// Diesel vs. Hybrid: A Point Missed - Page 11
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  1. #101

    Diesel vs. Hybrid: A Point Missed

    Ok Steve...one can find links to back up anything
    one like to promote on the internet. I owned
    a VW Rabbit 82 and Passat 80 both of them diesels. I bought them used and owned them for
    several years. Junked the Rabbit after being hit
    the first time in my driveway by my neighbor
    and the second time by a fellow who went thru a
    stop sign. The engine was in great shape. Never gave me problems. I had about 160000 miles on it.
    The Dasher gave up when the oil pump froze (thats
    not a diesel problem). My TDI runs great, but I do
    agree that diesels have a problem with the poor
    quality diesel we have in the US. Modern diesel
    engines based on near or sulphur free diesel fuel
    like what the Japanese and Europeans have clogs
    up using high sulphur diesel fuel. Every few years
    the CCV system and intake manifold have to be
    cleaned or inspected. On a VW TDI it can be done
    by the owner, but when near sulphur free diesel
    goes on the market soon this problem will be
    solved. Another solution is to use biodiesel.

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  3. #102

    Diesel vs. Hybrid: A Point Missed

    Another point for diesel Steve...
    Look at " GTL Shell" in keyword.
    This will give us almost unlimited and clean diesel.

  4. #103

    Diesel vs. Hybrid: A Point Missed

    Ok firstly, diesel is also about 10k times more reliable than a conventional engine, and especially more reliable than a hybrid/conventional engine combo. Hybrids cost more for comparative mpg.

    Result: Your hybrid will fall appart before it starts saving you money, and your diesel will start saving you money immiedetly, and last more than twice as long and continue to save money.

    I dont buy any of JD powers crap about quality, VW is probably a little bit worse than honda or the american car companies but i am sure the hybrid stuff wont last as long as the diesel.

    The batteries in the hybrids have to be replaced a lot at a cost greater than the cost of gasoline. Making these batteries is more harm to the enviorment than the gasoline that it saves.

    A turbo diesel plus a cvt or 6 speed auto hasnt really been done yet and that would yield even greater fuel efficiency.

    Hybrids in my oppinion are more of a scam than a reality.

    Toyota pushes them because they have a virtual monoply on the parts and components, even honda is forced to buy their batteries from panasonic or sanyo which are both partially owned by toyota.

    GM, DCX, and BMW are working on a hybrid system of their own with their own components so they dont have to depend on toyota. Ford is developing one independantly.

    the main reason why the batteries cost so much is because toyota is making huge proffits on them.

  5. #104

    Diesel vs. Hybrid: A Point Missed

    I think Joe is right on the money. The current hybrid
    techology is a scam. Unless they find a way to make
    it much cheaper, the batteries lasting to 200 k or
    real cheap to replace it will continue to need
    subsidies and favors (like using HOV lanes) to stay
    in business. As far as durability of a diesel engine
    ask some boat owners what they prefer.
    There is no comparison. I think JD Powers is full of
    it too. I believe Audi and VW has a diesel engine
    with a six speed DSG transmission. MB has a diesel
    mated to a 7speed automatic.
    Here is a link for Georgia regarding "durability"
    of diesel.
    http://www.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/basics/jtb_diesel_engine.pdf#search='diesel%20engines%20m ore%20durable%20than%20gasoline'

  6. #105

    Diesel vs. Hybrid: A Point Missed

    While I appreciate the passion that you diesel fanatics show, I think you really need to look at a bit of the science behind hybrids before being so negative about them. You will see that:

    1. today's hybrids barely take advantage of the electric part of their drive train.

    2. the diesel is clearly the most efficient use of fossil fuel that we know of today for vehicle use.

    3. adding an electric drive train to a vehicle will not only reduce the wear on the ICE (Internal Combustion Engine - diesel or gasoline) but will enhance it's performance and economy.

    4. the more torque and HP in the electric part, the better the performance and economy.

    5. a diesel ICE stands the most to gain from a hybrid drive train since (despite the improvements seen in the TDI) firing control under differing conditions is the biggest challeng to diesel efficiency. A constant speed, constant load diesel is extremely efficient, while the electric drive train is very good at changing loads and speeds. If one puts the two together, one gets a pretty impressive machine.

    6. The hybrid can be made cheaper than pure ICE if one gets rid of the transmission, puts in a smaller ICE, and simplifies the complicated engine controls that are required for the ICE to perform cleanly and economically under changing driving conditions.

