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	<title>Comments on: Toyota&#039;s Surprising Maneuver: A $50,000 Hydrogen Car by 2015</title>
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	<link>http://www.hybridcars.com/toyotas-surprising-maneuver-50000-hydrogen-car-2015-27920/</link>
	<description>Auto alternatives for the 21st century</description>
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		<title>By: Collin Burnell</title>
		<link>http://www.hybridcars.com/toyotas-surprising-maneuver-50000-hydrogen-car-2015-27920/#comment-25295</link>
		<dc:creator>Collin Burnell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 May 2010 23:51:04 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Sorry I did not read all of the comments yet...&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Basically, the Fuel Cell / Hydrogen system becomes a &#039;replacement&#039; for a large battery pack in an EV.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I think it is wise to continue to refine the technology. It may or may not end up in automobiles... maybe it will end up in other forms of transportation or improving the current wave of stationary power generation. The more clean options we have, the better.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry I did not read all of the comments yet&#8230;</p>
<p>Basically, the Fuel Cell / Hydrogen system becomes a &#8216;replacement&#8217; for a large battery pack in an EV.</p>
<p>I think it is wise to continue to refine the technology. It may or may not end up in automobiles&#8230; maybe it will end up in other forms of transportation or improving the current wave of stationary power generation. The more clean options we have, the better.</p>
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		<title>By: Rod</title>
		<link>http://www.hybridcars.com/toyotas-surprising-maneuver-50000-hydrogen-car-2015-27920/#comment-25294</link>
		<dc:creator>Rod</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 May 2010 23:38:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://127.0.0.1/wordpress12/?p=6965#comment-25294</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sure, both battery &amp; hydrogen will have their own limitations for many years. But the massive changes required in the delivery and production infrastructure mean than governments and industry must consider the longer term, when on-board batteries/fuel cells will be cheap, light and high capacity, EVs will be charged quickly using green electricty (home solar/smart chargers using green supplier, public charging stations) and hydrogen will be safe, manufactured by solar home-stations and available at your local gas station. The vehicle itself is only a small part of the problem.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Governments and industry can&#039;t make long-term bets on medium term limitations. I always favoured EVs because of the established electrical distribution network, but home-based solar-powered hydrogen stations would change that when the prices (eventually) came down. That&#039;s only one example that could change the equation. It will take 5-10 years to replace even a small number of coal-fired power stations with green power. I can see why car companies are making a bet each way.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sure, both battery &#038; hydrogen will have their own limitations for many years. But the massive changes required in the delivery and production infrastructure mean than governments and industry must consider the longer term, when on-board batteries/fuel cells will be cheap, light and high capacity, EVs will be charged quickly using green electricty (home solar/smart chargers using green supplier, public charging stations) and hydrogen will be safe, manufactured by solar home-stations and available at your local gas station. The vehicle itself is only a small part of the problem.</p>
<p>Governments and industry can&#8217;t make long-term bets on medium term limitations. I always favoured EVs because of the established electrical distribution network, but home-based solar-powered hydrogen stations would change that when the prices (eventually) came down. That&#8217;s only one example that could change the equation. It will take 5-10 years to replace even a small number of coal-fired power stations with green power. I can see why car companies are making a bet each way.</p>
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		<title>By: Dean</title>
		<link>http://www.hybridcars.com/toyotas-surprising-maneuver-50000-hydrogen-car-2015-27920/#comment-25293</link>
		<dc:creator>Dean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 May 2010 16:41:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://127.0.0.1/wordpress12/?p=6965#comment-25293</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This is purely a research, publicity and marketing exercise that will produce a few dozen or a hundred cars and prove to Toyota management that they aren&#039;t profitable, so that they can go on building gasoline hybrids.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Now if they would produce a flex-fuel fuel cell car that could run on any mix of methane and hydrogen, they would have something.  But that might actually be successful, so you will never see it happen.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is purely a research, publicity and marketing exercise that will produce a few dozen or a hundred cars and prove to Toyota management that they aren&#8217;t profitable, so that they can go on building gasoline hybrids.</p>
<p>Now if they would produce a flex-fuel fuel cell car that could run on any mix of methane and hydrogen, they would have something.  But that might actually be successful, so you will never see it happen.</p>
