Reality check- hybrids, fuel efficiency

Hybrid technology is a good option, but it is probably more important to change the general public's attitudes about driving cooperatively rather than competitively. Most auto and truck commercials stress power, speed, and aggressive driving behavior, and actually belittle those who choose better fuel economy. I have a 1998 Saturn SL1, which I bought for $3400 in July 2004, and have averaged 35 MPG. Recently, after changing spark plugs, fully inflating the tires, and going on a long trip, I got over 45 MPG. It has over 100,000 miles and runs fine, with enough power to accelerate safely and exceed any posted legal speed limit. Hybrids are presently too expensive for me to consider. I like the technology, but overall energy conservation must come from a change in driving attitudes and simple, common-sense vehicles.

Paul,
You make very good sense on all points and applaud you on both your purchase and your achievement.

Before I bought my HCH I was completely ignorant in the facts regarding fuel efficiency, as is 99.99% of all drivers.
I thought a car only got what it got for MPG, almost no matter how you drive it. With that thought I only did 17-18MPG in our '94 Dodge Spirit 4cyl driving like a maniac. I drove all my cars that way because 90 is the same as 55MPH because you get there sooner right?
Nuts how I was mistaken, and it cost me big dollars.

You're right about drivers attitude in general but I fear that it will take more than what is available to change the mindset.

Personally all I can do is encourage people to do better in whatever they drive, and let them know of my own achievements. (60-65MPG) I myself know of other drivers who are doing much better than me and find it inspiring. A goal.

My HCH trained me how to drive for true efficiency. If I would have bought another car it would have been "just another car" and no doubt I'd still be driving 90.
No incentive to change my wasteful ways.

We used to get 15-18MPG in our other vehicle, an '01 Grand Caravan. But applying what we've learned in our HCH that figure is now mid 20's.

Most of the time it's wise to buy a used car but in my case I try to keep them on the road for 10 years and +320K miles.
I wanted the most fuel efficient 5 passenger car available, still at a reasonable cost ($18.5K) and the nicest one available in the small car line.

Anyway you are a smart shopper and keep up the good efficiency. My only suggestion would be to fine tune and increase your MPG as it can be done, then visit www boards that feature Saturn cars and let them know of what you are doing.

Some will jeer, others will take the challenge and take your advice and apply them to their own cars.
A thank you note is most satisfying from someone you've helped.

you bring up again a reason why EVERY car in usa should be provided with a mileage gage. that feedback alone will likely lift most cars 2 to 5 MPG.

no hybrid required to get these easy gains.

see ya

steve

Just completed my first long distance tank.

883 miles driven, 13.31 gallons to full.
66.34 calculated MPG.
Dash said 62.4.

Not bad.
2004 HCH CVT

We would drive a lot less .. and use a lot less fuel... if we all lived closer to work and to each otehr. I bet the per-person fuel consumption of somebody living in downtown Boston or New York is very low, compared with somebody driving 2 hours to and from work. Americans have decided not to live in cities anymore; they want rural areas with bigger yards and safer neighborhoods, and they will pay to the nose to get them. I will make an uneducated guess that most Europeans have very short commutes. If somebody has a short commute, they would walk or bike to work or to the store more often, and the fuel efficiency of their vehicle would matter less. And if you live in a rural area, it isnt unreasonable to use a pickup for commuting, since you will need it. Just consider that most people must pay 500-1000 a year to insure each vehicle, so having an additional car with additional costs to save 500 or 800 a year on gas doesnt make financial sense. How many 4-door pickups do we see owned by residents of a downtown metro areas? Parking, costs, and ease of use of public transit discourage it.

Now, if the cost to purchase and maintain and insure and fuel an additional hybrid or electric car was notably LESS than the cost of just paying for extra fuel for the family utility truck, then things might chage. I have a hunch that even at $100 a barrel we still wont be there.

Solve the root problems of urban sprawl and out of control insurance costs in the United States, and you will be playing a part in "Saving the planet".

I visited the States a couple of months ago and drove a friends Prius. As an electric car proponent, I had been looking forward to this for months

It was a lot of fun watching the light show on the power-train use screen. Not a bad drive at all and seemed powerful enough.

