Reality check- hybrids, fuel efficiency

Well, some people think hybrids are the greatest thing since sliced bread. And maybe they have a point . But let's get something straight. When you are driving a hybrid, you are not "saving the planet".

In Europe they have much higher fuel economy than the US on average. The average German car gets 40 miles per gallon. Yet they don't have many hybrids over there . The Prius has sold very poorly in Europe. So how do they get the good economy, then?

1) Smaller cars appropriate to their needs. Europeans don't buy a pickup just to drive to work. I lived in the UK in the late 80's and the only people with pickups lived in rural areas, and they never drove them for commuting. SUV's were nonexistant, except for some Land Rovers that a few people in rural areas or workers used (to actually haul things). Now days its pretty much the same.

A car about the same size as a Honda Civic is considered a "midsize" car in Europe. In the US, it's considered small, but in Europe it would be considered a family car. Cars the size of a Honda Insight are very common.

2) More efficient engines. Lean burn gasoline and diesel engines. And lots of turbochargers. Turbochargers aren't just for performance cars, they capture waste energy from the engine and enhance the efficiency. It's far more cost effective to build a turborcharged engine than to build a hybrid.

Also, it should be pointed out that riding a bus is far more energy efficient than driving a hybrid ever will be. Sure, not everybody wants to ride a bus, but you are saving more fuel and emiting less greenhouse gasses than driving around even in a hybrid.

So what's my point? Toyota has the Prius. It's got alot of technical gee whiz stuff. But if they were serious about "saving the planet", every car they built would be a hybrid. Instead, Toyota and other automakers want to use hybrids to raise their CAFE average so they can sell more gas guzzlers at a profit (Toyota even tried to petition CARB in California to let them offset Prius sales with more Land Cruiser and large SUV and truck sales- but they failed). Or they want to apply the HSD technology to gas guzzlers, and make them only a little less gas guzzling so they can meet CAFE standards while continuing to sell oversized, overweight, ill-handling SUV's to the public.

Prius is a big marketting plus for Toyota. It attracts customers to dealerships and gives Toyota a good image with the public, enhancing the prestige for every single car they sell. When they don't have a Prius on hand, they can always try to sell them something else, too. Again, if they were serious about selling cars with the HSD and inccreasing the fuel economy, they would be making lots of small hybrid cars, not SUV's. Instead, only a small fraction of all cars they make are hybrids. Their next planned hybrid is a large SUV that will consume more gas than many smaller cars or station wagons. Ford's first hybrid was a small SUV that barely gets the gas mileage of a small station wagon like the Toyota Matrix. Dodge's first "hybrids" were large trucks with very poor fuel economy. SUV's and trucks every where, but this is hardly energy efficiency. One guy driving to work in an overweight, overpowered hybrid car or SUV is not saving the planet.

Magnulus, you make some very good points.

I'm not sure about saving the planet or anything along those lines, or CAFE requirements,

But if they can make a 5 passenger car in a popular model that can get over 60MPG average per tank, I'll buy it.

And I did :)

Hmmmm. UK Imperial gallon is 10% larger than the US gal. So a my HCH getting 50mpg is the equivalent of 55mpg in the UK. Add to that the emissions - being ULEV puts 50% less CO2 into the atmosphere. Compared to the typical 20mpg US car that is 5 times less emissions.

It might not save the planet - but I sure wish everyone was driving hybrids right now.

Yes, but the 40 mpg I quoted was US measure. In Europe they usually measure fuel economy by litres of fuel consumed per 100 KM. So the Audi A2 and Lupo TDI are called "3 Litre" cars because that's how much fuel they consume per 100 KM, not because of the engine size (actually more like 1.2 L, 4 cylinder). 3 litre/100 KM is almost 80 miles per gallon

And lets not forget the smart (now available in Canada) is also a 3 litre car and has the best milage in North America for a conventional engine.

Magnulus, don't forget that Honda and Toyta do happen to make excellent diesels. The Honda Accord diesel is revolutionary and regarded as one of the best anywhere.

