Non-Hybrids that achieve near Hybrid MPG

Been hearing alot about how some hybrids may not seem that cost effective. With dealer price premiums and waitlist, it could take months.

How about future maintenance cost on the regenerative braking system and Electric Motor. This could take years to recompensate.

So the next best thing:

Non-Hybrids
---------------
07 Toyota Yaris = 45
07 Honda Fit = 45

Hybrids
-----------
06 Toyota Prius = 55 MPG
06 Honda Civic = 50 MPG


Give or take, the Yaris & Fit maybe the closest thing to a hybrid that is not. Also its price range is within 13k-16k compare to 20k+ with Civic and Prius Hybrids.

Sounds like you are comparing a fully loaded HCH or a nicely loaded Prius to stripped down econo cars.

People have been comparing these for years.

I wonder what these vehicles will cost once loaded up with comparable features?

Your $13K automobile isn't a very good deal if you want the most dollar for mile value.
Case in point- There are a few new vehicles to be had in the $10K range that get mid-upper 30's MPG.

Yes, for $10K you get a stripped down econo box. Nothing extra but a great fuel for mile value.

How about comparing a fully loaded Civic EX to a stripped no-frills DX and say the additional $6K is for nothing?

"I wonder what these vehicles will cost once loaded up with comparable features? "


With the Yaris & Fit, Fully Equipped Features should hit around 16k.

The Fit is also quite versatile with its seating configuration and loads of pocket trays.

I doubt Honda would release a fully loaded car that costs $5,500 less than it's competing MPG model.....The championed, newly redesigned HCH.

In the same token for Toyota, up to $12,000 less than Pruis?

Somethings wrong with that picure.
Why would you guess they would cut their own throats?

I doubt the Fit is capable of almost 70MPG tanks.

Ahh, this explains it- a mini subcompact.
http://www.autogazeta.com/g/342/Hondafit_b.jpg

Edmunds post:
http://www.edmunds.com/future/2006/h...8/preview.html

"It will begin selling a smaller, less expensive model below the current Civic. Designed to go head-to-head with the likes of the Scion xA and other sub-$15,000 compacts"

Consumerguide:
http://auto.consumerguide.com/auto/n...695/?print=yes

"Honda's Fit minicar (is) Taller than Civic, but shorter and slimmer, this 4-dr hatchback reportedly uses a 1.5-liter twincam 4-cyl engine and will be priced from around $12,000. Honda hopes to woo young first-time buyers away from Toyota's Scion and other budget-priced small cars."

Yes, this will be a great dollar for mile value and no doubt a good starter vehicle.
It could be why Toyota stopped selling Echo.

However, it is designed well below Civic, and more below HCH.
Since this is below even a Civic DX, there is no comparisson.

I will put in another shameless plug for a diesel.

A VW Jetta GLS TDI sells, in Canada at least, for a MSRP that is about $1400 less than a Honda Civic Hybrid. It is comparably if not better equipped, with electric windows and door locks, cruise, air, heated seats, front/side airbags, 4-wheel disk brakes with ABS. ESP (stability protection) is available for about $400 CDN. A station wagon version based on the oldre platform is still available for about $1000 more (we have one). It will get about 45 mpg highway.

The station wagon is more economical as it's based on the lighter A4 platform. You can get 50 mpg on the highway if you drive at the speed limit, and with a large fuel tank capacity, we've seen range hit 800 miles. City mileage won't be as good as a hybrid. Figure 35 mpg city.

With the new Civics, you could consider a base DX sedan. In Canada it retails for $16800, has ABS brakes and electric windows, costs $11700 less than a Civic hybrid. It is rated for 42 mpg on the highway. An LX sedan, closer in equipment level to the hybrid, sells for $20300 in Canada, still a full $8200 less than the hybrid. A top-of-the-line EX is $21800.

Personally, if I didn't want a diesel, I'd find the new Civic EX damned attractive. It's still $6500 less than a hybrid. I drive 60,000 km/year (37000 miles). I figure real world economy of the hybrid would be about 10 mpg better (keeping in mind our tough winters). At today's gas prices, that's $650 per year. In other words, it would take me 10 years to catch up with the hybrid's initial investment. Since I rarely keep a car that long (370,000 miles is a lot of miles), even I, who with a very long commute, would never recoup my investment.

