Comments on: Will Tax Credits Help Clean Diesel?

By: x431

x431 — Wed, 05 Jan 2011 09:47:19 +0000

The happiest of people don't necessarily have the best of everything they just make the most of everything that comes along their way.

By: Bill Kuntz

Bill Kuntz — Sun, 05 Oct 2008 02:54:07 +0000

When the government gave the maximum IRS rebate for the Toyota hybrid all that happened was the greedy dealers charged you that amount above the sticker price so they got the rebate not you.
When I went in just for fun to see how I would be treated you know the cars are so in demand there was every option on the car the manufacture could put on it and the dealer had an additional 1,100 dollars worth of extras. I understand now I'm not going to own a Toyota hybrid. I wonder when I go to get a price on a Volkswagen if there will be an extra 8 to 9 thousand dollars of options added that I don't need or will they just want my IRS rebate
right up front.
I guess I'll Just drive my electric car until the battery pack gives up the ghost. Hypermiling the van on longer trips will have to do if greed is the barrier they want to keep. I notice the SUV's are sure taking up a lot of parking space that hybrids should be filling.

By: wxman

wxman — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 13:10:16 +0000

RKRB – yes, that does help. Thanks for your comment.

I’m an atmospheric scientist, not an epidemiologist, so I confess that I don’t fully understand biological responses at the cellular level.

A slide presentation of the ORNL study I referenced is available at http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/deer_2003/session9/2003_deer_storey.pdf .

I don’t doubt that diesel exhaust is toxic at sufficient concentrations, but I’m certainly not convinced that exhaust from ANY combustion process isn’t toxic at sufficient concentrations.

DPF has been shown by multiple studies (including the ORNL study I referenced) to be very effective – so much so that PM levels are typically lower than gasoline levels both on a particle number and particle mass basis per unit of fuel burned.

By: RKRB

RKRB — Mon, 29 Sep 2008 02:11:46 +0000

wxman: you may want to look into the concept of “hormesis” which suggests that low levels of certain toxins may actually be “good for you,” because they stimulate healthy immune response functions (and don’t laugh — exercise and alcohol are examples of stressors which boost health at lower levels, and which can kill you if overdone).
So…low levels of diesel can stimulate cell growth, but higher levels of diesel particulates have been shown to be harmful (and the difference between low and high levels may not differ very much, just as the difference between helpful and toxic doses of a drug may not be very great). SOme chemicals are toxic at any dose, but MAY have a lower toxicity at higher doses relative to hormetic chemicals. Cell cultures are not 100% predictable, because a lot depends on the types of cells, the relative dose levels, the time given for the cells to adjust, etc.
Hope this helps.

By: wxman

wxman — Thu, 25 Sep 2008 13:39:24 +0000

If diesel exhaust is so “dirty” and “toxic”, why did an Oak Ridge National Laboratory study show cell growth of human lung cells when exposed to exhaust of a modern diesel engine (with DPF), but cell necrosis (death) when exposed to the exhaust of a modern gasoline engine (at the same dilution ratio)?

By: kurtdaniel

kurtdaniel — Thu, 25 Sep 2008 03:00:04 +0000

no matter how they say that its clean its still a diesel and has its contaminants!!!!

By: Dom

Dom — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 13:14:07 +0000

SoloSoldier,

Why don't you do some research before just writing of a technology you don't understand.

Diesel is a good option because
- Diesel engines are inherently more efficient than gasoline engines
- Have their maximum torque in their most efficient operating range (~1800rpm) - much better for for towing than gasoline engines
- Can match current hybrids at fuel economy without batteries, especially in highway cruising.
- Can run on biodiesel, or other non-dino alternatives.

As far as hybrids being about "greening" the environment, you're just fooling yourself. It probably isn't any greener to build and operative a Prius than a Jetta TDI all things considered. And you could probably take a small TDI drivetrain and put it into the Prius and get the same fuel economy (at least on the highway) due to the low drag of the Prius' body design.

By: SoloSoldier

SoloSoldier — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 01:43:26 +0000

Someone explain to me why diesel is an option?? I mean tfor the same price as a honda civic hybrid or Civic CNG you could which emit less pollutants than a diesel vehicle, even the newly touted Jetta TDI. Hybridization is more than just about mileage, its about “greening” the environment. Diesels don’t do that… even though the can pass Cali’s strict emission standards.

By: Samie

Samie — Tue, 23 Sep 2008 20:32:01 +0000

Ok sorry, but I don't agree with throwing everything into the mix. I agree plugin and EV's are by no means the last steps that need to be taken. We need to take the most viable approaches develop them so they can sustain their own market share. Some say that hybrids need to be at 30% before this happens. You seem skeptical about future growth in the hybrid, plugin, and EV markets. In the next few years we will see huge changes in this market. Will it be at 30% in ten years? Focusing on this market is very important and goes will beyond cars. Improvements in battery technology and advancements in storage, energy regeneration, and lowered costs will be very important to our economy.

CNG basically is another fuel, which is scary in that again we take one fuel and replace it with another. I'm sure price would go up if demand goes up and who knows who would really own these entities if more money is to be made in this sector. If price goes up too much we may see acceleration of cheaper imported natural gas into the U.S. market. There is less control over markets for natural gas then say utility companies or to make the energy yourself to power your own EV car. More violitility happens when you replace fuels with fuels and look at what is happening to the SE where gas shortages have been going on for almost 3 weeks. Only if we had a mass market for EV's or plugins to help with problems like this or say fuel shortages from natural disasters.

I am even skeptical of cellulose ethanol. If we only use plant waste and other waste products to make it that's OK but if we grow stock only for production of cellulose ethanol what good does that do us? I'm sure you get the point but again issues with land resources and millions more would suffer from malnutrition due to higher food prices.

Hybrids really at this point can not replace the functions of a diesel engine. You could argue that CNG could be used more for buses and other large vehicles. Oil products will be around for years we can't just stop using oil tomorrow but we can continue to develop ways to get away from using fuels by focusing government and industry tools into r&d and encouraging markets to grow. More options create scattered interests, less investments and capital into things that are already trying to develop. Not in all cases but I believe in this case we need to narrow the options to focus on longer term solutions.

By: Dom

Dom — Tue, 23 Sep 2008 12:38:58 +0000

Hey simon@aus,

A badly maintained engine regardless of fuel is awful. It's not just diesel. And there are many many more old smoky gasoline engines on the road then there are old diesels (mostly because the US buys mostly gasoline cars).

The VW TDI is a awesome powertrain, powerful AND fuel efficient, and I'm happy the the IRS isn't excluding them from this tax credit. VW has been selling diesels for years, it's about time they get some recognition.