They chose not to jump through the hoops to market diesels in N. America (or at least the USA) where diesels have low acceptance. I can assure you if an Accord diesel was sold in Canada, with legendary Honda reliability to back it up, VW would face some serious competition. I for one would probably buy one. As others have pointed out VW have a spotty record for reliability. We're on our second and third TDIs. The first one was not reliable but the two current ones have 22,000 and 33,000 km respectively and have been absolutely trouble-free.

Hopefully ULSD will give us a greater range of diesels to chose from.

Mike G.

Yeah, but I don't live in the UK, or anywhere in Europe. Hybrids are the best thing going so far in the US, so thats where my money is going.

And I fail to see how marketing hybrid technology is going to help SUV sales in the slightest. Sure, it might improve their image, but if I was looking for an SUV, I probably wouldn't give 2 rats' a$$e$ if they offered hybrid cars or not. And people who are looking for hybrid cars probably don't care what SUV's are offered (except in the case of ppl who want both).

If anyone is trying to slight the government and the public, its probably GM. They're installing a kinda-sorta-almost-fake hybrid system into a few of their cars, but it's not truly a hybrid technology because the electric motors won't be pushig the car much, if at all. The motor is really there to facilitate the use of the "auto engine stop" feature that is just a neat side-effect of today's hybrids.

Toyota and Honda are doing a fine job leading the hybrid cause, and kudos to them for not only offering the first hybrids in the states, but also for forking out enough money to have their production lines reworked to accommodate the hybrid technologies. Also, kudos to them for spurring the US manufacturers into high gear in getting more fuel efficient vehicles on the road. Kudos to them for making not only fuel-efficient vehicles, but also very clean vehicles. Kudos to them for adding extremely revolutionary new technologies to their product line with no knowledge of how the public would accept it. They deserve every penny of profit they make from hybrid sales, and I just pray that they use some of that profit to fund research into still better systems.

Sorry, missed a point.

"So what's my point? Toyota has the Prius. It's got alot of technical gee whiz stuff. But if they were serious about 'saving the planet', every car they built would be a hybrid."

Honda converted the Accord and the Civic to hybrid power plants.

Toyota converted the Highlander and the Lexus 330h (right?) into hybrid vehicles.

Ford converted the Escape to a hybrid-powered vehicle.

Give it time.

Give it time? Sure. But they are using this hybrid technology to push cars through that are not really raising our average fuel economy much.

The Accord might be a nice car but it is not that much more fuel efficient than the regular Accord. Some of these hybrids they have comming out aren't even real hybrids (Saturn Vue with the integrated starter motor- a very good feature but not a hybrid). Hybrid is just becomming a branding name that's essentially meaningless.

And an SUV or truck might not be the most fuel efficient choice, regardless of what is under the hood. People haven't been looking around at cars much, but there are plenty of cars with lots of interior room and good fuel economy. The Toyota Matrix will get 36 miles per gallon on the highway, can come with AWD, and it's not a hybrid, but it does have as much interior room as a small SUV. The Scion cars also have alot of room for small cars Even a Dodge Magnum with the basic V-6 engine will do twice as good as driving around a Ford Explorer.

Some people bring up safety as a reason to buy an SUV, but that is also mostly BS. Truck based vehicles really don't perform that well in most real-world crash tests, not as well as some people are lead to believe. Look at the Insurance Institutes crashes for trucks and SUV's. The IIHS uses very brutal tests that are more "real world" than the tests the government does, where only a fraction of collisions are truely fully head-on. They are littered with poor and average ratings. The Ford F-150 in particular got very bad crash ratings, the Ranger only got average, and the Dodge Durango also got an average (there are many more). So just what is so good about driving around something that looks like a tough truck? They did a test where they smashed a Mini into the front of an F-150, and the dummies in the Mini did better than the dummies in the Ford.

Some of these trucks and SUV's are not offering any more protection than a smaller car, not really that much more useful carrying capacity, but they will cost more to fuel thanks to the heavier weight and larger engines.

I would have the same problems, BTW, with putting a large V-6 or V-8 diesel engine in a truck or SUV, selling those in large numbers, and calling that "fuel efficiency".