I was disappointed overall though, for the following reasons: It did not really run on pure electric drive much, in fact, hardly at all. The car average just 38 MPG during my 20 mile drive. You cannot plug it in but must use a small gas engine (perhaps the most fuel inefficent way possible) to charge the batteries.

Anyone in the USA heard of an Audi A2? With a 1.2 litre diesel it is actually rated at near 100 MPG. I drove one of these the other day and average 71 MPG during a similar drive to my Prius test drive.

Comfortable travel for four adults in a quality German car with the real possibility of 70 MPG. Why on earth isn't someone building a hybrid Diesel! One that you can plug in would be ideal

"Americans have decided not to live in cities anymore; they want rural areas with bigger yards and safer neighborhoods, and they will pay to the nose to get them"

I'm not sure about it being more expensive but you do site some other reasons for our rural home. A few years ago our family bought a 2,800sq ft 5 bedroom/3 fl bath new home on a 1 acre lot in rural N. Georgea. We paid about $142K for it. The same property "in town" would easily go upward of 450K. City and county taxes are much lower and less general restrictions outside the larger cities. Among other things, our family enjoys clean air, picturesque skies, wild grassy fields, forest, peace and quiet.
The cost of fueling our old car was terrible so we bought our hybrid car, and I learned how to drive it.
Most everyone I know in our area commutes with smaller cars.

The pickup thing...
While it is true that many people like the pickup trucks many more people are driving other kinds of vehicles- the vast majority are smaller Corolla-Civic-Malibu size cars and a number of SUV's.
(At least here around Atlanta)

Myself in case we also have a Grand Caravan both for hauling things and general family comfort.
But it would soak us dry if it was our daily commuter vehicle.

I haven't seen any real number of inner city pickup trucks....a few large vehicles but the vast majority is smaller cars- probably for the parking issue as you've mentioned.

no one has mentioned $2000 tax break. also, in florida you can drive on the hov lane with a hybrid. I'd rather give my money to japanese r&d than to two faced middle east countries.

I heard years ago that Toyota plans to offer a hybrid of every model by the year 2010. The magazine Auto Age reports that Toyota will introduce 12 new hybrid models over the next 24 months. And the newspaper Asahi Shimbun reports:

Toyota to double hybrid car output
07/06/2005
The Asahi Shimbun
Toyota Motor Corp. plans to double its production of gas-electric hybrid vehicles to 500,000 units in 2006 from the 2005 level to meet rising global demand, especially in North America, company sources said.
Toyota, the leader in the field of hybrid technology, expects demand for such vehicles to increase amid rising oil prices and improved performance of the autos.
The increase in production will focus on the Prius, Toyota's main hybrid passenger car, as well as on sport utility vehicles (SUVs) Harrier and Kluger. By the end of 2006, Toyota plans to add hybrid versions of its luxury sedans sold under the Lexus brand.
Toyota affiliates making hybrid-vehicle parts, such as batteries, have reinforced their manufacturing facilities, making it much easier for Toyota to obtain key components.
Toyota plans to increase monthly production of hybrid Harriers and hybrid Klugers by 50 percent to 12,000 units each from September at Toyota Motor Kyushu Inc.'s factory in Fukuoka Prefecture.
The Tsutsumi Plant in Toyota, Aichi Prefecture, will increase production of the Prius by 20 percent to 30 percent.
The hybrid SUVs have become popular in North America since their introduction there in March. But consumers still have to wait three to four months to receive a hybrid Harrier.
Global demand for hybrid vehicles has grown so much that Toyota will start overseas production of the cars next year for the first time.
In 2006, the company intends to start production of several thousand Prius cars a year at its factory jointly established with China FAW Group Corp. in Changchun, China. Toyota will also build 50,000 hybrid versions of the Camry annually at its factory in Kentucky starting in 2006.(IHT/Asahi: July 6,2005)
Any of the Georga members know Dr. Walter in Sautee?

To use less gas: Drive less.

Or, drive a little shoe-box car with a whimpy little engine.
I drive a Nissan Xterra with the V6 and manual transmission. I often haul things in it, or pull a trailer. I work from home, do I don't do a normal commute. For those of you with long, daily commutes, my sympathy. Seems like a big waste of time, particularly if you're driving slower than anything with a Hemi in it. For the record, I do often get around on bicycle too. Go figure.
After all the rhetoric, if there really was a national imperitive to reduce fuel consumption, slapping a fat tax on gas would 'natually' acheive it.
And for what it's worth, don't forget about the huge gasoline taxes that are common in Europe. Since it is taxed per gallon, cars there all use high octane. High octane yeilds more power per gallon when run in a suitable higher compression engine.
Just another thing to consider in the comparing apples to oranges discussion.

