// Steam-electric hybrid auto - Page 3
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  1. #21

    Mike, First of all, I'm an

    First of all, I'm an old Navy (600 lb steamplant) man and an avid railfan so I actually do have a soft spot in my heart for steam engines. We had a 600 lb turbine system.
    I also happen to be a 40+ year old electrical engineer so, as much as I love steam, I suspect that, for portable applications, its feasibility is questionable, unlike electric motors.
    The reason the ability to touch an electric motor is important is that the inefficiency of a motor is generally caused by the heat that is produced. As you know a great deal of heat is generated by most IC engines and steam engines that can be challenging and expensive to recover. If you can touch a motor, there isn't much wasted energy since it is all going into the mechanical work being done.
    The efficiency of the electric motor is why a modern electric car such as the EV1 and the Tesla can go 120 and 240 miles per charge (respectively) while the batteries (which hold very little energy per mass than gasoline) in them hold only about the equivalent of 1 and 2 gallons (respectively) of gas.
    It really is easy with electric motors. They can easily be over 90% efficient. Look around yourself. Go ahead and google "electric motor efficiency" don't take my word for it..

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  3. #22

    240 miles ! at what speed 20

    240 miles ! at what speed 20 mph? - If what you say is true your EV1 would be everywhere Gas cars would all be in museums; but there not because they do not work. I checked your web address and saw the web page on ele motors at 110 % effiency, It looked like cold fusion to me. My problem is the first and second laws of thermodynamics - look that up. And i looked at the ele motors on my CNC machine at work, a ele DRILL and my weed wacker - they ALL got pretty HOT. PS a soft spot for steam has nothing to do with liking steam cars i just think its a better way to go and i live in ILLINOIS and have seen 50 below 0 temp. how do you heat a all ele car?

  4. #23

    Did you all know that in

    Did you all know that in 1933 there was a steam powered air plane! it did fly ( look it up on U TUBE ) built by besler systems - pretty efficient steam got off the ground!

  5. #24

    Mike, You're a stubborn one,

    You're a stubborn one, I gotta admit but I like your skepticism - that's healthy. Don't let yourself get duped by nonesense. Demand to see proof!!
    That ~240 miles per charge for the Tesla is alegedly with the EPA combined cycle and their new drivetrain 1.5. I haven't measured it myself since I don't yet have a Roadster.
    Did I mention that the Tesla Roadster can accelerate from 0 to 60 in less than 4 seconds as well?
    Regarding the EV1, you're 100% right that were they not all taken off the road and crushed (http://ev1-club.power.net/archive/031219/jpg/after2.htm), they probably would have completely disrupted the auto industry. This is, of course only one of the possible reasons they and the entire auto industry killed the Electric cars that they built and released in California in the late '90's. Rent or buy "Who Killed the Electric Car", (http://www.sonyclassics.com/whokilledtheelectriccar/) the documentary that goes over the whole episode.
    I did drive the EV1 from LA, CA to Palo Alto, CA back in 2002 with charging stops in Camarillo, Santa Barbara, Santa Maria, San Luis Obispo, and Salinas. You can look on a map to see that San Luis Obispo and Salinas are about 135 miles apart. This means that I must have gotten at least that much range off of a charge.
    110% efficiency, is a problem - it can't work. 90%, however can. Yep, your drill or weed wacker does get hot but compare your electric weed wacker with a gas model and tell me which gets hotter.
    Heating an electric car certainly can't be done using the waste heat from the engine like an ICE car. The EV1 had a heat pump, Ford made an EV Ranger that actually had a diesel burning heater. You'll have to ask some of the folks who are getting Tesla Roadsters that live in IL about how well their heater handles the load. I don't think any of them will be delivered to IL until early 2009 though.
    You're right that steam powered air planes have been tried. So have electric ones. Of course it was an electric one that set the world record for altitude at 96,000 in 2001 and is one of the hottest spyplanes in the US military today (http://www.reuters.com/article/press...008+BW20080207). That steam plane barely flew.
    Actually, one could say that the B52 is a hybrid steam/jet plane since it can use water injection into its jets to augment the thrust on takeoff. They didn't do it too much since it shortened the engine life but steam clearly does have a place in the world.
    I'm hoping to pass through Chicago next summer in my Tesla Roadster. Perhaps you'll be able to see it for yourself. In the mean time, I welcome you to surf around the web and look for credible evidence of the greatness of the electric motor.

  6. #25
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2008

    Electric hybrids and all

    Electric hybrids and all electrics are two different animals for sure. I love the Tesla roadster and the fact that it was built with off the shelf technology. I believe that as batteries continue change in breakthroughs and advances, we will eventually become an electric car society.

