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	<title>Comments on: How much should you pay for fuel economy?</title>
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	<description>Auto alternatives for the 21st century</description>
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		<title>By: Mike Tieman</title>
		<link>http://www.hybridcars.com/price-of-fuel-economy/#comment-1736</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Tieman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Feb 2007 18:12:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://127.0.0.1/wordpress12/?p=500#comment-1736</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There is some new technology that cliams to make hybrids obsolete, www.omnivalves.com their intake valve gives any 4 stroke engine, low end troque similar to that of an electric motor. With the omnivalve you can dirve around town at RPMs lower then your average idle speed of a hybrid! Very interesting technology!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is some new technology that cliams to make hybrids obsolete, <a href="http://www.omnivalves.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.omnivalves.com</a> their intake valve gives any 4 stroke engine, low end troque similar to that of an electric motor. With the omnivalve you can dirve around town at RPMs lower then your average idle speed of a hybrid! Very interesting technology!</p>
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		<title>By: Guest</title>
		<link>http://www.hybridcars.com/price-of-fuel-economy/#comment-1735</link>
		<dc:creator>Guest</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Feb 2007 18:10:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://127.0.0.1/wordpress12/?p=500#comment-1735</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Confused about the various Hybrid mileage claims? The answer is in the assumptions used in the calculation. Based on actual fleet testing Hybrids use about .4 KWH per mile. This includes sitting stopped traffic with the air conditioner running, many accerations, and other factors that make city driving use more energy. Lighter, more carefully designed cars should be expected to use .35 KWH per mile. So if you want to hype the Hybrid mileage, you use .25 KWH per mile, reflective of steady state at optimum speed, say 40 MPH. But why stop there, if you are trying to hype Hybrids. Accepted driving figues say we drive on average about two thirds of the time in short daily commutes, and one third out on the highway for long distances. But we can fudge that and assume four fifths of our miles are short daily commutes within the AER of the vehicle being hyped, and only one fifth of the miles are highway.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
And finally, we can assume a very low cost for the electric from the socket, from &quot;its free&quot; to 7 cents per KWH. But the actually baseline rate in California is 13 cents per KWH.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Lets do a pure baloney calculation, the electic is free, so we go 300 miles, but only use the ICE for 60 miles, so we burn 2 gallons of gas, and say we get 150 MPG. This calculation is without merit. With this sort of calculation, we could use a 45 MPG ICE and used 1.33 gallons for a calculated 225 MPG.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So lets return to the real word. Lets use .35 KWH per mile and a cost of 13 cents per KWH. And lets say we drive 200 miles a week within the AER, and 100 using the ICE which gets 40 MPG. Lets say the gas costs $2.50 cents per gallon. 200 miles at .35 works out to 70 KWHs which costs $9.10. This cost is equivalent to (9.10 divided by 2.50) 3.64 gallons.&lt;br /&gt;
In sum, we drove 300 miles and used 2.5 gallons of gas bought at the pump and 3.64 &quot;gallons&quot; bought from the power company for a total of 6.14 gallons, which gives a mileage (300 divided by 6.14) of 49 MPG. You don&#039;t like that number, well plug in .07 cents per KWH and you get (70 x .07) $4.90 cents or (4.90 divided by 2.50) 1.96 gallons. This gives you a total of 4.46 gallons and a mileage of (300 divided by 4.46) 67 MPG. Want it still highter, raise the cost of gas to $3.00 per gallon an then (4.90 divided by 3.00) yeilds 1.6 gallons for a total of 4.1 gallons which gives you a miles of (300 divided by 4.1) 73 MPG.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Have fun generating any number you want.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Confused about the various Hybrid mileage claims? The answer is in the assumptions used in the calculation. Based on actual fleet testing Hybrids use about .4 KWH per mile. This includes sitting stopped traffic with the air conditioner running, many accerations, and other factors that make city driving use more energy. Lighter, more carefully designed cars should be expected to use .35 KWH per mile. So if you want to hype the Hybrid mileage, you use .25 KWH per mile, reflective of steady state at optimum speed, say 40 MPH. But why stop there, if you are trying to hype Hybrids. Accepted driving figues say we drive on average about two thirds of the time in short daily commutes, and one third out on the highway for long distances. But we can fudge that and assume four fifths of our miles are short daily commutes within the AER of the vehicle being hyped, and only one fifth of the miles are highway.</p>
<p>And finally, we can assume a very low cost for the electric from the socket, from &#8220;its free&#8221; to 7 cents per KWH. But the actually baseline rate in California is 13 cents per KWH.</p>
<p>Lets do a pure baloney calculation, the electic is free, so we go 300 miles, but only use the ICE for 60 miles, so we burn 2 gallons of gas, and say we get 150 MPG. This calculation is without merit. With this sort of calculation, we could use a 45 MPG ICE and used 1.33 gallons for a calculated 225 MPG.</p>
<p>So lets return to the real word. Lets use .35 KWH per mile and a cost of 13 cents per KWH. And lets say we drive 200 miles a week within the AER, and 100 using the ICE which gets 40 MPG. Lets say the gas costs $2.50 cents per gallon. 200 miles at .35 works out to 70 KWHs which costs $9.10. This cost is equivalent to (9.10 divided by 2.50) 3.64 gallons.<br />