Correct me if I'm wrong but are you saying that we shouldn't buy fuel efficient vehcles because you personally drive a large 16MPG hog?

Are you gloating for working at home while wishng a large fat tax on the rest of us?

Are you saying that Europeans are driving less or just wish a large, Socialistic bloated U.S. tax?

In Australia (Melbourne), the waiting time after ordering from the dealer for a Toyota Prius is a minimum of 3 months. There are two models available (sic) 1. basic priced at AU$42,000 and 2. same basic but with GPS, bluetooth and keyless entry at AU$48,000. By the time you pay dealer delivery costs, insurance, registration etc, add another AU$4,000 or more for each model. Petrol this week is around the AU$1.25 per litre (Our exchange rate with the US$ is hovering at US$0.77. Now as the Americans say....go figure!

we interest import hybrid car .request quote.

we interest import hybrid car .request quote.

The real beauty of a hybrid is if it is modified to be a plug-in hybrid. Since most commutes are 30 miles or less a plug-in hybrid can dramatically decrease the use of oil since 97% our electrical power grid energy comes from other sources. If we start installing wind turbines in high wind locations, adding some photovoltic sources to the grid, and add coal gasification to the equation, America will be nearly ready to declare energy independence. The environment wins and so do we.

If we really want to destroy the environment then we should keep funding terrorism through oil money. Or a conflict with China over the last remaining oil in the Middle East.

california is currently running on around 11% "green" energy with a goal of reaching 20% in the next several years. wind, various solar schemes, hydro systems.

other states need to start adopting these goals & stop waiting for the USA government to do this instead.

most states are running on less then 3% green energy.

see ya

I have to somewhat agree that it is not necessarily the hybrid technology that makes these cars get great gas mileage, but the fact that they are small and use smaller engines (for the most part, as the civic is the same as a regular civic, for example.)

I had a 1985 Sentra. A very small, slow car. I ALLWAYS got 40mpg in that car no matter what. That was even using it for pizza delivery, or drive like a young punk. Why did it do so well? It was a small, under powered, nothing that you didn't need car.

My girlfriend has a 90 something Protégé. She ALLWAYS gets 40 MPG as well. Once again, it's an underpowered car. It's not small, but has better technology than my 85 Sentra (fuel injection for example).

But, "nobody" wants underpowered cars. So sure enough, you are going to see hybrids with "power" and we'll be back to where we started. Hell, it they are putting them in SUV's and Accords that only get 30 MPG, they are already on that route. It's just a path to more efficient power.

And the question still hasn't been answered: "Why not a diesel hybrid?"

Nevermind about the hybrid diesel, I'm reading all about it in the "Hybrid vs. Diesel Debate" tread.

If everyone drove sensible cars like most Europeans, we probably woudn't even need hybrid technology. I cringe when I hear things like "0-60 in 10 seconds is slow", when we're talking acceleration, not speed, on a car that can easily exceed 100 mph. Our TDIs do not do better than 10 seconds 0-60 but who cares? (and with the torque, mid-range passing is excellent).

But back to speed. A bit of simple arithmetic: here in Canada (Quebec) it is routine to drive 20 km/h over the speed limit, even on short drives. How many times have I been passed by some idiot doing 20 over only to be next to him at the next light? Too many.

On a short (say under 30 km) trip, driving 20 over the limit will, on paper, save you 3.64 minutes (110 km/h vs 90 km/h on a two-lane rural road). I say in theory because in reality, on a 2-lane road, you routinely have to slow down for other traffic, cyclists, traffic lights, curves, etc, so going 20 over the limit does not mean a 20 km/h higher average speed, but more likely only 2-5 km/h higher average speed. Real-world, the savings is probably no more than a minute or so; I've done tests that bear that out.

