Okay, your link only provided idea on how profitable Prius was after 75k volume. But even the article mentioned that it did NOT included the initial R&D cost. Volt is “losing” money b/c the initial R&D cost, about $1.2Billion of it. Sure, American companies are usually “shortsighted” and want to make money asap and Japanese companies are much longer in their investment horizon. But we have NO way of knowing how profitable Prius is if we don’t include the initial R&D cost. Of course, Toyota is trying to spread out the cost across all of its Hybrid platforms to reduce cost.

Now, I applaud Toyota for taking a lead for doing this b/c it saw a gap in the market and it decided to lead in that segment and dominate that segment.

Let us go back to Volt. Volt was NEVER intended as a “pure hybrid” as Prius. The original blue prints were aimed at EVs. GM learned from its EV1 program that “range anxiety” or fears of range is the biggest issue with EV owners beside battery lifes. So, it decided to compromise in engineering term by strap an engine to the EV. That is why Volt is EV first and hybrid second. With that, there will be sacrifices. Weight and Cost are the two biggest factors. Weight will diminish MPG during its engine mode. Typically a 15% weight increase will reduce MPG by 10-12%. Volt is 600 lbs heavier than a Prius b/c its battery weight. That alone will reduce the MPG by about 15%. Volt also went in the design with some of the best battery management there is. (Obviously better than Nissan Leaf). That added cost and weight.

Let us talk about sitting. Sure, Volt lost 1 seat due to the battery. But most people don’t drive around with 5 people all the time. Majority of miles are driven with only 1 to 2 people. If you drive with 5 people most of the time, then you should get a 3 row vehicle or a minivan. Most cars even with 5 people seating can NOT properly fit 3 child seat in the back.

The problem with Lyle Dennis is the fact that his Wife bought a Leaf. So, his Volt becomes a “long range” family vehicle. That speaks the issue of the Volt as much as the issue with “range” on EVs.

With that, let us talk about range. Volt is NEVER intended to be a long range car. GM designed with the 40 miles in mind. Why? B/c 75% of America commutes that much per day. That is majority. And if you look at your typical driving, most of them are commuting miles. That is why Volt is designed for, to match EVs during the commuting miles AND allow you to have a longer trip without worrying about it. If you frequently drive hundreds and thousands of miles per day, then Volt is NOT for you. Cars all have different purpose. In those situations, Prius is a better long haul car. But once you are back to your “normal” life, Volt is more efficient. As far as your concern about gas stations. That is unfounded. I live in California and frequently visit all the national parks in the West. Driving through NV, AZ, NM, TX, UT, CO, ID, WY, OR, WA and MT are pretty typical for me in order to get to beautiful places. There has been a single time where I can’t find a gas station in the next 50 miles. Even in the national parks such as Yosemite and Sequoia, there are gas stations inside. The only place where I find service stations lacking is the drive between Alberta and BC along the Canadian hwy 1. There was a stretch where no gas stations for about 100 miles… Personally, I have to stop every 3-4 hours anyway for food and bathroom breaks or at least stretch my legs. That is exactly what the Volt range offers. On the hwy, Volt is rated 40mpg in extended mode and that is 360miles+ in range with 9.3 gallons. Even with the 35mpg, that is 310 miles+ in range. Plenty for 4 hours stretch….

As far as performance go, well, performance matters. Sure, driver is the most important factor. But given anything else are the same, Volt performs better even with 600lbs extra weight. You would think Prius would blow the Volt away with that much more advantage in weight and weight/hp. But it doesn’t. That is b/c Toyota has tuned the car for nothing but efficiency. Akinson cycle engines are known to have high efficiency but low power and especially low torque. It is nothing new. It has been invented 120 years ago. But it hasn’t taken off until recently b/c the low power and low torque. Hybrid uses electric motor to supplement the lack of torque for this simple reason. Maybe some people would love to have better performance with little trade off in MPG. Volt’s EV powertrain is about 2x more efficient than Prius’s engine. That is where it shines.

At the end, Volt and Prius are in two different world. Prius is a “benchmark” hybrid which gives you the best MPG possible. Volt is a plugin hybrid/EREV. It is a high tech vehicle that gets you as closely to an EV as possible without worrying about running out of charges. Each will operate with superior efficiency in their own element.

Mr. EnergCzer’s point was that as good as Prius was in efficiency, in his personal commute model, Volt saved him even more gas. But if you are a long haul driver or daily salesman who put hundreds of miles on the car per day, then Volt is NOT for you. But that should be the minority of commuters…

The day after we got the plates, we took our Prius on a 3200 mile trip, Midwest to East Coast and back. I’m suuuuure your Volt would be “running in the 160mpg range” on that kind of trip, especially if you stop every 60 minutes for 8 hours to charge.

It’s a small thing, really but, when on a trip, I no longer bother to fill up the car at night so as to be ready to roll in the morning. And I can check the GasBuddy gas price heat map and pick cities to refuel that are less expensive.

None of our previous cars were “guzzlers” but our usual travel vehicle had a practical range of 350-375 miles (at 30mpg) and the other had a practical range of 425 miles (at 25mpg). Out West, away from the Interstates and major cities, it’s surprising how fast you run to the end of a tank… and not many places to refuel.