The only people who need trucks or SUV's are people who are going to use them to actually haul things- routinely. Groceries or kids don't count.

Terrific points, Magnulus. You obviously care very deeply about this topic. A google check of your unusual name led me to literally hundreds of pages of your impassioned words on the subject of fuel efficiency. You obviously have thought a great deal about this, judging from the number of posts you've made to various websites.

According to some of those posts, you drive a diesel Jetta. Good for you! But please, do not disparage those of us who choose the hybrid route. For many of us, this is the best option available to us at the present time. We're in this together, and all trying to lessen our dependence on oil. In fact, I'd love to purchase my hydrogen-powered car right now!

Until that day, for me, hybrids will have to do.

WE WASTE SO MUCH! I think an important point needs to be made here on driving habits. I can only speak about Americans because this is where I drive. Since I ordered my Escape Hybrid and started reading about them, I made a major change in my driving habits.

People own SUV's for different reasons just like people who own fast sports cars, Vans, trucks and small cars. Money, image, noise, repair, fuel, use and many other reasons are why they select a certain vehicle.

Look around, most Americans are living in the fast lane. If the stress or car accidents don't kill us, the pollution will.

"REALITY CHECK - HYBRIDS, FUEL EFFICIENCY" A good title. For me, I had a real reality check on why I was spending so much money on gas. It was my driving habits. I took off fast at lights and was fighting to stay in front of the slow pokes that would delay my time on the road. Time was my enemy on the road.

My Hybrid has changed my driving habits. Best therapy anyone could give someone with bad driving habits. When I drive now, I see the madness on the road. I was that madness and wasted gas and polluted to the hilt. No more, I now get better MPG than the EPA ratings.

Hybrids are addicting and good for everyone till something better comes along.

I've read many times in many places that to get the most out of hybrids you have to change your driving style.

My comments:
1. Drive any car like a hybrid and see savings.
My Grand Caravan has gained 7MPG so far.
2. Sometimes change is good: and this is a good thing.

I like to see an energy balance break down before I drop my scepcism about hybrid cars. Despite several requests on bloggers' sites nobody ever provided me one.
Hybrid cars are in the end powered by their combustion engine and have to overcome the energy losses from their electric charge/store/discharge/propel driveline. (at best an efficiency ratio of 13%. So 85%plus of the energy generated by the combustion engine to enable the electric powerline IS WASTED !!!!!)
On top of that comes extra weight for the batteries.
All those losses have to be offset by 1) regeneration of brake energy and 2) more optimal running zone of the combustion engine.
Can't believe that it makes sense. Those good EPA numbers could have been derived by running a car with full batteries in the 20 (or so) minute cycle the test takes. At least they should test them with empty batteries too and average.
You can also make a traditional car more fuel saving by applying certain aspects of some hybrids. Like underpowered engines, high pressure tires, narrow treads, (gas-)engine turn-off at each stand-still. However, the discomforts accepted in hybrids are commercially viable in traditional cars. So in some way we're also comparing apples and oranges.
I therefore wouldn't be surprised if hybrid are just a passing fad. Just good marketing by the predominently Japanese manufacturers until somebody really exposes the weaknesses in the logic of the concept. Nobody has been able to find a perpetuum mobile as yet !!!!

I don't need an "energy breakdown" of any kind to see the benefits of owning a hybrid. Here's all the breakdown I need:

Petroleum-based fuel prices will probably never go down. Only up.

Hybrid cars get better fuel efficiency than a pure petrol-based car of the same body style.

That's it.

Sure, hybrids might be a passing fad, but at least its gonna help me where I need help most...the wallet. The emissions factor, the performance factor, the availability factor...none are as important as that almighty dollar that's gonna be left in my pocket 3 weeks after I fill-up when I still have over 1/4 of a tank left.

Naysayers laugh now, but when I pull up to the gas pump and think to myself, "damn, I haven't been here in a month;" that's when I'll be laughing.

"I like to see an energy balance break down before I drop my scepcism about hybrid cars. Despite several requests on bloggers' sites nobody ever provided me one."