On a longer trip, say 100 km +, the time savings is 10 minutes per 100 km, assuming a steady cruising speed of 20 km/h over the local 100 km/h speed limit on autouroutes. But here again, traffic, stops, construction zone slowdowns, etc, contribute to make the increase in average speed somewhat lower than 20 km/h. On my daily commute (104 km each way), in fact, the difference is more like only 5 minutes per 100 km.

How much does that 5 minutes cost you? In my case, with my diesel, about $1 per day in extra fuel costs, or $ 5 per week. Which is $250 per year, which more than pays for the $225 per year license fee for our car. Again, real-world tests.

To get real gains in time you have to drive at significantly faster (read: unsafe) speeds like 85-90 mph. If you really need to save time, fly! (or in Europe, take one of their fantastic high-speed trains).

Mike G.

Question folks:
Is there a better hybrid model for drivers located in Southern North America where the a/c is (almost) a necessity? Does the a/c always trigger the gas engine? Without a hybrid convertible, you really need the a/c down south. Any data, details, specific information and suggestions are appreciated!
-Adam
tiedyedmind

Adam --

Don't know about other hybrids, but in my FEH I have the option for 3 different types of a/c. 1) regular a/c, which shuts off when the vehicle goes into EV mode; 2) maximum efficiency a/c, which recirculates the cool internal air and also shuts off when the vehicle goes into EV mode; and, 3) full-time a/c, which means the gas engine is on all the time.

Since the only time the car runs in total ev mode in my travels in when stopped at stoplights or traveling under 25 mph on city streets, option #2 works 90% of the time. For me, the only time I tend to use #3 is when I'm driving home into the setting sun, and sitting at stoplights during commute time for multiple light changes. Even with that I've still averaged 28-30 mph this summer.

Hope this helps!

The 2004 and later Prius has an a/c that is all electric and cools quite well while not dragging efficiency down very much. Last winter, I would usually get around 48-49 mpg; this summer (heat index just hit 110) I've been getting between 43 and 46 in my own car and between 42 and 44 in the carpool Prius. The Prius also has temperature controls on the steering wheel, so you don't have to go poking at the center console to change the temperature.

Like pretty much any vehicle in real heat, you should open all the windows when you first get in and run the a/c full tilt until it starts to feel cool, about 15 seconds. Then roll up the windows and drive away. And do everything you can to park in shade, even if you have to walk a little farther to get to where you're going.

From an earlier post:
"How much you benefit from a hybrid depends on how and where you drive it. You will benefit less if you

1. Drive very short distances in cold weather
2. Drive extremely fast
3. Drive up mountains
4. Drive with your AC blasting all the time.
5. If you drive right up to the light and jam your brakes vs slow stops. "

Funny thing is I do all these things in my 2002 VW Golf TDI (yes, it's a DIESEL) and my TDI *STILL* consistently gets it's published EPA numbers of around 42MPG/City and 49MPG/Hwy. I consistenly get around 45MPG and go around 700 miles between fillups while driving it aggressively.

I also did some simple power mods (chip tuning, bigger injectors) to it which brought it's stock 90HP and 155ft-lbs torque up to 130HP and 235ft-lbs. It now has butt-kicking torque and can beat the pants off a lot of gassers in a drag race. The neat thing is my mileage actually IMPROVED slightly!

After logging 170k miles and still going strong (actually doing better than when new), my TDI is definitely a long-term keeper.

I hope the carmakers are successful in meeting the tighter emission standards in 2007 using ULSD. Honda and BMW have announced plans to have DIESEL cars here in 2007. I'd love to see the Honda Accord DIESEL in the USA. A Civic DIESEL (already in Europe) would also be cool.

I'd buy an Audi A2 TDI (gets near 100MPG w/DIESEL) or a VW Lupo TDI (rated 81MPG) in a heartbeat if they were available here.

Too bad we're not getting the 77MPG DIESEL version of the Zap/Mercedes/SMART car. We have to settle for the lower MPG gasser version instead.

DIESELS Rule; gassers drool. :)

For the un-named post above:

Some of your points are good but you lost me with the diesel.

My unmodified HCH is routinely going over 900 miles/tank and mid-upper 60's MPG.
My last tank went to 941 miles and 13.6 gallons which comes to 69.2MPG.

Most people see around 45.

Are you aware of the recent Prius marathon?
http://www.greenhybrid.com/discuss/p...light=marathon

Each of these drivers easily exceeded 100MPG in the unmodified car.

