Water Hybrids Work
Created September 15, 2008, at 1:12 pm by hybridman2
I'd like to see more discussion on hydrogen hybrid technology which is spreading around the world quickly. I design and build as well as install and we see an average of 40-50% increase in mileage.
As a technology available to more people, it is increasingly popular because it's affordable- for both do-it-yourselfers and kit buyers.
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So bush has signed a $25B "Loan" to the auto industry, to help them convert to building more energy efficient vehicles. Uhhh- what have they been doing for the last 40 years since the last energy crisis?
I'd be willing to wage this loan will never be repaid...
You are right.Hydrogen fuel cells are the only hope we have for the near future.I think more research has to be done to improve its efficiency.
Yes, absolutely I agree. Currently the average Hydrogen Generator outputs about 1.0 - 2.0 LPM (Liters Per Minute) of HHO gas (mixture of hydrogen and oxygen). The lousy ones make .5 or less. I have made some that hit 3.0 liters but ran too high on current to sustain that level.
The great news is that people around the world are building these water hybrids and affecting change. The internet has opened up the world and connected experimenters far and wide to build and test new designs and models, so efficiencies continue to increase.
My feeling is that these are the perfect "Transitional Technology" to make the jump from all gas to all electric vehicles over the coming decades.
Bob,
I'd love to believe you but you've got to give us some reason to believe that what you've got works. I don't understand how it improves anything so you need to give us something substantial.
Can't you get a neutral lab to certify you. Perhaps if you don't have enough cash to pay a lab, you could start with just some local community college with an auto repair professor that might verify gas mileage improvement.
I could also point you to other neutral labs that might certify your stuff as well if you like.
Hi ex-EV1 driver - we are actually going to be doing that soon. Right now our main focus has been R&D to refine and produce the most efficient generators with a small enough footprint to fit any car.
Currently our testing has been confined to actual road tests and mileage checks, as well as bench top production model measurements using hhometers and lab quality air/gas flow meters.
Nothing really matters to me unless it's practical. The bottom line is- will it work and can it save people money. I've seen various iterations with guys touting enormous LPM (liters per minute), but the generators are so huge they have to strap it to their bumper or put it in their trunk. Others are dismal under performers (like the glass mason jars you see around) and are useless for long term.
Once we have our final testing done and have finished modifying our commercial grade model, then we will do a full lab test by an independent company, and various smog/emissions testing as well. I'll keep you posted on that...
Our goal is to shrink it down to the smallest most efficient model available, and we're very close. We have investors wanting to sponsor us and have some pretty big news coming up, which I cannot talk about yet.
Regarding how it works... it's not some "free energy" model like many are shouting, not by a long shot. But given that the IC engine is only about 20% or less efficient (actually watched a report the other day that only 6% of the energy in gas actual makes it to the wheels) it doesn't take much to increase mileage.
Hydrogen burns at 40,000 FPS, gasoline only 4,000 FPS (feet per second). SO when you inject a small amount of hydrogen and oxygen into the air/fuel mix, the hydrogen burns fast and with an incredible force. That results in less gas needed.
The lower heat results because hydrogen burns so fast that heat has less time to transfer to the cylinder walls. I've seen as much as 10 degree drop, but more usually about 5.
It burns so much extra particulate and unburned fuel that you can put a white rag on the exhaust and do a before and after test. Before- black ring, after - clean rag, no ring. We'll be filming one of these tests soon as well.
There's a whole lot more that can be said, but I'll save that for another post.
I appreciate the skepticism - I was one myself until I saw it actually work.
Ok Bob,
Lets start with exactly what you say and sanity check it. I don't have a lot of time so I'll work each paragraph in order, one at a time:
First of all, you say that:
Right now our main focus has been R&D"
>> your website looks more like a high energy sales pitch than any other R&D effort I've ever seen - sanity check fails
to refine and produce the most efficient generators with a small enough footprint to fit any car.
>> ok, so you're trying to generate as much of something as you can. I'll assume that you're generating hydrogen by seperating water (H2O) into 2 parts Hydrogen and 1 part Oxygen. If this is the case, you'll need some form of energy to do this conversion since the hydrogen and oxygen are pretty tightly connected in water because of what is called the "Hydrogen Bond". The best conversion efficiencies that I've seen are about 50% efficient, ie, for every unit of energy you put into splitting the H and O from the H2O, you get half a unit of energy worth of Hydrogen energy (because that Hydrogen wants to find an Oxygen molecule and get back to being nice, stable H2O again) and half a unit of heat energy is created which is hard to recover very much in a small, cheap, mobile, vehicle so essentially it is wasted. This means that half of whatever energy you're using to break your water down is being wasted. You may have found some great catalyst that wastes less energy but you haven't told me anything about this and thus, I'm skeptical. sanity check fails
Currently our testing has been confined to actual road tests and mileage checks, as well as bench top production model measurements using hhometers and lab quality air/gas flow meters.