Frank, I guess your skeptical about Hybrids as far as I can follow you here. I'm not sure a "bloggers' site" can answer your question, what ever that is. You make alot of assumption about Hybrids, the EPA, Marketing by the Japanese and logic of the concept of Hybrids.

Alot of people though the earth was flat at one time. Now, Tim just pointed out that better MPG is what he gets with his Hybrid in tring to answer your question.

You don't believe in Hybrids and you want answers, right! About your fully charged battery theory and the EPA. I can drive my Escape Hybrid with a fully charge battery at 30 MPH on elec. only for 1.6 miles before the engine starts and has to charge the battery. The engine charges the battery for about the same distance to have another fully charged battery. Say I got 30MPG with the engine pushing the car and charging the battery at the same time. That would mean I'm getting 60 MPG. Now the EPA sets city driving at 36 mpg. I can get 40mpg and the engine is not broke in yet.

Your high tire presure suggestion is good but what about safety and traction? Narrow treads? What about plaining in the rain. Marketing Japanese? Not much marketing, only waiting list from what I see. Logic? saving gas and the environment is a good logic I think.

Hope I answered your question.

Hey Galileo,
The earth is sure not flat. And narrow tires are in fact less prone to aqua planing. Yes ... you read it correctly. Narrow tires have a better downward pressure per sq inch and so press the water better away than those wide macho super slicks people love to have under their cars. The same is true for traction in snow. (If you would go water skiing what do you think would float you better over the water, a couple of thin rods or wide boards.)
Clearly wide tires have a lot working for them too. E.g. better dry footprint, better heat dissipation, less hysteresis to name a few. So when choosing a technical solution you go for wider tires (up to a certain extent).
As for narrow high pressure tires; if I not mistaken (but I sure could be in this) look under your Prius. Would that be the kind of tires you would go for under a regular car. Pretty skimpy, huh. And what is the prescribed pressure? The usual 30psi or a tad higher?
Just start to think. Where does the energy come from in a hybrid, ..... other than from that same old gas in the tank in the back.
So how can it be that a hybrid can be more efficient than the gasoline driveline by which it is ultimately powered? Or did we miss something and did somebody invent a perpetuum mobile and slip it in without anybody noticing?
Just ask yourself this question and I'm sure that you too will wonder about the energy balance of this miraculous concept.

Frank asks "how can a hybrid be more efficient than the driveline upon which it is based?"

Fair question. The answer is that ultimately it isn't, of course. However, the hybrid has a number of tricks up its sleeve that allow it to capture more of the energy than a conventional car with the same engine would. Regenerative braking is the most obvious example of this. However, Prius and its related designs can also capture additional power from the engine when it's being run at less than peak output by siphoning off that energy to the battery (or to the traction motor). Since gasoline engines are more efficient at or near their peak output than they are at lower outputs, this is more efficient than a conventional auto which would just run the engine at a less efficient RPM/load.

There's also the factor that a hybrid's gasoline engine is smaller than an otherwise identical conventional car's would be. Because the eletric motor can assist with peak power requirements, the engine can be sized closer to the average power requirements of the vehicle instead of the peak power requirement.

At a given vehicle size and performance level a well designed hybrid will therefore always be more efficient than an otherwise identical conventional car.

And don't forget that the engine isn't wasting gas idling at a stop/in traffic.

Also, with models that can run in electric mode (such as Prius, Escape, etc.), they're saving a lot of gas when starting from a dead stop, which burns a lot of fuel comparatively. Electric is a lot more efficient than ICE in this respect.

Efficiency is increased by the combination of two types of propulsion with different strengths. Each gets used where it is most efficient, as well as the electric being able to recover and re-use energy that is otherwise wasted.

Frank, I agree about the thin tire theory and I'm sure most here would agree. I took your original statement that you thought that having thinner groves (threads) in the tire would somehow improve mileage. Boy, you sure jumped hard on that issue and not any of the main issues discussed. Do you work for Dodge or GM?