    Are we there yet? Not by a longshot. But we are certainly heading there quickly, as we should be. But the bulk of people will not buy an electric that cannot at least duplicate or exceed the mileage in an IC driven car. Batteries will have to be charged on demand on as quickly as filling a tank of gas (perhaps a combo of the new ultracapacitors and high density batteries). It also must be comfortable with all the modern day amenities.

    Until that happens, MOST people (not all) will not sign a 5 year loan on an electric.

    The other end of this equation is that there are more than a half billion cars on the road around the world, it would be devastating to just suddenly dump them all (nor could that happen either). So we as a society, must seek out transitional methods to help us move from one tech to another.

    Hence the beauty of a hybrid. I am personally biased towards the water hybrid (not steam) that uses simple electrolysis to increase the efficiency of gasoline or diesel. It works now, saves gas, and cleans up the exhaust. It's a simple, elegant solution that the majority of people can instigate today, as we move toward an electric society.

  7. #26

    It's a very utopian idea

    It's a very utopian idea that has been eloquently discussed here that we can move away from the ICE and transition towards the "electric" car. I've been a fan of Telsa Motors ever since I happened upon them, and I award them serious kudos for their efforts in the face of what I'm afraid I can only say are fairly nefarious political opposition, as well as, some serious hurdles, both financially and technologically.

    Truth is likely as hybridman2 says, we'll have to get faster charging and also a lower entry-level cost. Tesla Motors have plans to make that happen, and, yes, there is the Volt on the way. These are great things, and I'm all for using the brown's gas in the ICE-vehicles that currently exist but I also think that we need to keep generating new ideas. It's been discussed that there are ideas for steam-powered vehicles/hybrids, but action is really what's needed.

    Having said all that, what about a brown's gas steam vehicle? I'm sure at least some of you have seen the "HHO-powered" car, which I believe still utilizes some ICE technology, correct me if I am wrong. However, the same principles that allow for the HHO welding apparatus could potentially be utilized to create an extremely high temperature very rapidly. Would this create a need for a higher level of boiler reinforcement? I have just given myself a royal headache looking at the issues with specific-heat-related issues with brown's gas, but we used it for heating during the depression and if it couldn't be used for on-demand, variegated heating as in the Doble, couldn't it at the least be used as a near 0% waste source for battery charging in hybrid vehicles with extremely low operating and maintenance costs?

    What's your cost for fueling? Distilled water? Maybe some electrolytic catalyst like aluminum, potassium or magnesium? Any thoughts?

  8. #27
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2008

    Alex, I think if we combined

    Alex, I think if we combined the energy in Brown's gas with a modified steam boiler it could have interesting results. We actually plan on doing some research into this area, especially during the superheated steam cycle. I don't know if it would work in the initial boiler though.
    HHO gas is an unusual beast. The water torches you mentioned don't weld steel with the same efficiency as a gas/acetylene, but yet they can instantly sublimate tungsten or change brick. It's a strange phenomenon that many are still experimenting with, especially when you can actually touch the tip of the torch without burning yourself.
    The same torch that can cut trough tungsten, can be held on water and it won't boil, which brings me back around again to viability in steam engines.
    It will take a shift from the norm to get it to work, but I believe it's possible...

    Transitional Technologies, LLC

  9. #28

    I'm a student at the James

    I'm a student at the James Madison University Alternative Fuel Vehicle Lab. As a student, this concept has been brought up many times and I am in the process of researching and drawing up a plan to build this type of concept for a project next year. If you would like to bring input and help with the project just shoot me an email.

  10. #29

    I am very impressed with

    I am very impressed with Cyclone Power as described in its website. However, I am really puzzled if it is really so successful, why there has not been any automakers to invest in the technology and to bring it into practical applications?

    Are there still major unresolved practical problems?

    Based on the website, it seems that it is meant for direct drive rather than steam-electric hybrid.

    Could someone shed some light?

    Thank you.

  11. #30

    I can understand a persons

    I can understand a persons need to get to work on time
    so how about just running a small engine to power the generator to recharge the batteries and use the heat from the burned gas to heat the water to boiling point
    also water cooled engines by-product is heat ,cooled by water
    so we turn the heat into hot water,close to steam then heat it the rest of the way with the hot exhaust
    when the water is boiling we can shut off the gas engine and use the exhaust {with fuel and igniter } to continue boiling the water
    the steam turns the turbine the turbine and the ic motor are both connected to the generator
    the generator charges the batteries
    we use recumbant breaking {flywheel to generator breaking}
    take the steam and condense it back to water to be recycled
    alcohol is our fuel and when the car is at rest the roof can provide
    solar battery maintanance
    a tri powerd hybred

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