Comments on: Would You Like Your Electric Car With or Without a Gas Engine?

By: Halo9x

Halo9x — Thu, 24 Jun 2010 03:56:55 +0000

I just returned from a nearly 3,000 mile trip in my Prius. I’m sorry, but the Leaf just wouldn’t cut it. The hyper expensive Tesla would not make it as a vacation vehicle. In fact, the only other vehicle that might have done alright might in fact be the Volt. Here’s the rub with these new vehicles. The Volt costs $35-40K. It has to be the primary vehicle for most people who can afford it (not me). The Leaf is going to cost $25-30K which is more affordable but can ONLY be a vehicle to drive around town or go to work. That’s a lot of money to spend on a one trick pony. The Tesla is a rich man’s toy but has better range than the leaf. However, It still can’t make a 3,000 mile trip unless you plan on spending many hours recharging every 200 miles. My point is this, most people do not have the money for multiple single purpose vehicles. The plug-in hybrids seem to make the most sense as a general all-purpose vehicle. Until someone can invent “Mr. Fusion” to power electric cars, gasoline is still going to be the hands down fuel of choice. It is still relatively cheap, plentiful, convenient and makes long trips possible. Otherwise, get used to going nowhere except to work on electric vehicles. I wish it weren’t so but for now this is just reality.
Furthermore, global warming is a hoax to make Gore, Sorros, Obama and their cronies wealthy and nothing more.
By the way, driving the legal speed limits of 70 & 80 MPH, I got 45 mpg and over 48 on the return trip home!

By: Peter

Peter — Wed, 23 Jun 2010 16:51:48 +0000

This is a triple bottom line question. Does the ZEV electric car work for you or me as an individual circumstance? Do the economics make sense for your family? What is the life cycle cost to society of ZEV electric, factoring vehicle emissions (or lack of), emissions at the point source of power, reduction in dependence on foreign power sources like oil, total cost of new infrastructure (who pays, the electric utility, or do you imagine this is a government business or subsidy?), etc. Unless we build at the pace of China many of us will be in our graves before there is national infrastructure to charge a fleet of many millions of EVs daily. For my dollars and my family, I must decide these questions as an individual in “the here and now” and “the here and now” dictates we had better have a gasoline auxiliary engine or this EV thing is not going to work for our family. There are millions and millions of similar families in the USA today. Perhaps an unintended consequnce of EVs is that the cities will become even more densely populated and the suburbs will take so long to have the re-charging infrastructure that they will lose luster as people move back closer to their employment and the transportation conveniences.

By: Dave K.

Dave K. — Wed, 23 Jun 2010 12:35:57 +0000

Here’s the truth, there will be room(and need) for all three technologies. My personal plan is to have a Leaf and a PHEV Prius in my garage in about a year, but if I had the money the hybrid would be a Chevy Volt. I have a friend who does mobile tech support who regularly drives more than 100 miles a day in his Prius, does it make sense for him to switch to a Volt? Probably not. My commute is 12.6 miles so a Leaf will do that easily even with a couple of side trips to shop, eat out, ect. My wife’s is about 16 miles so as long as we have one car that CAN use gas we can still go on trips. All three technologies are viable and needed.

By: Tom

Tom — Wed, 23 Jun 2010 03:03:07 +0000

I wouldn’t give any credence to either view.. all electric, or extended range at this point. As an analogy, try to imagine what home computing will be like in 10 years.. how much will we just use smart phones, will iPads win, will laptops rule, etc.. what applications will we run on each?? Now, this is a device most of us are exposed to all the time, and we’d be hard pressed for any reasonable prediction. The electric-esque car is something new to most people today. Wouldn’t that make it at least as hard to predict as the computer? Bottom line, too early to tell, room for both, take a look in 3 years, and update product portfolios.

By: ex-EV1 driver

ex-EV1 driver — Tue, 22 Jun 2010 22:57:58 +0000

I'll give my opinion but let someone else address our misinformed and terminally skeptical friend Ham:
I am a very strong EV advocate, however, I'm ok with the Volt, except for the fact that it will insist on trying to burn a tank of gas every 3 months or so and won't have a fast charge option. Otherwise, 95% of my normal life can be pure EV and even more if I push it by trying to use public charging even when on long trips.
I say: try both ways and see if the fast charging infrastructure develops to give fast-refueling to EVs just as we already have it for gas-burners.
I wonder what the Volt does if the tank is empty? Can it still run on electrons?

By: Ham

Ham — Tue, 22 Jun 2010 19:21:04 +0000

Glad to see you are an expert in the field. I'm a toxicologist (w/ a MS) w/ HMM certification, so that must make me important. Not to be rude, but you are kidding, right? - you think lines for gas stations are long? What kind of lines are there going to be for "quick" charging stations? Sitting in LA traffic, moving at 4 MPH w/ AC blasting, radio on (listening to traffic reports) and everyone in their electric hybrids trying to get into these "quick" charge stations before their batteries die. Not to mention the idiots who didn't charge up the night before and need towed from the center of the interstate into these charge stations or towed home. Plus uh-oh, my power has been out for two days due to all the storms in the region, so I guess my trip to the store, trip to the doc's office, commute to work are all put on hold until the power company gets out here and restores my power so I can charge up.