Today our weather was fair and had warmed up to around 70 degreese.
Over the 46 miles I travel to work I did almost 66 MPG in my HCH today.
ALmost sixty six.
After driving over 640 miles it's almost time to fill my 11-12 gallons of gas again. Will likely calculate to around 59MPG again.

With gasoline over $2.10 per gallon this car is as efficient as I need.

That's my reality.

Frank, you mentioned the weight of the batteries. If you were referring to the heavy lead-acid batteries of the EV cars, we don't use those. We use a deep-cycle version of the Nimh batteries, similar to the one in your notebook computer. Only weighs a few pounds.

Thanks everybody who responded to my initial blog and follow ups. You're all great and have helped to focus my thoughts.
Since I was looking for more scientific "beef" about the subject I turned to university web pages.
Good stuff there. Still several questions left which I will take up with the authors.
If you're interested, here are some interesting sites that I found in a quick search.
http://web.mit.edu/chemistry/deutch/...arsNow2004.pdf,
http://greet.anl.gov/publications.html

Does anyone out there own both a regular civic and hybrid civic? How do they compare in MPG?This may be a practical and simple way to to measure how much a hybrid system gains in fuel economy since Honda makes a standard Civic and a Hybrid Civic using the same frame and body shape. All things being equal (presumably the tires as well), From EPA estimates I would assume the hybrid to perform about 20% better. However, I do not completely trust the EPA estimates (I've been averaging about 53MPG over 18000 miles with my manual HCH where EPA says 48/49).

While I don't own a hybrid Civic, I've owned a 97 Civic HX since purchased new 8 years ago, and my parents have a 97 Civic LX. While the driving conditions are different (they're on the east coast with 35-40mph city limits and 65mph highway, I'm in AZ with 40-45mph city limits and 75mph highway) it's still roughly comparable.

My parents have reported that their LX will usually get 35-38mpg in mostly highway cruising, which seems in line with it's 32/38 rating. My HX will get anywhere from low 30's in heavy, dense city traffic to high 30's for easy going suburban traffic. I'll typically see low 40's when cruising at 65-70mph for trips and usually 36-38 for 75mph trips.

If you're driving in mainly lower speed limit highway conditions, such as the 65mph highways that seem to be common on the east coast, then if you compare to the Civic LX at 37mpg or so, your 53 would be 43% better. If you compared to my HX's 42mpg or so for highway trips around 65mph, then you're still seeing about 26% better mileage, which is pretty impressive.

Re: compaing civic with civic-hybrid.

A while back Popular Mechanics did a cross country drive with both automobiles. They went from east coast to west coast, traveling 75-80 MPH. Their final gas mileage showed about a 24% difference in mileage. I think the final numbers were something like 42 MPG (hybrid) versus 33.8 (non-hybrid).

http://www.popularmechanics.com/auto...y/1266881.html

One other link:

There is a useful comparison of the civic versus the civic-hybrid on page seven of this document, showing MPG, acceleration, cargo space, etc.:

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/tech/...ivic_Final.pdf

is it just me or is the mileage for the honda civic 40 mpg if you're lucky? since day one in Oct 2002 I've had to really work hard to even get 40 mpg regardless if city or highway. Is it just me?

Is it just you? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe it is the way you drive, or the speed you drive, or maybe it is just your environment (cold temps, bad commute). All of those things make a major difference in mileage, no matter what kind of car or truck you drive.

Or maybe there is something amiss with the car?

You can visit the GreenHybrid database to see a lot of folks who enter their mileage for the Honda Civic Hybrid. I think the average mpg is around 46, with the range going from 38 to 60. There is one regular poster who gets around 38 mpg there -- you might have similar circumstances with him.