The unmodifeid Insight averages about 66MPG, and many hover or exceed 100MPG.

The jetta is rated at 36MPG combined.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/20812.shtml

This is on par with Corolla or regular Civic.

VW does not last nearly as long as gassers.
Look at the used cars at Auto Trader.
http://www.autotrader.com

The last time I did a search per mileage there were 2 pages of Hondas with +300K miles, 7 pages of cars 200-300K range, and 18 pages of cars for sale with 100-200K range.

Toyota was very similar.

I did the same search for VW and 1 car had 310miles, the rest of the first page had +200 miles and 1-1/2 page with over 100K miles.

VW has a less than poor overal quality track record, and most turn smokey and/or diesel smelly after a few years.

Wonder why the Lupo won't sell here?
You can have a car that goes 0-60 in 18 seconds.
Not much market here for such a dangerously slow car. (Not yet anyway)
I've read some Lupo's have been modified to less than 10sec but MPG drops below 30?

Diesels deliver only above average MPG, poor stigma and occasional concern finding a filling station.
No, personally I'm not drueling.

most of the exmple hybrids discussed are early birds in this strive for technological solution to fuel consumption. I dont find the results as attractive as the possibilities. For I come to this debate from the view of one who has worked on diesel/electric submarines, which have some profoundly different approaches. Where the electric drive is configured behind a diesel powered generator plant, and peak needs come from the battery supply (yes on the surface). NO rigid mechanical drive is used, and only rigged for emergency use.
Given this, the fuel efficiency of a constant speed diesel plant will far outstrip any petrol plant u can describe, and be smaller to boot.
So if this where a car, it would be slower and suffer in acceleration i hear the sceptics say. The facts are this, electric propulsion in acceleration is better met by electric drive, for acceleration is from torque, and speed from power. Where rather odly, the electric motor can provide max torque at start (and sythesis can multiply this by a factor of 4) against a petrol engine, that needs to get on the power, to provide any useful torque at all. Seen in this way, all that one needs to do is calculate the torque required for user friendly acceleration (recall the GM electric effort would out accelerate all but the Corvette) Yes HP would be short, and hence max speed quite some way from the 120mph u all seem used to :)
Im wondering at what point some of u guys will find it acceptable to start saving on fuel, when theres non left? when its $5 a gall, $10, $20?
think about it

For Steve above:

I'm getting better than 36 mpg combined with an automatic Passat TDI diesel. Transport Canada numbers for the previous generation Jetta with manual transmission (of which we also own an example, a station wagon), is 44.6 mpg (combined average). The automatic is rated at 39.6 combined.

I have NEVER had an issue with finding diesel fuel. Certainly with a range of 1000 km+ per tank you have plenty of time to plan ahead.

I consistently meet or beet the rated numbers on both our TDIs, without any special driving techniques other than to drive smoothly at speeds of up to 70 mph, a speed I consider reasonable and prudent in my part of the world.

Neither of my TDIs are modified except for euro-spec headlights on the Jetta and bi-xenon headlights on the Passat (all OEM and legal in Canada).

Can one honestly say that hybrid drivers, not driving in marathons, consistently get the high numbers you cite? I hear of much disappointment with hybrid owners not getting the rated numbers. Most TDI owners DO get the rated numbers.

As far as comparing to Corollas or Civics, TDIs have safety features not even available on most Corollas or Civics: ABS on 4 disc brakes on even the most basic models; front and side airbags with available side-curtain airbags; and electronic stability program (ESP) available on even the most humble Golf CL for only $400 CDN. Not even available as an option on ANY Civic or Corolla. Drive in a winter storm once with ESP and you'll never want a car without it again, it's that remarkable.

I won't even bother to compare a TDI to an Insight. Suffices to say that an Insight is useless as family transportation. If we are to make comparisons with the Insight, a smarter choice would be the Smart (no pun intended), another two-seat urban runabout.

I'm not entirely against hybrids if that 's what it takes to get people into more fuel efficient cars. Moreover hybrids probably DO make better sense for city driving and short trips where regenerative braking shines. However some hybrids are highly questionable. For example you'd probably be better off overall, getting a 4-cyl Accord than a hybrid V6 Accord. The mileage difference will only be about 5 mpg on average, but the car will cost thousands less and you still get a ULEV engine.