You could also do the same exercise with a Corolla vs Prius although the Prius is somewhat more upmarket than a Corolla.

I joked recently that hybrids were for those who flunked math. The reality is somewhat less prosaic. Hybrids are for people with enough disposable income that they can afford to sacrifice value in order to get better mileage. For many people, value sacrificing value is not an option, and for those people, there are still decent, low-pollution and relatively economical cars out there.

YMMV, all my figures are based on Canadian models and prices. You guys south of the border have nice tax breaks in some parts of the country which will help the hybrid's case.

I must admit that even I, a diesel fan, am taking a hard look at the new Civics and would certainly have it on my list if I were trading today. The new Civic's highway rating is the same as our diesel Passat.

Mike G.
Canada

Mike, Let's take a look at your post.

"A VW Jetta GLS TDI sells, in Canada at least, for a MSRP that is about $1400 less than a Honda Civic Hybrid"

MSRP for the Jetta TDI is $21,740
http://config.vw.com/autodata/config...CQ&model=jetta

MSRP for the new HCH is $21,850:
http://automobiles.honda.com/models/...rDetected=True

The difference is about $100.
But are you getting a similarly equipped car?
Let's check.
http://autos.yahoo.com/newcars/volks...TgwM0cMF?p=all

You won't get these on that VW:

AT-PEZ CARB Emissions
100K (or more) Tuneup
CVT
Double wishbone rear suspension
EPA of 49/51
Cheaper Regular Unleaded fuel
Remote Trunk Release
Rear Spoiler
Steering wheel Cruise, Radio & Nav control
Seat Back Pocket
Remote Fuel Filler release
Climate Control
Drivers Footrest
160-Watt AM/FM/XM/CD Stereo
with MP3/WMA playback and MP3 jack
and CD Text Display, and digital
audio card reader
Speed sensitive volume control
Beautiful unique gauges
2 individual Trip meters
Hybrid system (Battery, motor, controller etc)
Exterior temperature indicator
2 independant fuel consumption displays
Door/Trunk open indicators
2 Airbag off indicators
Dual stage dual threshold front airbags
Occupant detection system for front airbags
Child restraint tethers (LATCH)
Emergency trunk opener

You had mentioned:
"You can get 50 mpg on the highway if you drive at the speed limit, and with a large fuel tank capacity, we've seen range hit 800 miles"

I get about 50MPG in my '04HCH with cruise control locked on the freeway as well. I can do better without it, and with its standard fuel tank I get about 900 miles per tank.

If you google search MPG on both cars you'll find the typical, average driver gets about equal MPG with both vehicles.

About your Civic comment:
"A top-of-the-line EX is $21800"
At least you did mention it's closest model, the EX and as you suggested is about the same as an HCH.
Should I post the features included in an HCH but not with an EX?

Here in the U.S. there are tax incentives to buying a hybrid vehicle, and I've personally disolved the initial investment in well under 2 years.

If your aim was to trash the HCH and glorify the TDI then let me mention a few things.

For about the same amount of money you can buy a VW which statistically lasts only a fraction of the life of many other manufacturers and is plaged with continuing major problems such as fire and safety, along with a host of other quality troubles.
I can post links if you like, but google and find an endless sea of troubles.
Then to top it off, you can pay about 50 cents more for a gallon of fuel- at least here in our area.

I've already posted the best dollar for mile vehicle isn't a hybrid, but it's not diesel either.
A $10K car costs alot less than a $22K VW,
and you'd have to drive that diesel for at least 310 years and 5 million miles to cover the initial investment.

"However, it is designed well below Civic, and more below HCH.
Since this is below even a Civic DX, there is no comparisson."

Yea, but can the Civic do this

http://www.honda.co.jp/Fit/showroom/utility/index.html

I love the fact that a econo vehicle can be so versatile.

"If your aim was to trash the HCH and glorify the TDI then let me mention a few things. "

Actually I was glorifying the non-hybrid Civics. You say the top-of-the-line EX is "about the same" price as the HCH. Not in Canada it ain't. The EX costs about $6000 less.

That's not small change in my books.

Mike G.

Toyota Canada Site on the Yaris Fuel Economy

http://www.toyota.ca/cgi-bin/WebObje...124040e%2ehtml

Cool Video Link on the Yaris

http://www.toyota.ca/cgi-bin/WebObje...5f1%5fe%2ehtml