
    I understand your reasons for going with the Saturn
    #1 - Saturn Brand: I, too had a '95 Saturn SL1. As and ICE car, it was great. Unfortunately, that was a different Saturn. That Saturn was a joint venture between GM and the UAW. It produced a great car but threatened the GM status quo. After intentional neglect to prove it, too, was a failure, it was destroyed and Saturn, today, is just another GM junk brand.
    #2 Cost: I think you mean Price. The only reason it costs less is because no one wants it. The Toyota, Ford, and Honda hybrids are quite desireable, hence, the dealers have trouble keeping them in stock. Supply and Demand makes the price high.
    #3 Space: the Vue is ok. but isn't any better than the HCH or FEH and not too much better than the Prius.
    #4 Drive: It doesn't drive particularly better than any of the other hybrids on the market and you put a lot more gas in them.

    Enjoy your Vue but it's still the WORST hybrid on the market. I won't badmouth the rest but GM's total disregard for doing anything right wins them a special place in my heart.

  7. #6
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    "Let's have a math lesson. 6mpg improvement on a 21mpg Aura is a 28.5% increase in fuel effciency."

    Thanks for that math lesson. Now let's have a reality check.

    The Aura green line uses a 2.4L 4-cylinder engine w/electric assist, while the regular Aura uses a 3.5L 6-cylinder engine. OF COURSE the 4-cyl. gets better mpg than the V6!

    The 4-cyl has 33% less volume, yet only gets 28% better mpg even WITH a hybrid electric assist? This has to be some kind of engineering joke to see if they can fool anyone into paying thousands more for a 4-cyl. hybrid that "miraculously" gets better mpg than a V6. You could get an extra 6 mpg from the V6 Aura just by driving it efficiently.

    This is why Honda recently announced that it will scrap the Accord Hybrid. The company mated the hybrid system with a V6, which got the same mpg as the 4-cyl. Accord. To no one's surprise (except apparently Honda's), customers interested in fuel efficiency chose the $25,000 4-cyl Accord over the $31,000 V6 hybrid.

    Go figure.

    People WILL pay extra for efficiency, but only if they actually GET efficiency -- not B.S. marketing campaigns that try to compare 4-cylinder apples to V6 oranges.

    I recently paid $3,100 extra for a Civic Hybrid vs. a gas-only Civic. But with the hybrid, I got a $2,100 tax credit, plus this:


    That's mixed city/hwy driving, with full use of A/C in the Texas heat, and 65 mph cruise on the highway.

    Now THAT'S efficiency! And all for the same $22,000 price as the Saturn Aura.

  8. #7
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Quote Originally Posted by Kirkman View Post
    I can't figure for the life of me, why someone would purchase a vehicle that cannot run on electric alone. Can some one please fill me in! Also how are these even considered hybrids?
    Um... because they are. Maybe they're not YOUR ideal of a hybrid, but they meet the market's current definition of a hybrid. Besides, Honda's hybrids were just like this until the redesigned Civic came out - they couldn't run on Electric alone. It's called Electric Assist. Sometimes refered to as Mild Hybrids. But nobody questioned the hybridness of Honda's vehicles now did they?? Nooooo... because they're made by Honda, but if GM makes the same thing, it's crap.

  9. #8

    Best driver of the worst hybrid....

    I am so glad everyone has their own strong opinions - the Saturn Vue Hybrid - “Worst Hybrid” on the market. Well then I guess that makes me the best driver in America of the “worst hybrid”. In the mean time, my last tank just got 36.14mpg over a 505.5 mile span. That is better gas mileage than most of the Ford Escape, Mercury Mariner and Toyota Highlander Hybrids on the road. I am sure any SUV driver would jump at that number. As for the worst hybrid – I would give that to the Lexis LS600h at a retail price of $104,750. (The main reasons – the cost and that the Toyota's hybrid Synergy drive is configured more for propelling the big sedan quickly than it is for fuel efficiency.)

    To put the entire blame on GM for the shelving of the EV1’s does not tell the whole story. Responsibility should also go to the Big Oil, Big Business and Big Government that all contributed to the demise of the EV1’s and most importantly “timing”. The American public was not ready for them. To think that 500 die hard EV supporters speak for America is not true. In addition, one happy Saturn Vue Hybrid owner can not speak for the masses, just for myself.

    My two cents worth.

  10. #9
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    EV1 owners may may not "speak for America," but they did offer to BUY the electric vehicles. GM flatly said no, then seized and destroyed all the cars.

    GM had several hundred people willing to PAY MONEY to buy the cars they had already spent years leasing. GM instead PAID MONEY to haul away all the cars and PAID MORE MONEY to destroy them.

    When a car company bucks the basic concept of profit vs. loss, anyone can see that something's wrong.

  11. #10

    Saturn Hybrid Vue response

    First and most important, Thanks for your two cents (you have good points) and thanks greatly for making a successful effort to maximize MPG. 1stpik also has good points, if strongly stated. I like the exchange and see a very close similarity to the introduction of emmission controls in the 1970s. With initial pollution standards, the Japanese committed to higher backpressure engines (except Honda committed to CVCC engines) while Ford and GM committed to backfitting existing engine designs. As a result Japanese cars were seen as higher quality (less engine problems) while most backyard mechanics figured out you could restore American car performance by getting rid of that emmission stuff, especially that catalytic converter (allowing the engine to operate as designed). Eventually all manufacturers had to move to fuel injection and new engine designs to meet present pollution requirements. So in the end everyone benefits from the pollution reduction, but GM/Ford/Crysler lost ground following instead of leading.

    Strangely, the hybrid situation looks identical. GM is committing to designs that are good for improvements in MPG, but with designs that look like they are backfits to an established infrastructure. Meanwhile Toyota is making some missteps (100% correct about the Lexus) but is forcing the rest of the car industry to follow the "real hybrid" path. GM is feeling the sting of the EV1. Every GM bigwig gets reminded of this incessantly...as they should. Your purchase of a Hybrid Vue has sent a message that counts. So GM does something smart, and proposes the Volt. But now the pressure is on. Will they follow through.....or......repeat history. I want them to succeed.

    All of us will have to buy a vehicle after our present hybrids. Let's hope we have a good selection of great MPG or MPkWh vehicles from multiple manufacturers.

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