>> again, unless your actual road tests and mileage checks are done under controlled conditions by unbiased witnesses, this is just rhetoric (paper never refuses ink). I'm also curious as to what an hhometer is. This sounds somewhat suspicious. If it is a real, commercially produced instrument, please tell me where I can get one. If it is a homebrewed machine, I'd like to hear how it works. sanity check inconclusive.
Stay tuned for my look at your next paragraph in the future.
No problem, glad to discuss it.
regarding sales page- you went to wrong page for kits. The "high powered" sales pitch is our book that was originally written to help people understand, build and install these in their car using readily available parts. The vast majority of the sales fee is to cover commissions to the affiliates who do a great job of getting it out there. The profits help to pay for further research and testing, refining of product.
Kits are at hhokitsdirect.com (can't put links anymore ala request from hc.com) and are aimed at those that understand the technology and just want to install. The site will be refined as time permits, but right now, we're too busy building and selling with requests coming from around the world. I even have a high end custom auto manufacturer wanting to develop a product line specifically for their 100K+ cars.
So, we are not approaching this as some flash in the pants journey. Results will top theory anytime.
I'm well aware of the hydrogen bond and efficiencies. I'm also keenly aware of the inefficiencies of current IC motors. By itself, HHO gas will not run an IC engine smoothly without a huge production rate (about 10 LPM for a small 5 horsepower 4 stroke) which takes about 4000 watts of input. Certainly not self-running, but highly efficient.
However, when mixed with gas or diesel in the air/fuel mix, it is extremely efficient, a very small amount can make the gas burn much cleaner, more thoroughly than current combustion cycles without it.
I'm glad to discuss this and continue the conversation - I don't mind skepticism, name calling/sanity checks are not necessary. Let's reason together.
I agree that independent testing is most definitely where the industry will gain credibility, which is why I said we are planning to do just that. We are developing an aggressive business plan and have investors ready to put hard cash into this venture. Our goal is to legitimize a fledgling industry that has incredible potential. Just because there are some who are wackos out there does not discount that the technology has incredible possibilities.
Regarding HHOmeter, it's a new term to describe a measurement device designed to measure density and Liters Per Minute production rates of HHO generators. It's low tech and inexpensive to make, reminiscent of the early days of magnetism and electricity, where devices needed to be made to give an indication of power, resistance, etc.
"If it is a real, commercially produced instrument, please tell me where I can get one. If it is a homebrewed machine, I'd like to hear how it works." Why? are you going to try and actually build one of these? :)
That's all for now,
Bob
hybridwaterpower.com
Ok, I don't particularly buy your response however, I'll take a look at your second paragraph:
Nothing really matters to me unless it's practical. The bottom line is- will it work and can it save people money. I've seen various iterations with guys touting enormous LPM (liters per minute), but the generators are so huge they have to strap it to their bumper or put it in their trunk. Others are dismal under performers (like the glass mason jars you see around) and are useless for long term.
>> ok, I'll just look at this "issue" you present. If your Hydrogen (H2) generators are huge and you say that the key to your scheme is to inject a small amount of H2 into a normal Gasoline cylinder, why not just carry a small bottle of H2 onboard and inject it. This would seperate the confusion between H2 generation and efficiency gain. Since I don't understand how injecting H2 into and ICE (Internal Combustion Engine) would make it operate more efficient, this way, you could at least give me some quantative information about what kinds of ratios would provide how much improvement.
Now a look at your 'generators'
'Generators' that seperate H2 from H2O must use some sort of energy to break the hydrogen bonds. I'm assuming that you're getting it from electricity, presumably from the existing alternator which gets its energy from the engine. This means that there would have to be some efficiency increase caused by the H2 injection that greatly exceeds the extra drag on the engine caused by the H2 'generator'.
Again, seperating the H2 generation from the injection into the ICE would help a lot -- assuming this 'generator' issue isn't just a means of obfuscation to cover up a scam.
"-- assuming this 'generator' issue isn't just a means of obfuscation to cover up a scam."
Umm, ok, if you'd like to continue our conversation, I'm willing. But if you are approaching this as a means to constantly denigrate what I do, then I don't have the time. I don't find a way to slam you in every post, even though I disagree with your position - I expect the same.
Regarding H2 tanks - H2 is different than HHO, the Hydrogen bonds are different when separated from O and compressed together. It takes a tremendous amount of energy to break the bond, and even more to then compress it in 10,000 psi tanks for later use.
The generators, or electrolyzers, do not separate the H2 from the oxygen, the gases remix above the water and are sucked into the intake immediately- no compression, no storage,on-demand.