Also last time I looked - making electricity, as well as making and disposing of batteries is not pollution free yet.

Not doubting the cost you estimated, but if price is your concern, buy a Nissan Versa for $11K. Using your price estimates from above: $11k for the car, spend $9K in gas for 100K mi, $20 per oil change every 5K mi ($400 for 20 oil changes) and I'm looking at $21-22K over the life of the car. Heck ditch the Versa and pick any car up to $17K and you won't have to worry about finding a charging station ever and still spend the same amount as your Leaf and you'l be saving the US tax payers $7.5K.

Leaf MSRP $32.7K (-$7.5K for Fed Tax Credit), so you will get the car for $25 to $26K. Pay an additional $3K for electricity and you are paying $28 - $29K.

However, your fantasy world of quick charge stations (please link a reference or two for these "major" projects) still doesn't make a believer out of me. I really don't see my employer installing charging stations in their parking garage. What about the people who live in apartments or condos or have on street parking or they don't have a garage or charging area? Do they run extension cords out their windows, across the sidewalk, and into their car? maybe I need to call Starbuck's with a great idea: Starbuck's will open up coffee houses for all the people along the road waiting to charge their cars. That way people can spend $5 on a cup of coffee while they complain about $3.50/gallon gas and talk about how nice it is along the highway waiting to charge their car.

Here's my fantasy: put quick fill hydrogen stations along major arteries, swap out the dino-fuel burner in the gas/electric hybrid w/ an H-burner (with the car already built you wouldn't have to redesign the entire system), and relegate the all electric car to a small niche. It makes as much, if not more sense then a range limited all-electric car that needs plugged in.

Have a nice day.

By: Ham

Ham — Tue, 22 Jun 2010 18:29:11 +0000

So what happens if you are out and about your batteries are low? It’s not like running low on gas and you can hit a nearby service station and be on your way in 3 or 4 minutes. Plus if you run out of gas call AAA and they will bring a gallon or two to get you home. In an electric, call AAA to have them tow you home. All electric cars may have a place in the future, but I’ll take the convenience of having a mileage extending option built right into my car, instead of sitting somewhere in the middle of a highway or in the middle of no where wondering how the heck I’m getting my batteries charged or calling a tow truck to get me home.

By: Christopher H Lynt

Christopher H Lynt — Tue, 22 Jun 2010 17:51:17 +0000

The average commute (in 2005) was 16 miles and took an average of 26 minutes. Assuming it has gotten twice as bad in the last five years, an all-electric vehicle is still going to handle the average commute with battery to spare. Businesses and parking garages will install charging stations no-doubt with the Level I and/or Level II standard, so while at work, your batteries can be recharged. Yes, at present, if you have to take a long trip, the Nissan Leaf is not going to be your best bet. But there are major projects afoot to install fast chargers along major arteries, so right now is a bit like the early days of gasoline powered vehicles in terms of ‘refueling.’ An average American drives 12,000 miles a year making the weekly driving average about 230 miles, or two full charges at under $3.00 a charge of the Nissan Leaf (at present $0.11 per kwh utility rate average). For every 100 miles you drive in an gasoline car (assuming 33 mpg and $3.00/gallon) you pay $9.00 and the Leaf pays under $3.00…add in oil changes, filter changes, and other gasoline engine maintenance costs and…well, how much is that needless gasoline engine costing you anyway? Do the numbers. Then add in the ‘hidden’ costs of air pollution, oil spills, etc. Why are we even having a debate? [I am a self-employed electrical engineer (MSCEE) and patent attorney (JD) with no affiliation with Nissan or any other auto manufacturer, but I have reserved a Nissan Leaf.]

By: reinCARnate

reinCARnate — Tue, 22 Jun 2010 16:04:03 +0000

Amen, although I'm not waiting for the auto-makers. I'm making one myself. That way I have complete control over what I put into the car, and I won't be stuck in a manufacturer's built-in maintenance plan.

That's the beauty of electric cars, virtually no maintenance. If you go brushless AC motor, you never have to service it, you get regenerative braking and thus your brakes hardly get used, no oil changes, no tune-ups, no timing to worry about, no smog checks, etc.

You change the tires every few years, get joints lubed, lead acid batteries need filling once a month, which can be done at home and with a watering system is super easy, whereas Lithiums don't need maintenance.

Come on people, it's time to go electric!

By: Samie

Samie — Tue, 22 Jun 2010 13:06:06 +0000

Don't forget about the Ford Focus EV. If cars like the Leaf, Mitsubishi i-MiEV, and the Focus EV start taking away hybrid sales, you will see even greater competition in the EV market (Hint.... a Prius EV). Competition is key and it would be nice to see three short-term strategies:

1. Affordability- sub or compact sedans/hatchbacks. The drawback would be not much improvement in battery range.
2. Luxury options - Extend range of battery and quicker charging capabilities
3. Small SUV/Mini Van EVs - To expand the market, EVs will need to expand into mainstream car segments like soccer mom vehicles.

Interestingly, next wave batteries could come quicker than ever! Smart phones are currently pushing processor & battery technology to the edge. Over time, even in the slow paced world of automobiles many tech leaps from smart phones will move into the vehicles we drive.