My personal experience on my six-mile city commute is now (springtime) about 45 mpg, and on the freeway it's 50 or better. For whatever reason, I think I'd have to be dragging Rosanne Barr or a couple Oakland Raiders to get below 40 mpg. :-)

I bought a 2004 manual HCH in May 04. A friend of mine with a HCH told me about this site today and thought I should post my results. Hot Georgia has a lot of good tips that I learned by trial and error. Over the course of almost 24,000 miles to date, I am averaging 58.2 mpg. That is city, highway, bumper to bumper at times, a lot of trial and error learning curve, and included a tank last August with the A/C on and a total diregard for gas mileage as an experiment (about 45 mpg ouch). I reset my other trip meter every fill-up and guage my performance one tank of gas at a time (as well as the life of the car performance I mentioned.) I often get 800+ miles from a tank of gas, and once registered 64.5 mpg over the course of a tank last year, but last week the mpg meter was reading 69.2 near the end of a tank of gas and I decided to try to get 900 miles from one tank of gas. The car ran out of gas at 890 miles, so my actual mileage was closer to 67.4 mpg. Today, my trip meter is registering 70.4 mpg with 762.5 miles on this tank. I also still have "4 bars" left on the gas guage. I think 900 miles on this tank is a virtual lock unless I hit some bad weather (the forcast for the next 2 days is only 20-30% chance of rain) or really screw it up.

Is anyone else out there getting this kind of performance? Where is the Green Hybrid Database?

Great mileage!

You can find the greenhybrid database at http://www.greenhybrid.com/. Note that I'm not advocating one web site over another -- obviously this hybridcars site is loaded with phenomenal articles and information -- but over there at greenhybrid they have a place where you can enter miles, gallons of gas, comments, driving conditions, etc.

At 58.2 mpg you would be tied for fourth, out of 87 cars. :-) Top mpg is 58.7.

Chuck,

Today my lifetime trip meter clicked over to 58.6 mpg over close to 24,000 miles!

Where am I in the standings now?

Bob

I am at 911.4 miles and counting on one tank of gas. The meter is reading 70.0 mpg.

Very impressive mileage Bob. Congradulations!

I'm not sure that Magnulus wants to hear a technical explanation of how hybrids do achieve better mileage. I tried to explain some of that in my blog. Efficiency 101,2,3.

Hybrid cars contain the best of automotive technology. One of the most useful is the real time mileage readout. It helps those who are willing to change.

Thanks Kip, and I definitely agree with you. I think the real-time mileage readout can make almost anyone energy concious. It makes driving like playing a video game. My other car is a V-8 Dodge Durango, and I even catch myself driving it like the hybrid in some respects. I don't know why all cars don't come with the real-time mileage readout, and auto-stop. I think those 2 things could really help boost gas mileage/conservation and cut air pollution nation-wide.

By the way, I bought gas today before I ran out on the road (although I had a gas can in the trunk just in case). My trip meter was at 945.6 and 70.0 mpg. Certainly my best trip ever.

Bob

I have a civic hybrid which replaced an escort. In the escort the best mileage I got on my commute was 34-36mpg. In the civic it is 55mpg. In the winter my escorts mileage would drop to around 30. The civic drops to 48-50 in the winter.

My wife drives a 01 prius. She gets 50-52mpg in the summer and 38-42 in the winter. She previously owned a corolla, which got 22-24 in the winter and 26 in the summer. The prius is a bigger 4 door vs the 2 dr corolla. Both automatic.

How much you benefit from a hybrid depends on how and where you drive it. You will benefit less if you

1. Drive very short distances in cold weather
2. Drive extremely fast
3. Drive up mountains
4. Drive with your AC blasting all the time.
5. If you drive right up to the light and jam your brakes vs slow stops.



If you avoid these things you can get 50-100% better mpg. These guys who poo poo hybrids either don't understand them, and haven't learned to drive them correctly.

The popular mechanics article did everything they could to hurt the hybrid. They loaded it down and they drove over the speedlimit through mountains. Most people commute with a single driver in an unloaded car in the city. This is where hybirds shine.

Kip, yes I read your blog... but most of that stuff you are talking about is not exclusively hybrid technology. Unless you mean hybrid is a "package of fuel efficient technologies".

Most Honda and Toyota engines use variable valve timing right now. Electric power steering and/or variable hydraulic power steering are used on a few cars now and will be more common in 2006 and onwards, and it probably accounts for substantial savings in fuel economy for the HCH (probably about 5 percent increase). Low rolling resistance tires are definitely not hybrid technology- I have some on my current car, and again, if you use them will increase your fuel economy by about 5 percent.