    So my request for you diesel folks is not to attack hybrids but instead, continue to promote diesels while letting the people who prefer hybrids promote them. Eventually, the auto industry may see the light and combine the two to give us truly impressive vehicles with even better economy and performance than what we have today from either camp.

  7. #106

    Diesel vs. Hybrid: A Point Missed

    "fanatics" ? this blog taking a new turn?
    if we are "fanatics" what about some of the
    hybrid enthusiasts?

  8. #107

    Diesel vs. Hybrid: A Point Missed

    exEV1 driver wrote:
    "3. adding an electric drive train to a vehicle will not only reduce the wear on the ICE (Internal Combustion Engine - diesel or gasoline) but will enhance it's performance and economy. "

    Now that's something I've been wondering about, and I'm a little skeptical. It seems to me that all the stopping and starting that hybrids do to their ICEs would increase the wear on the engine, not the other way around. Can anybody set the record straight, for either gasoline or diesel engines? Thanks!

  9. #108

    Diesel vs. Hybrid: A Point Missed

    The Lupo TDI 3 liter (for its fuel consumption in L/100 km) in Europe has auto-stop: the engine shuts down as soon as the car stops, and restarts automatically when you press on the accelerator to start moving again, for example in heavy traffic or at stop lights.

    Not an expert, but I suspect that the main additional wear-and-tear would be on the starter. The issue with wear-and-tear on the engine itself is more related to cold starts when deficient lubrication increases friction and wear of all bearing surfaces (cylinders, rings, crank and crank bearings, valves and valve guides, etc).

    The lack of lubrication is largely due to the oil's increased viscosity when cold, but also might come from dilution by fresh gasoline if the engine runs significantly richer on a cold start. The latter phenomenon wouldn't occur on a diesel (oil, not gasoline).

    With cars using auto-stop, be it diesel or gas, you're starting a warm engine. So other than some additional load on the starter and battery, I doubt that there is significant additional wear, but I also doubt that there's significant improvement either as an engine at idle should undergo very little wear if it's in tune. At idle, the RPMs are very low as are the cylinder pressures.

    Personally I think auto-stop is a non-issue for wear (either pro or con) as long as the car is well-maintained (fluid levels, oil changes, filter changes). City driving, with auto stop or not, is always going to be harder on the engine than highway driving at steady state (a situation that diesels especially thrive on).

  10. #109

    Diesel vs. Hybrid: A Point Missed


    The wimpy garbage that is being sold today as hybrid only barely uses the electric drive to reduce wear and tear. Today, the only reduction in wear and tear is that the ICE (Internal Combustion Engine) doesn't have to push as hard when accelerating and climbing, thus reducing pressure on the rings as well as reducing excess heating of the engine. I agree that the constant stopping and starting may actually add some wear although, as Mike says, starting a warm engine isn't too bad.

    In mature hybrid technology, where the electric drive becomes primary, the ICE is used simply to charge the batteries and to handle long-range driving, the ICE would rarely come on -- like only a few times per week under normal urban and suburban usage. When it does come on, the ICE would run at constant speed, constant load, for long periods of time until the battery gets to some desired state of charge (maybe 80%). When the desired state of charge is reached, the ICE will shut off and the care will run on pure electric until the state of charge gets down to some lower limit (maybe 20%).

    A vehicle as I'm describing above should get about 100 miles per gallon of fuel, depending upon the size and aerodynamics of the vehicle.

    But this kind of hybrid doesn't exist today for various reasons so for now, we'll just have to settle for the lame compromises that are actually on the car lots. Again, I request that you go ahead and demand whatever you prefer (diesel ICE or hybrid) from the dealers and make sure you tell them that its all about the gas mileage and performance and that you're willing to pay for improvements in both. This market pressure will eventually push them to build the right thing.

  11. #110

    Diesel vs. Hybrid: A Point Missed

    hey ex-EV1 Driver

    the "mature" hybrid vehicle you speak of... THAT is what I want to buy. Why is it not being produced?
    GM or Ford could produce their trucks and SUV's this way and sell millions of them with MPG 3x higher than it is now.
    Think about it, our oil imports cut to 25% of what it is now. The actual price of Oil will decrease because of less demand. The US trade deficit will decrease.
    US foreign policy will be less swayed by the thought of the oil being held hostage.

    What I will do if elected President, is get the R&D of the big 3 (or 2) geared up to produce this vehicle in 12 short months. At a competitive price.

    I know it will take a while to get the old vehicles replaced by the new, but this will give us time to figure out how to replece the tax base.

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