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		<title>By: Samie</title>
		<link>http://www.hybridcars.com/toyotas-surprising-maneuver-50000-hydrogen-car-2015-27920/#comment-25292</link>
		<dc:creator>Samie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 May 2010 16:07:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://127.0.0.1/wordpress12/?p=6965#comment-25292</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[sean t &lt;br /&gt;
What broad approaches are there?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It is very important to remember that petroleum is heavily subsidized &amp; the true market price is severely distorted&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Given the efficiencies of ICE engines and not paying the real price of gasoline creates the first real barrier to any alternatives.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Then ask yourself what technologies can directly compete with ICE?  Does the technology provide opportunities for market innovations? Does the technology create incentives for independent fueling? How much government funding and support is needed to encourage markets to grow? Can we afford to fund 4-5 different technologies for say 10-15 years?  Do you have the funding for the incentives needed to make all the infrastructural improvements? How do you unlock the grip of the inelastic fueling schemes that oil companies have on us?  What is the best way to reduce energy conflicts that create global humanitarian, and land resource problems?  How do you intend to capture more than 3 percent of the market like hybrids have had with a broad selection of alternatives?   &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
While it sounds good to have a rainbow of choices, the realities are not here, and we must use the technologies that can be brought to market now while spending time with R&amp;D fixing problems with longer-term fuels like hydrogen.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sean t <br />
What broad approaches are there?</p>
<p>It is very important to remember that petroleum is heavily subsidized &#038; the true market price is severely distorted</p>
<p>Given the efficiencies of ICE engines and not paying the real price of gasoline creates the first real barrier to any alternatives.</p>
<p>Then ask yourself what technologies can directly compete with ICE?  Does the technology provide opportunities for market innovations? Does the technology create incentives for independent fueling? How much government funding and support is needed to encourage markets to grow? Can we afford to fund 4-5 different technologies for say 10-15 years?  Do you have the funding for the incentives needed to make all the infrastructural improvements? How do you unlock the grip of the inelastic fueling schemes that oil companies have on us?  What is the best way to reduce energy conflicts that create global humanitarian, and land resource problems?  How do you intend to capture more than 3 percent of the market like hybrids have had with a broad selection of alternatives?   </p>
<p>While it sounds good to have a rainbow of choices, the realities are not here, and we must use the technologies that can be brought to market now while spending time with R&#038;D fixing problems with longer-term fuels like hydrogen.</p>
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		<title>By: Samie</title>
		<link>http://www.hybridcars.com/toyotas-surprising-maneuver-50000-hydrogen-car-2015-27920/#comment-25291</link>
		<dc:creator>Samie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 May 2010 15:21:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://127.0.0.1/wordpress12/?p=6965#comment-25291</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As the old saying goes your putting the cart before the horse.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Hydrogen is great but like most nuclear rhetoric no one is actually advocating for the right, correct steps.  &lt;br /&gt;
Why would anyone put out a car like this when you don&#039;t have the storage or extraction parts of this energy figured out.  I have THREE REASONS FOR THIS:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
One we go back to the Bush years where hydrogen wooed politicians and the funding of it was in part to squash developing EV&#039;s.  Toyota is doing the same here, fool some idiot politicians with this special interest gold mine of a concept to slow down any real change away form ICE.  So here it is distract politicians with this and you slow down market forces that could rapidly change the cost, size, and storage limitations of the batteries for EV&#039;s.  Also if many don&#039;t adopt EV&#039;s, we could see the strangling of EV&#039;s by battery swapping schemes that would heavy discourage the development of new battery technologies. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Everyone and their mom that blogs on this site cares about Co2, Mpgs, and environmental concerns for any technology in a  vehicle.  I take a different view and add fueling independence as something that is just as important.  &lt;br /&gt;