Unlike H2, HHO cannot be stored aand compressed- it is too volatile which is why it is perfect for this setting.
H2 by itself can also cause "embrittlement" of the metal, which is why BMW and others trying to develop pure H2 cars have to redesign an engine to handle it.
Regarding energy required: yes it draws energy from the alternator, but very little extra horsepower. Alternators are designed to handle a LOT of extra amps because of today's current demand- an HHO generator 20-25 amps at 13.8 volts which is roughly about 345 watts - less than a good stereo amp would draw.
Now to the math issue:
1) The best I.C.E. is 18% efficient, 20% on a good day.
2) The process of brute force electrolysis today has been pushed to about 85% Faraday.
Note: Based on the caloric energy available from burning Hydrogen, by using Faraday’s “Law” to translate from electrical energy it is estimated that 100% efficient hydrogen electrolysis is achieved by creating somewhere between 5.5-7.5 milliliters of gas per minute per watt of energy consumed. Members of our research group have run the numbers several ways which all seem to point to around 7.0 m/m/w or mmw for short. Many of our cells have operated as high as 6mmw or roughly 85% efficient
3) The product of electrolysis is HHO which has it’s own energy value, up to 85% of what we put in.
If all we considered was the return of energy value when we inject the HHO as a suppliment to gasoline, then yes; Conservation of energy applies.
HOWEVER!
HHO as an additive does more than return 80% of the energy we put in to create it. It’s properties enhance the slow burning gasoline, speeding up the rate of combustion, causing much more of the total combustion process to be translated into mechanical energy rather than being lost as waste heat out the tail pipe, raising the efficiency of the total system. Returning to the simple math…
4) Let’s say we’re able to translate just 10% more of the total system energy to mechanical energy. We have still not violated conservation of energy, only raised the total system efficiency to 28%. But that’s an increase of 55%!!! Now deduct the energy loss of 15% to create the HHO that made this possible and you still end up with a total net gain of 40%!
This is not rocket science. It’s simple math. And it works. The reality is some are getting even more, up to 35% mechanical efficiency, 94% gain, -15% to create the HHO, 79% total net gain. That’s 54 MPG on a car that started out at 30. People are doing this. It is working. The move is on and there is no stopping it.
That's all for now.
Please discuss without name calling or accusations EV-1 or I have better things to do.
Bob
Bob,
You're throwing things out that I never saw in chemistry class so I'm deferring to higher authorities before declaring it to be meaningless technobabble that you or someone else made up. If you have a minute, you might go back and try to help me understand what this HHO stuff you refer to really is from a traditional physical chemistry perspective. Is it a molecule of some kind?
I'll try to get back to you in a few days, after I've consulted with others who are smarter than me. I'm lucky to be able to hang out with some of the smartest people in the world so I'll see if I can pursuade some of them to help me debunk your scheme. Most of them won't give you the time of day but they may help me out.
Regarding my brusk nature, I only agreed to deal with your statements, even though I believe them to be unfounded. I will try to avoid any name calling but I do reserve the right to call things as I see them. I will try to avoid superflous name calling but "ignorant", "scam", and "fraud" are not just names if they are true, whether or not someone likes them.
I grow tired of people selling perpetual motion machines (like bumper propellers with generators to charge the batteries in an EV) , unobtanium reactors, conveniently missed details, the Brooklyn Bridge, and other fantasy schemes shaming and scaring well intentioned investors when we really need that capital to find solutions to our planet's very real energy problems.
"Most of them won't give you the time of day but they may help me out."
Are you really this pompous? You have no idea who will and who won't give me the time of day. I constantly consult with others who are brilliant in their fields and am working with some now to take our company to the next phase. We have companies and investors who see the viability of our products.
While you spend your time trying to debunk what I do, I'm experimenting, building and testing better and more efficient models, installing them in vehicles, and getting referrals because of positive results.
I have no more time to deal with you and your arrogance if this is your only goal. I will use my time to actually work on developing things that will help our world- what are you doing except spending your time cutting down others that don't fit your pre-concieved notions?
I thought I could get an intelligent conversation going- something that appears to be impossible with you.
Bob
Ok,
I give up. Your explanation of HHO makes no sense to me or the Chemstry Professors I've spoken with.
Hydrogen is a pretty simple element and it is highly unlikely that there are any unknown stable molecules that can be created from it that people familiar with traditional chemistry don't know about.
I guess you've found some sort of new chemistry.
Again, call me pompous to deflect the fact that I'm calling your bluff but read your own posts first and you'll probably find us both in the pompous category but I have a long record of successful technological accomplishments and I doubt that you do (not that I know who you are).