The biggest reason that hybrids save fuel- they have small engines and low acceleration. Try convincing most people they don't need all that horsepower- it's hard to do. People invariably want more. My VW Jetta diesel, or the average Toyota Corolla/Prius, Civic, etc., accelerates about as fast as a sportscar did 30-40 years ago, but for alot of people, that's not good enough. They want 8 seconds 0-60, 6 seconds 0-60... in FAMILY SEDANS! This is what's really ridiculous. Cars so overpowered they need traction control to keep the tires from squealing and spinning.

If you need a 0-60 of less than 10 seconds to go pick up your kids at school, or go pick up some Starbucks or whatever... you need a reality check. Maybe if American drivers weren't so addicted to weaving through traffic, passing on the right, jackrabbit starts, tailgating, and all those other bad driving behaviors, they wouldn't want all that wanton horsepower. (they don't know the meaning of slug... not until they've been in a VW Rabbit or a Mercedes diesel... now that's slow, but amazingly enough, people survived just fine on those kinds of cars).

"If you need a 0-60 of less than 10 seconds to go pick up your kids at school, or go pick up some Starbucks or whatever... you need a reality check. Maybe if American drivers weren't so addicted to weaving through traffic, passing on the right, jackrabbit starts, tailgating, and all those other bad driving behaviors, they wouldn't want all that wanton horsepower. "

This is so absolutely true, and exceptionally well stated.

Unfortunately, the craving for power is fed by advertisers every day. Out here in suburbia, you can't turn around without bumping into one of those high-horsepower station wagons.

I'm glad to find a place where people are discussing the pros and cons of various fuel efficient technologies. I was not able to read through all of the comments made, but I am wondering about hybrid technology that combines current electric (toyota/honda) tech. with diesel. Is this around the corner? Also, in terms of fuel efficiency, please help me understand how EPA can list the Prius at 60/51 mpg city/hwy when everyone I've talked to, including my father who owns a 2004, averages in the mid 40s. I certainly understand that many other factors contribute to mileage (i.e., driving habit, tire pressure, speed...). And certainly mid 40s isn't too shabby, but what does it say about mileage estimates accross the board if the prius average mileage is 10 mpg less than EPA estimates. Perhaps I'm naive. I've already read somewhere that the new Honda Accord hybrid will likely get no better gas mileage on average than it's counterpart combustion-only sister.

The Prius EPA number for city driving is a bit of an anomaly, because the nature of the driving caused the electric-only mode to be engaged more often than typical. Hence the excessively large city mileage number.

In real life, most folks seem to be getting roughly 47 or 48 mpg with the Prius, which as you state is not shabby, especially in our current environment of gas-slurping SUVs and the "Is that a HEMI?" mindset yielding 15 mpg.

Regarding the Accord, if you are enticed to drive it like a V8 due to its acceleration and power, then your numbers will not be much different than the 4-cylinder Accord. If you drive it more moderately, you will probably average about 30 mpg overall. If you drive it to take advantage of the variable cylinder shut-off capability on the highway, you will get closer to 40.

All good points above but I'm not sure if there really is a negative for Toyota.

Smart Marketing, Gee Whiz Technology, Creating a Market ....

If this is considered bad, then Intel, Apple, Dell, HP, Texas Instruments, Microsoft and every other technology company selling us unnecessary junk should be relegated to social purgatory.

Personally, I bought a Prius because it is an elegant efficient design and it has more functionality than your regular car (hatch back).

As far as the other stuff I just took the fuel savings and stuck them together with all the cost considerations and in the end decided to buy Toyota because I see a lot of old ones still on the road and the Prius because it is the second generation of the next best thing, like my DVD handicam. Oh, and like with my handicam, what I was replacing had become non-functional economically. With the handycam, I determined 10 minute clips were what I wanted so the direct to DVD system was OK ... the same kind of considerations when looking at cars and deciding to buy a Prius.

I have a wife and three kids, which means three car seats or booster seats. In Europe, car seats are not "the Law." If we want to help save the environment, perhaps we need to offer hybrids for people that have young kids.