As for smokey VW diesels, I have yet to see a severely smoking TDI (about 50% of VW's sales in Canada are TDIs). What you say is true of the older indirect-injection diesels that relied on entirely mechanically adjusted injection pumps.

I will agree though that VW reliability has been spottier than either Honda or Toyota. Our current TDIs have been 100% reliable in about 50,000 km of driving each but our first TDI (99.5) wasn't so great.

A response for the (Un-named) above:

You had mentioned in your previous post:
“I have NEVER had an issue with finding diesel fuel. Certainly with a range of 1000 km+ per tank you have plenty of time to plan ahead.”

You make my point …with a gasser you don’t have to plan ahead. Where ever there is a station there is fuel.
Also, 1000KM = 621 miles which is good but...
Personally, I've beat that by 320 miles.

“Can one honestly say that hybrid drivers, not driving in marathons, consistently get the high numbers you cite?"

-Yes-
While some are disappointed, 99% love their car and get close if not better than the EPA rating.
Shall I suggest the multitude of Jetta complaints ranging from windows falling out to glow plug failures to filler tube fires and successful lemmon claims?

“(ABS and ESP) available on even the most humble Golf CL for only $400 CDN. Not even available as an option on ANY Civic”

Yes, the Hybrid Civic has both of these and many other features that the regular Civics do not.
Not for $400 extra though, it comes as standard equipment.

http://automobiles.honda.com/models/...e=Civic+Hybrid

“hybrids probably DO make better sense for city driving and short trips where regenerative braking shines”
Actually, regenerative braking accounts for only about 5% recharge. Prius is the best choice for city and shorter commutes, while the HCH is a great longer distance runner.
I commute my HCH almost 100 miles a day. 50% is highway, 45% freeway and the rest is terrible 5:00PM rush hour Atlanta traffic.

The Accord question-
While the Accord Hybrid offers scant MPG benefit, it does offer the highest performance Accord they make… with improved economy.

While most people won’t get near my MPG, can you (Or anyone you personally know) consistently pull almost 1,500Km tanks consecutively in a stock Jetta…and with an automatic transmission?

Honestly, I’m not anti-diesel and can understand the excitement by their owners.
Should I post my mileage and say that hybrids are better than diesel in a popular Jetta forum and point out all the problems associated with diesel autos?
No, I’m not going to do that.

You're more than welcome to debate hybrid vs diesel over at www.tdiclub.com.

No doubt some folks won't take kindly to it but the smarter ones will realize that hybrids have their place and that the world will be a better place without great honking V8 SUVs. Personally I think it's great that we can debate two realistic fuel-saving alternatives. What's wrong with that?

My point basically is that hybrids don't make sense for everyone. In normal, long-range highway driving, with normal traffic conditions, I believe diesels have the edge. That's the type of driving I do. In the city, it's a different game. I can get on the highway in our Jetta, flick on the cruise control at 70 mph, and get 60 mpg (imperial, 50 mpg US), without even thinking about special driving techniques. I can do the same in the Passat and get 50 mpg (imperial, 42 US).

On the other hand, you can just drive in the city without worrying about shift points to stay in the torque band; starts-and-stops help you with regenerative braking.

However, one reason why you see TONS of TDIs up here in Canada vs hybrids, is because of simple economics. We do not get tax breaks for driving hybrids. The price premium for a hybrid over a non-hybrid is prohibitive. For most folks they will never recover their investment.

On the other hand, a Jetta TDI costs a mere $1500 more than a gas model, and a Passat TDI cost only $500 more than an automatic gas Passat. If you drive 60,000 km a year like I do, that's an attraction no hybrid can match ($7000+ for a HCH over a regular Civic LX).

Hopefully though like with all new technology, mass distribution will eventually bring the price differential down to a level that makes hybrids attractive. Honestly, I think this would be a Good Thing as it will give us another fuel-efficient alternative. That way everyone would have an efficient vehicle available that's tailored to their driving needs: city vs. highway.

Mike G.