In sum, we drove 300 miles and used 2.5 gallons of gas bought at the pump and 3.64 &#8220;gallons&#8221; bought from the power company for a total of 6.14 gallons, which gives a mileage (300 divided by 6.14) of 49 MPG. You don&#8217;t like that number, well plug in .07 cents per KWH and you get (70 x .07) $4.90 cents or (4.90 divided by 2.50) 1.96 gallons. This gives you a total of 4.46 gallons and a mileage of (300 divided by 4.46) 67 MPG. Want it still highter, raise the cost of gas to $3.00 per gallon an then (4.90 divided by 3.00) yeilds 1.6 gallons for a total of 4.1 gallons which gives you a miles of (300 divided by 4.1) 73 MPG.</p>
<p>Have fun generating any number you want.</p>
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		<title>By: Guest</title>
		<link>http://www.hybridcars.com/price-of-fuel-economy/#comment-1734</link>
		<dc:creator>Guest</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Feb 2007 18:10:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://127.0.0.1/wordpress12/?p=500#comment-1734</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[And If you&#039;re driving a five speed Insight and getting 72+ MPG (or about 50 MPG better than the average vehicle) that should be worth 5,000 to 20,000 dollars. Sweet! Yes, the last car was 14 years old when I retired it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And If you&#8217;re driving a five speed Insight and getting 72+ MPG (or about 50 MPG better than the average vehicle) that should be worth 5,000 to 20,000 dollars. Sweet! Yes, the last car was 14 years old when I retired it.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Guest</title>
		<link>http://www.hybridcars.com/price-of-fuel-economy/#comment-1733</link>
		<dc:creator>Guest</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Feb 2007 18:09:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://127.0.0.1/wordpress12/?p=500#comment-1733</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Also note that assuming a 80% drawdown before the ICE kicks in, a 20 KWH would provide 16 KWHs for AER, giving a range of 45 miles. So my calculation reflects how PHEVs would be used.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also note that assuming a 80% drawdown before the ICE kicks in, a 20 KWH would provide 16 KWHs for AER, giving a range of 45 miles. So my calculation reflects how PHEVs would be used.</p>
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		<title>By: Guest</title>
		<link>http://www.hybridcars.com/price-of-fuel-economy/#comment-1732</link>
		<dc:creator>Guest</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Feb 2007 18:08:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://127.0.0.1/wordpress12/?p=500#comment-1732</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi Common Sense, my use of Walter&#039;s formula represents the economic reality. The &quot;60&quot; MPG represents the equivlent cost of operating in the AER mode, based on a mileage of .35 KWHs per mile and a baseline cost of 13 cents per KWH. At (.35 x 13) 4.6 cents per mile, you could go 60 miles for $2.75, the cost of a gallon of gas.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Common Sense, my use of Walter&#8217;s formula represents the economic reality. The &#8220;60&#8243; MPG represents the equivlent cost of operating in the AER mode, based on a mileage of .35 KWHs per mile and a baseline cost of 13 cents per KWH. At (.35 x 13) 4.6 cents per mile, you could go 60 miles for $2.75, the cost of a gallon of gas.</p>
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		<title>By: Guest</title>
		<link>http://www.hybridcars.com/price-of-fuel-economy/#comment-1731</link>
		<dc:creator>Guest</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Feb 2007 18:07:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://127.0.0.1/wordpress12/?p=500#comment-1731</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Allow me to point out the Van and others are mistaken in how PHEV&#039;s would be used: With a PHEV range covering the round trip daily commutes of most Americans (40 miles or less each way), this may remove the gas almost COMPLETELY out of the commuting picture of many. Also... costs are not just drastically cut down by not using any gas, but on less maintenance costs and longer lived engines.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Although LiIon baterries are prohinbitively expensive now, the price is coming down... the cutting edge technologies being tried out by private entreupeneurs like TESLA motors is just the beginning.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
And again, if the political will is there, strict emissions controlls can be added to all emission sources, including coal. Anoter advantage of electric power vehicles is that the electricity can come from many sources (coal, natural gas, nuclear, wind... even wave energy).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Allow me to point out the Van and others are mistaken in how PHEV&#8217;s would be used: With a PHEV range covering the round trip daily commutes of most Americans (40 miles or less each way), this may remove the gas almost COMPLETELY out of the commuting picture of many. Also&#8230; costs are not just drastically cut down by not using any gas, but on less maintenance costs and longer lived engines.</p>
<p>Although LiIon baterries are prohinbitively expensive now, the price is coming down&#8230; the cutting edge technologies being tried out by private entreupeneurs like TESLA motors is just the beginning.</p>
<p>And again, if the political will is there, strict emissions controlls can be added to all emission sources, including coal. Anoter advantage of electric power vehicles is that the electricity can come from many sources (coal, natural gas, nuclear, wind&#8230; even wave energy).</p>
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		<title>By: Guest</title>
		<link>http://www.hybridcars.com/price-of-fuel-economy/#comment-1730</link>