The reliable 500 miles with a 100 mile reserve in the Prius is rather nice.

Out of your driveway, on a multi-day trip, the Volt has 35+325 miles of maximum range. After the first refuelling stop, that’s down to just 325 miles maximum range. Your practical range will be much less and it’s probably going to start whining at you to refuel at 250-275.

Toyota was the true pioneer, here. They weren’t selling the cars at a loss as of December, 2001. I don’t see where GM’s making any kind of money or even decent unit volume on a full hybrid even as of today. Toyota will now sell you a real hybrid for $19K. GM will sell you a kinda-sorta-hybrid that occasionally shuts the engine off, maybe, for nearly $26K. El Lutzbo promised to lose money on their best-selling hybrid (best-selling courtesy of Uncle Sam), “for years.” There’s no reason to believe the unit cost on the Volt is less than the revenue at this point.

The Volt’s revenue, too, has been seriouisly eroded by the fact that, in addition to the various state and federal gifts that help shove Volts off the lots, GM is subventing leases. That’s not free to GM and it pushes breakeven further out.

Did the Prius receive so much “hate?” Of course not. Go reread my post. GM spend 4 years ballyhooing the Volt and delivered a vehicle that underwhelms and let it trickle out of the factory. They’re getting the feedback they deserve.

I hadn’t noticed that the Prius “sucks” in all performance categories. 99% of performance is the driver. I don’t need ridiculous amounts of torque to get the job done and I stopped worrying about who got left behind at stoplights when I grew up.

By the bye, yes, the Prius is larger but you should not pooh-pooh this. Turns out that seating 4 IS a problem. I notice that Lyle Dennis finally admitted this, too, and voted with his feet.

You wrote:” “you’ll see my front bumper in your rearview” comment? Not likely my friend. In fact, in the long run the Prius has a higher top end. I keep listing more Volt beating facts if you like.”

List another performance spec out there beside top speed?

By the time your Prius got to the top speed, Volt is already at its destination.

Prius is slower in 0-60mph, 1/4, brakes worse and worse in handling. How many other poor performance spec do you want?

The miles per tank thing is RETARDED. it has to do wth gas tank size. Sure, efficient helps, but gas tanks size matter. As far as MPG goes, My Volt is running in the 160mpg range.
6500 miles and 39.5 gallons used. See if you slow Prius can do the same?

As far as 37mpg goes, Volt is designed so that is NOT needed. There are plenty of cars with better MPG than the Volt. But Volt is the only one that can do that performance in the EV mode. Show me another EV for under $45k that is as fast as Volt.

List the fact or shut your Prius hole and enjoy your “short bus” performance, idiot.

Maybe you need to learn to read a few thing about your own link…

Your LA times links said it the best: “Though the cars are no longer sold at a loss, profit from sales remains insufficient for Toyota to recoup its initial investment and development costs, General Manager Shigenobu Uchikawa said.”

So, even according to the Reuter’s article that Volt is only losing money b/c its inital $1.2Billion Investment. It is currently making money on a per car basis without including the R&D and tooling cost. Now, IN YOUR SAME link, Toyota admit that it didn’t even reach breakeven point (outside of the R&D investment) until it reaches 75,000 units. According to the same critical Reuter’s article, Volt would be close to breaking even at 75,000 units with its initial R&D investment.

Maybe you need to read your own crap before you post again.

As far as Prius to Volt comparison. Did Prius receive so much “hate” during its initial phase? NO. Volt has to face many “non-issue” hate from the start. From a technology point of view, Volt is the GM’s first attempt of building a series-hybrid or EV with extender range. Volt is built from ground up as an EV. Its main power source is Electric motor. Engine is only there to supplement. Even when it does help power the wheel, it is at 70mph+ in range extended mode.

Now, as far as Prius Plugin vs. Volt sales comparison go, Volt sales have been helpped ever since HOV access is approved which PIP gets from the start of the launch. In just about every month except for one, Volt has dominated PIP in sales ever since PIP launches.

Volt didn’t get the HOV access in California until March this year. Prius I and Prius II had a huge HOV access base since the beginning. And since CA accounts for more than 1/3 of the total Volt sales and Prius being one of the top brand in CA (now the best selling brand), it matters how it does in CA.

Also, Prius sucks in just about all performance category, braking, handling, 0-60mph all sucks comparing to Volt. Sure, it is larger and seats 5, but even with its far lower weight (which helps performance) it couldn’t beat Volt in anything except its top speed which is rarely useful.

As far as your stupidity question, learn to read your own quote and sources before you post the stupid link would make you look smarter…

Now, who is the idiot who can’t even ready his own links?

Please keep the jokes running. I like a good laugh in the morning.

Just remember once that 35 mile EV range runs out you’re toast. The Volt becomes a very expensive econobox with it’s 37mpg rating that can be beat by the Hyundai Accent, Ford Focus, Chevy Cruze Eco for half the money. There’s your POS right there. Oh and once you run out of that battery charge you’ll be filling up every 350 miles or less. Me? Well I’ll keep on filling up every 500+ miles because I’ll consistently pull down the same mpg’s. Oh and don’t forget my Prius comes with more features for less money.
And that whole “you’ll see my front bumper in your rearview” comment? Not likely my friend. In fact, in the long run the Prius has a higher top end. I keep listing more Volt beating facts if you like.