So the point is there are 110 reasons why large businesses want you to always use a fueling station for your fuel and not provide energy to your vehicle yourself. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The next point, how is hydrogen extracted?  Right now it is done through the gas that is stored up in petroleum reserves.  Has storing it and extracting it  been done in a renewable commercially viable way? How much energy is needed to actually produce the hydrogen and can it be done at someones home or do we always need a big oil company to extract and distribute the hydrogen?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Before people again put hydrogen on the same level as EVs ask yourself these questions becasue without really thinking about it, you are being green washed and you are getting ahead of ourselves just as folks are with nuclear when they have no clue about water resource issues or how to recycle and/or renew its byproducts. Let&#039;s first develop the infrastructure not fake distractions that are only meant to egg on short-term schemes.  ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As the old saying goes your putting the cart before the horse.</p>
<p>Hydrogen is great but like most nuclear rhetoric no one is actually advocating for the right, correct steps.  <br />
Why would anyone put out a car like this when you don&#8217;t have the storage or extraction parts of this energy figured out.  I have THREE REASONS FOR THIS:</p>
<p>One we go back to the Bush years where hydrogen wooed politicians and the funding of it was in part to squash developing EV&#8217;s.  Toyota is doing the same here, fool some idiot politicians with this special interest gold mine of a concept to slow down any real change away form ICE.  So here it is distract politicians with this and you slow down market forces that could rapidly change the cost, size, and storage limitations of the batteries for EV&#8217;s.  Also if many don&#8217;t adopt EV&#8217;s, we could see the strangling of EV&#8217;s by battery swapping schemes that would heavy discourage the development of new battery technologies. </p>
<p>Everyone and their mom that blogs on this site cares about Co2, Mpgs, and environmental concerns for any technology in a  vehicle.  I take a different view and add fueling independence as something that is just as important.  <br />
So the point is there are 110 reasons why large businesses want you to always use a fueling station for your fuel and not provide energy to your vehicle yourself. </p>
<p>The next point, how is hydrogen extracted?  Right now it is done through the gas that is stored up in petroleum reserves.  Has storing it and extracting it  been done in a renewable commercially viable way? How much energy is needed to actually produce the hydrogen and can it be done at someones home or do we always need a big oil company to extract and distribute the hydrogen?</p>
<p>Before people again put hydrogen on the same level as EVs ask yourself these questions becasue without really thinking about it, you are being green washed and you are getting ahead of ourselves just as folks are with nuclear when they have no clue about water resource issues or how to recycle and/or renew its byproducts. Let&#8217;s first develop the infrastructure not fake distractions that are only meant to egg on short-term schemes.  </p>
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		<title>By: DownUnder</title>
		<link>http://www.hybridcars.com/toyotas-surprising-maneuver-50000-hydrogen-car-2015-27920/#comment-25290</link>
		<dc:creator>DownUnder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 May 2010 08:02:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://127.0.0.1/wordpress12/?p=6965#comment-25290</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[MrEnergy and Anonymous,&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I&#039;m for electric cars but the time to charge is still too long and once the car uses all the energy in the battery, it&#039;ll become a burden for the car. In the future, this will certainly improve but for the moment . . .&lt;br /&gt;
Energy problem (and environment) should be solved by a broad approach.&lt;br /&gt;
]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MrEnergy and Anonymous,</p>
<p>I&#8217;m for electric cars but the time to charge is still too long and once the car uses all the energy in the battery, it&#8217;ll become a burden for the car. In the future, this will certainly improve but for the moment . . .<br />
Energy problem (and environment) should be solved by a broad approach.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.hybridcars.com/toyotas-surprising-maneuver-50000-hydrogen-car-2015-27920/#comment-25289</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 May 2010 05:33:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://127.0.0.1/wordpress12/?p=6965#comment-25289</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Not sure if this is a positive move at all.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
First of all, it does not make sense to produce H2 to put in cars when electricity can be a direct power source. It&#039;s like inserting a middle man for a product, not very efficient.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Second of all, water vapor emissions may be more effective in trapping heat than greenhouse gas. This trend could accelerate climate change.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Someone needs to soundly address these concerns before I&#039;m sold on the technology.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not sure if this is a positive move at all.</p>
<p>First of all, it does not make sense to produce H2 to put in cars when electricity can be a direct power source. It&#8217;s like inserting a middle man for a product, not very efficient.</p>
<p>Second of all, water vapor emissions may be more effective in trapping heat than greenhouse gas. This trend could accelerate climate change.</p>
<p>Someone needs to soundly address these concerns before I&#8217;m sold on the technology.</p>
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		<title>By: MrEnergyCzar</title>