The attraction of hybrids is in the possibilities. Diesel is limited as hydrocarbons still must be burned and the potential economic energy sources are limited. I've looked through the bio-diesel arguments and find them almost as unsatisfying as the "hydrogen economy. Diesel is a little more efficient than standard gas but mostly gets better economy because a gallon of diesel has more energy than gas. So diesel advocates are to a certain extent fooling themselves about efficiency. For example, a methanol engine can be more efficient in turning all available chemical energy into motion than a diesel, but will never match the diesels MPG because it contains less energy.

Gasoline/electric hybrids can easily become plug-in hybrids, which is where hybrids get really interesting. Now your energy sources become potentially very diverse since not only can electricity come from any source including wind, hydro, or coal, but a gasoline engine with simple existing modifications can run methanol, ethanol, or any blend of three. I don’t see diesels (other than trucks) having any long term future in the USA. Hybrids on the other hand will have difficulty in Europe where existing tax laws discriminate against the higher weight of hybrids (i.e.- batteries and electric motors).

So lets no follow Europe’s path as it is a dead end that will only transfer our dependence to a different single source energy (mostly Middle Eastern oil!). Soon it will be the Europeans that are questioning why they are not using hybrids like America. It will be nice to see the tables turned.

Actually it's more than the thermal content of diesel. Diesel's thermal content is about 10% better than gasoline. However direct-injection diesels are on average 30% more efficient than an equivalent displacement gas engine (one reason is that there is no need to maintain a stoichiometric ratio of gasoline to air to maintain the combustion process; this in essence means that a gas engine requires a minimum amount of fuel to run at low loads that may actually be greater than the amount of energy required to do the job; a diesel engine does not have this requirement, the injectors can inject precisely the amount of fuel required for the job; and at low loads or idle, a diesel uses a surprisingly small amount of fuel).

Moreover diesel requires less energy to refine as it is lower-grade distillate of petroleum than is gasoline. That's an impact that is not immediately seen by the consumer but certainly is important to consider in the entire hydrocarbon cycle.

Hybrids too use hydrocarbons. Like you I'm skeptical about mass use of biodiesel. However diesel-electric hybrids should be even more efficient than gas-electric hybrids.

Mike G.

Good points. I didn't think about the lower energy requirements of diesel refinement. Can a diesel engine start/stop like a gas engine? What other fuels can a diesel engine run?

Diesel engines can run on your used motor oil, transmission fluid, veggie oil... People put all kinds of stuff in there old Merecedes diesels. I don't think many TDI owners do that though.

You don't necessarily have to have an engine that starts and stops. Just set it up as a dedicated energy source for your electric motor like trains do. I'm not convinced that starting and stopping of the engine is a good thing myself. I would venture to guess that that cuases alot of wear and tear on the engine, causing it to wear out sooner than if that feature didn't exist. So you squeeze a few extra MPG's out of it, but at an increased failure rate. We'll see down the road how long these engines last.

VW tested a very high-mileage versio of the Lupo with a small TDI diesel engine in the hopes of making a "3 liter car", that is, 3 liters/100 km fuel consumption. That's 79 mpg folks!

They succeeded and one trick was to have the engine automatically shut down if stopped at a stop light, and then relight when you pressed the accelerator to go.

My experience with our two diesels is that well-maintained, warm diesel engines will fire instantly. Even deep cold starts go OK (I'm talking down to -40) with modern glow plug technology, though I admit the engine sounds like crap for several minutes. And you do have to take some precautions like turning off unnecessary electrics to make sure all the battery juice goes towards cranking the engine. In "normal" cold weather though, say down to -25, no special precautions are needed. We don't even have block/engine heaters, and we live in Canada.

Is the Prius as safe a car as the new VW Jetta claims itself to be? Does anyone have any reports to refer me to? I am sold on the fuel/electric technology as a step toward a better use of our resources and I need to feel safe on the roads with all those "tanks" that could run amok at any moment on their way to the coffee shop.

Hello

Just jumped over this site.

I'm from Denmark and I am the proud owner of an Audi A2 3L(3L stands fore 3 litre car car = it uses 3 litre diesel to drive 100km)

If you have any qustions about this car, pleace feel free to send me an e-mail. And I will answer.

[email protected]

there is a lot of misconception on fuel efficiency and hybrids. The theory behind hybrids in the city is that by reclaiming a lot of the kinetic energy from the brake system, and returning it to the battery for use on acceleration from a light, and also "coasting" like a bike rider to a stop will more closely emulate never having had to stop. You reuse some of the braking energy towards your acceleration.