I don't profess to know everything, nor do I claim that my sources do either (that's not too pompous is it?).
In my mind, there's about a 99% chance that you're promoting just another snake oil, perpetual motion scheme. Show it to me or get a neutral 3rd party to certify your claims and I'll believe you. Why don't you schedule a public demonstration of your system at Hybridfest 2009 (Madison, WI) or Alt Car Expo (Santa Monica, CA) next year as I'm going to try to be at both of these.
I won't trouble you with any further discussions on your scheme or any other similar ones.
Hi Bob,
I'm not smart just mechanically inclined. I don't believe your advertising a scam here. I think that the average person doesn't know enough science to understand the chemistry invovled in this process. And your always going to have "smart" guys that would rather verbally debate you then actually try to physically refute what you trying to do here. My question is if I buy one of these kits and I'm not satisfied will I be refunded and If I am satisfied and keep the the kit, what is the durability and life span of one of these. Have you had enough R+D to even know what the life span is? Any feedback would be appreciated, I will not come back to you with skepticism and try to question every answer you have. Thanks for your time and consideration.
Hi Shaun,
I have no problem answering any questions regarding this technology as long as people are willing to have an open minded, intelligent discussion.
To answer your questions, We offer a one year warranty on current models and guarantee mileage increase or you can take the kit out and send it back for a refund.
The Hydrogen Generator Kits are quite durable made with high quality 316L stainless steel plates and will last for many years - can be transferred from one car to the next. The only maintenance required is to flush and re-fill with fresh distilled water and electrolyte about every three months (just like an oil change), this keeps the thing running at maximum efficiency.
If you have any other questions, feel free to ask.
Bob
Transitional Technologies, LLC
Great Idea! I've contacted both of them to inquire about exhibitor prices. We are factoring 2-4 exhibits a year into our business plan. Thanks for the heads up. I'll let you know if we are able to attend - love to show you what we have in person, with a vehicle on hand.
I love the idea of the MPG contest at hybridfest. I asked them what the requirements are there as well, since the best demo is real life competition.
Bob
Transitional Technologies, LLC
Hi all,
While I came down pretty hard on hybridman2, I've continued to dig further into what the introduction of hydrogen into an ICE cylinder would do.
Unfortunately, I can't find anything quantitative or substantive, but, there is some evidence that hydrogen may help, as hybridman2 says with the gasoline-air combustion. Likewise, a little water in the cylinder may help too but it can destroy the cylinders.
Making up silly names like HHO or "Brown's gas", doesn't help anything.
My suggestion for Transitional Technologies is to cut the HHO/Brown's gas nomenclature and get with traditional science. Also, I suggest you cut the attempts to generate Hydrogen (H2) onboard and carry a small tank of H2. Then compare the fuel efficiency gain of simply injecting the H2 into your engine and not injecting it. You can also determine the quantitative benefit of how much H2 should be injected. This should determine the value of the H2, then, the only issue will be: what is the best way to get your H2. I'll bet that some cheesy onboard generator is not the best way but I'll look forward to your witnessed results.
Actually, introducing pure hydrogen into a normal ICE engine is not good, at least in quantities that would matter. It has to be compressed to be stored- when it it released into the engine it expands and is extremely cold- this can cause embrittlement to the interior of the engine.
Just so you know Ex-EV1, I didn't invent the name HHO. If you want to do some research- look into Yull Brown who is the researcher that discovered its unique properties in the late 60's. Until recently it was more commonly called "Brown's Gas". He also was the one who discovered what traditional science would not - it's OK to allow the remixing of H and O after separating them into their constituent gases.
Cheesy generators- nice. We wouldn't have even been distributing yet if it were not for the demand for our products. If you think we are resting there you are as mistaken as your assumptions.
We are currently designing commercial grade models that will blow away the handmade units being sold around the world. We are in negotiations with an auto manufacturer about designing an OEM unit for their vehicles (unfortunately not one of the Big 3). We are developing a vehicle system for the coming Xprize competition.
What are doing except griping and moaning that it can't be done. Thank God you weren't around when the wright brothers were working on their plane - of course there were plenty of engineers like you back then that were shouting loudly it wouldn't fly. Do you realize how closely your own accusations sounds to back then?
IS this niche perfected? Not by a long shot. Are there still breakthroughs that need to happen? You bet. Same thing in every alternative technology available today. We need better batteries, better motors, more efficient ICE's and combustion processes. That's our goal. That's what we are striving for.
Or we could just bury our head in the sand and shout expletives at anyone that tries something new.
Why don't you focus your anger on someone else for awhile- like the BIg 3 that can't keep up with technology breakthroughs and yet have their hand out again for more money...
Transitional Technologies, LLC
Hybrid Water Power is a transitional technology
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