Oh and the Prius outsold the Volt in it’s first 3 years vs. the Volt’s 3 years. You may want to recheck your facts on that.

No one likes a sore loser especially one that continues to lie and twist the truth.

So shut your piehole son.

I meant to address that.

http://articles.latimes.com/2001/dec/19/autos/hy-prius19

And did you look up the comparative sales of the PHV and the Volt, yet? As it happens, I do happen to have the figures on hand:

Volt Dec 2010 through Jun 2011 – 3071
PHV March 2012 through Sep 2012 – 7734

These are US-only figures. Not that any Volts were sold overseas in that time period but the PHV has been selling in Japan since Feb.

“Prius had its shares of incentives as well in its early launch days and certainly had WAY LESS critics.”

As to the incentives, no. At launch, nothing. Shortly after, a tax DEDUCTION that worked out to about a $600-700 benefit was introduced. The Federal Volt Candy is ten times that amount. Prius sales took off before the next phase of credits, which were serious, kicked in. Prius sales took off when the Gen II Prius showed up, because it was a highly practical little car and Toyota was getting the price under control.

And, as for critics… As GM sows, so shall GM reap. GM honked on and on and on about this car for almost four solid years. It would “leapfrog Toyota,” it would get 50/50/600, “nicely under $30K,” El Lutzbo could be found in the press, whining that Toyota was dissing GM’s car (Toyota didn’t) and making other inane remarks on a weekly basis. They had a Volt Advisory Board before they had a Volt. When the car finally hit the streets… many of GM’s initial claims were unfulfilled. That’s the kind of thing that leads to backlash.

Toyota kept its mouth shut and delivered what they could deliver. People didn’t get excited over what they didn’t get, they just looked to see what they could get and found that it was an interesting and useful advance in automotive technology. GM could learn from that. EL Lutzbo could take advice from Mark Twain:

“Better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than to open it and remove all doubt.”

Sure, go there.

– Did the gen 1 Prius get $7500 in federal tax givebacks? Answer: No.
– Was it priced at over twice the price of a regular compact car? Answer: No.
– Was that over a decade ago? Answer: Yes.
– Did Toyota have the experience of being able to read successes and failures in the gas-electric market for a decade, to determine what would and would not sell? Answer: No.
– Was the gen 1 Prius their third (or fourth, or fifth, depending on how you count it) attempt at a gas-electric vehicle? Answer: No. But the Volt is GM’s fifth try (2004 non-selling Silverado with BAS, 2008 non-selling SUVs with Two-Mode hybrid, 2008 BAS Epsilons and 2008 Saturn Vue Green Line BAS)
– Did consumers have any familiarity with gas-electric vehicles? Answer: No.
– Was gas selling for nearly $4? Answer: No, it was much less expensive.
– Did Toyota fiddle around with dealer allocations in an effort to confuse people as to whether or not the thing was in demand? Answer: No… but GM sure did. Toyota had interested customers sign up on the web and routed cars to whoever ended up ordering one.
– Did they over-promise and under-deliver (50/50/600, nicely under $30K)? Answer: No. Toyota said very little about the car until it a couple months before it hit the streets.

So, yeah, the Volt to the Gen 1 Prius is a great comparison. Except that there’s no comparison. The gas price and federal giveback differentials alone make it a ridiculous desperation play on the part of Volt FanBoyz.

Now, the Prius PHV to the Volt, that would be a much more relevant comparison. The product introductions were only about 16 months apart, they’re the same kind of vehicle, fuel prices are comparable and the Prius PHV gets a tax rebate (smaller but it also has less range). The consumers have more understanding of what gas-electric cars are all about. Why don’t you go get the sales numbers and compare the first 8 or so months of the Prius PHV to the first 8 or so months of the Volt and let me know what you find?

Okay, you started the comparison.

Volt has been released for less than 3 years. It has sold more than Prius did in its “first 3 years”.

Currently, it sells more than the entire Plugin market is combined. (The rest of the plugin market all get the $7,500 unless you are the Prius and C-Max PHEV). Prius had its shares of incentives as well in its early launch days and certainly had WAY LESS critics.

Now, the current Prius is a good car and it is selling well. But Prius Plugin is a very “poor attempt” by Toyota.

Comparing Prius to Volt is like Comparing Camry to BMW 3-series.

A lowered priced “main stream” family car will sell better than a higher technology, higher performance and higher priced vehicle.

Sure, give Toyota credit for launching Prius. It pushed the auto market into hybrid world. I am hoping Volt will do the same and push people into “EV” market (Volt does it with a large step without owners worrying about range). As we have seen over and over again, Toyota has NO desire of seriously entering any kind of EV market and WE HAVE NO DATA OR IDEA of how long did it take for Toyota to make money on the Prius family or its design.

It was a Billion dollar “long term” investment by Toyota 14 years ago….