		<link>http://www.hybridcars.com/toyotas-surprising-maneuver-50000-hydrogen-car-2015-27920/#comment-25288</link>
		<dc:creator>MrEnergyCzar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 May 2010 01:20:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://127.0.0.1/wordpress12/?p=6965#comment-25288</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m no expert, but just a layman but this must be some kind of joke....it still takes more energy to make the hydrogen than what you get out of it...even if you electrolysize water using renewables you&#039;d be better off putting that electricity directly in a battery to run the electric motor rather than creating the hydrogen, compressing the hydrogen, then burning the hydrogen onboard to make electricity which goes in a battery or/and an electric motor anyway to move the car......]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m no expert, but just a layman but this must be some kind of joke&#8230;.it still takes more energy to make the hydrogen than what you get out of it&#8230;even if you electrolysize water using renewables you&#8217;d be better off putting that electricity directly in a battery to run the electric motor rather than creating the hydrogen, compressing the hydrogen, then burning the hydrogen onboard to make electricity which goes in a battery or/and an electric motor anyway to move the car&#8230;&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: ex-EV1 driver</title>
		<link>http://www.hybridcars.com/toyotas-surprising-maneuver-50000-hydrogen-car-2015-27920/#comment-25287</link>
		<dc:creator>ex-EV1 driver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 May 2010 00:04:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://127.0.0.1/wordpress12/?p=6965#comment-25287</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[BEW,&lt;br /&gt;
I have to disagree.  This is not a place where battery zealots should work on opposition.  With a nearly level playing field, the realities of the physics involved will show the best solution.  &lt;br /&gt;
Opposition is only needed when political forces force the hand of one technology or the other.&lt;br /&gt;
I think that the same $7500 tax rebates should apply to Toyota&#039;s FCHV, just as they do to GM&#039;s PHEV and Nissan&#039;s EV.  I also think that the same amount of government money should be spent on building public hydrogen fueling stations as public EV charging stations.&lt;br /&gt;
Let&#039;s see:  at $5 million for a hydrogen station, we could install 500 Level III EV charging stations (every 60 miles across I-10, I-40, I-70, I-80, I-90, I-5, I-15, and I-95).&lt;br /&gt;
Remember that the promise of Hydrogen was the excuse that was used to kill the ZEV mandate in California, freeing up the auto manufacturers to crush their EVs and keep selling ICE.  $1.5B of government money was put into developing (and probably lobbying for) hydrogen technology.  That should have been and was opposed - to no avail.&lt;br /&gt;
Toyota, bring on your FCHVs for $50K each!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BEW,<br />
I have to disagree.  This is not a place where battery zealots should work on opposition.  With a nearly level playing field, the realities of the physics involved will show the best solution.  <br />
Opposition is only needed when political forces force the hand of one technology or the other.<br />
I think that the same $7500 tax rebates should apply to Toyota&#8217;s FCHV, just as they do to GM&#8217;s PHEV and Nissan&#8217;s EV.  I also think that the same amount of government money should be spent on building public hydrogen fueling stations as public EV charging stations.<br />
Let&#8217;s see:  at $5 million for a hydrogen station, we could install 500 Level III EV charging stations (every 60 miles across I-10, I-40, I-70, I-80, I-90, I-5, I-15, and I-95).<br />
Remember that the promise of Hydrogen was the excuse that was used to kill the ZEV mandate in California, freeing up the auto manufacturers to crush their EVs and keep selling ICE.  $1.5B of government money was put into developing (and probably lobbying for) hydrogen technology.  That should have been and was opposed &#8211; to no avail.<br />
Toyota, bring on your FCHVs for $50K each!</p>
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		<title>By: BEW</title>
		<link>http://www.hybridcars.com/toyotas-surprising-maneuver-50000-hydrogen-car-2015-27920/#comment-25286</link>
		<dc:creator>BEW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 May 2010 22:26:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://127.0.0.1/wordpress12/?p=6965#comment-25286</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Toyota has been working and demonstrating fuel cell hybrids for years, just like GM and a whole host of others. A quick drive by the California Fuel Cell Partnership would seem to dispel the notion this is a new idea. With this announcement, Toyota is just doing what they predicted they would do 10 years ago! I think battery zealots should wake up to the fact that they do need to oppose hydrogen in order to advance their ideals. We all need to be working to get off oil. ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Toyota has been working and demonstrating fuel cell hybrids for years, just like GM and a whole host of others. A quick drive by the California Fuel Cell Partnership would seem to dispel the notion this is a new idea. With this announcement, Toyota is just doing what they predicted they would do 10 years ago! I think battery zealots should wake up to the fact that they do need to oppose hydrogen in order to advance their ideals. We all need to be working to get off oil. </p>
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