		<dc:creator>Guest</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Feb 2007 18:06:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://127.0.0.1/wordpress12/?p=500#comment-1730</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[And in my first post, paying up to $14,850 for a PHEV makes economic sense according to Walter&#039;s formula. So at $500 per KWH, you could drop in a 20 KWH Lithium Ion battery into a Camry and sell it for around $36,000. And according to Walter&#039;s formula, getting in effect 53 MPG verse 26 would justify the additional $14,000 expense. But since currently the Lithium Ion Batteries cost about $1000 per KWH, the PHEV with 20 KWH Battery would cost $46,000 and would not make economic sense. Hence, no PHEV&#039;s until battery costs come down.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And in my first post, paying up to $14,850 for a PHEV makes economic sense according to Walter&#8217;s formula. So at $500 per KWH, you could drop in a 20 KWH Lithium Ion battery into a Camry and sell it for around $36,000. And according to Walter&#8217;s formula, getting in effect 53 MPG verse 26 would justify the additional $14,000 expense. But since currently the Lithium Ion Batteries cost about $1000 per KWH, the PHEV with 20 KWH Battery would cost $46,000 and would not make economic sense. Hence, no PHEV&#8217;s until battery costs come down.</p>
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		<title>By: Guest</title>
		<link>http://www.hybridcars.com/price-of-fuel-economy/#comment-1729</link>
		<dc:creator>Guest</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Feb 2007 18:06:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://127.0.0.1/wordpress12/?p=500#comment-1729</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Allow me to say how frivolouos this whole blog truly is when: (1) the more oil we use, the more terrorists car suck out of your household income... especially if an economic downturn results (2) the amount of money (per household) spent each year on medical costs related to fossil fuel use far outweight what anyone would pay for a hybrid; and my favorite (3) people don&#039;t hesitate to spend gobs of $$$ on wood trim, satellite radio, and other &quot;must haves&quot;... why not spend that money instead on helpng to clean the air we breath ? (4) purchasing a hybrid sends a clear message to our government and the auto industry that consumers require progressive change (as opposed to thje new GM hybrids that &quot;revolutionarily &quot; increase economy from 12- 16mpg ... what a joke ! ).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
By the above standard, hybrid technology is a downright bargain. If not, get an NGV vehicle that one can refuel from your garage, or the ultimate: ELECTRIC (coming soon regardless of what Detroit says).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As for those who say switching to electric just &quot;moves pollution&quot;... remember: it is MUCH easier to controll the emissions from afew hundred stacks that it is a few million tailpipes. All it takes is political will.&lt;br /&gt;
]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Allow me to say how frivolouos this whole blog truly is when: (1) the more oil we use, the more terrorists car suck out of your household income&#8230; especially if an economic downturn results (2) the amount of money (per household) spent each year on medical costs related to fossil fuel use far outweight what anyone would pay for a hybrid; and my favorite (3) people don&#8217;t hesitate to spend gobs of $$$ on wood trim, satellite radio, and other &#8220;must haves&#8221;&#8230; why not spend that money instead on helpng to clean the air we breath ? (4) purchasing a hybrid sends a clear message to our government and the auto industry that consumers require progressive change (as opposed to thje new GM hybrids that &#8220;revolutionarily &#8221; increase economy from 12- 16mpg &#8230; what a joke ! ).</p>
<p>By the above standard, hybrid technology is a downright bargain. If not, get an NGV vehicle that one can refuel from your garage, or the ultimate: ELECTRIC (coming soon regardless of what Detroit says).</p>
<p>As for those who say switching to electric just &#8220;moves pollution&#8221;&#8230; remember: it is MUCH easier to controll the emissions from afew hundred stacks that it is a few million tailpipes. All it takes is political will.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Guest</title>
		<link>http://www.hybridcars.com/price-of-fuel-economy/#comment-1728</link>
		<dc:creator>Guest</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Feb 2007 18:05:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://127.0.0.1/wordpress12/?p=500#comment-1728</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The idea is to justify paying more for a higher mileage car (Hybrid) then for a regular mileage car.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
For example you can buy a Camry with an overall mileage of 26, for $22,000 or a hybrid for 26,000. If the hybrid gets 10 MPG more, then paying $7070 more for the Hybrid makes economic sense according to Walter&#039;s formula.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The idea is to justify paying more for a higher mileage car (Hybrid) then for a regular mileage car.</p>
<p>For example you can buy a Camry with an overall mileage of 26, for $22,000 or a hybrid for 26,000. If the hybrid gets 10 MPG more, then paying $7070 more for the Hybrid makes economic sense according to Walter&#8217;s formula.</p>
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		<title>By: Guest</title>
		<link>http://www.hybridcars.com/price-of-fuel-economy/#comment-1727</link>
		<dc:creator>Guest</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Feb 2007 18:04:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://127.0.0.1/wordpress12/?p=500#comment-1727</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[$20,000 11 years ago and $20,000 in 2006 dollars are two very different numbers. your avalon agument is not completely thought through. ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>$20,000 11 years ago and $20,000 in 2006 dollars are two very different numbers. your avalon agument is not completely thought through. </p>
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