The biggest thing about fuel economy isn't what powertrain, diesel, electric, hydrogen, hybrid, whatever, or even the size of the engine-it is the weight of the car, and the speed at which it is travelling.

It takes a certain amount of energy to move a weighted object, even with 100% efficiency. (cars get only 11%)

Hybrid cars from the Japanese were designed from the ground up to be fuel efficient (Insight and Prius).
The other cars (Civic, Explorer, etc) were not initially designed to be fuel efficient, and are being "retrofit".
They are not going to be so efficient. Incidently, the acceleration of the Insight can be much greater, the electric motor is only ever used at half capacity (an oversize motor running slower is more efficient-why they went with that size motor). The car is capable of accelerating much faster, but the engineers decided that it would defeat the purpose of the vehicle, so they made a design consideration.

So, the number one reason for poor gas mileage is weight, and heavy cars are usually poor designs with less thought given to them, structurally as well as mechanically. Think of racing bikes and you'll understand what I'm talking about. Heavy cars equal cheap, easy to make, just like bikes.

Joe,

Weight is one factor but as you hit speeds over 50 mph, you also have to factor in aerodynamics. Drag increases with the square of the speed, and over 50 mph it becomes a very important contributor. The "from the ground up" hybrids like the Prius or Insight (and probably the new Civic) were designed with aerodynamics in mind. High square vehicles like the Escape or Highlander were not.

Mike G.
Canad

here's my bit. I'm not a tree hugger i just hope i'm making a statement when i get my prius "i want somthing different!". detroit has always said u want crazy horsepower, u want shiny rims, u want 0-60 in -2seconds, listen to those pony's, whatever. "I" don't recall saying any of those things. people pay out extra coin for thier leather seats, trail package & power windows. ok, i'm paying a little more for a hybrid because IIIIIIIIIIIIII, I WANT a very efficent vehicle. I WANT to move away from petroleum as much as possible. I WANT to see hybrid technology expanded. I WANT a prius! if detroit makes 1 better i'll buy it. i prefer 2 buy american, but i will not wait till 2010 to buy a detroit car when toyota has 1 now.

I also believe for those of us that are environmentally friendly that it would be very damaging if everyone ran out and bought a hybrid today, because think of the up stream production. When these vehicles are made what goes into the environment? I don't know? I've been driving my chevy for 10.5 years. I plan to drive it into the ground & then buy the most efficent vehicle i can find (don't get those ineffeccient hybrids). trying 2 gain max usfulness out of both vehicles i guess.

As far as getting your money back, i hope i'm not the only 1 that see's this but it's always calculated on a 5 year plan. why? That's about when the payments are up & u can finnaly enjoy the car. i've had my chevy 10 years & trust me i got my $ back& i plan to do the same w/ a prius.

I think big industry is in a panic, b/c if america has such a massive swing in mindset (conserve, efficiency, use for max life) the economy will flux in turn & they will loose big$$. Big oil has led the US economy, & if we as a whole adopt plug in hybrids w/ multi power sources, big oil will not be in control. I will, when "I CHOOSE" to fill up the tank or "I CHOOSE" to plug it in or "I CHOOSE" to use solar panels. "I CHOOSE"..."WE WILL CHOOSE"!
thank u 4 allowing me to rant...peace out fern

I could not agree more with Fern. I will be buying a Prius in the spring. I also would prefer it if there was an American auto that was similiar but there is not. Yet. GM and Chrysler are slow to react and Ford is still ramping up. I will be curious to see how the Fusion hybrid turns out.

What really sucks about all this though is that the cost of fuel wil go up faster than the prodution of efficient vehicles. because most gasoline taxs are used to repair our roads, so to maintain the same availability of funds for road repair, the price of fuel will go up even faster. Only the ones that jump on the hybrid wagon first will get any real finnacial savings (as far as fuel cost/gallon). so somwhere down the line fuel + taxesm will be $10/gallon just to repair roads or the taxs will be added on when you purchase the vehicle & that could cost $1000's for the life of the vehicle. i don't want another loan just for road repair. Maybe i should just go all electric? the government wount figure any of this out for 10-15 years anyway, they'll have meetings about who to blame as appossed to actually doing anything.