These are not HYBRIDS!
Created June 16, 2007, at 11:48 am by Kirkman
I can't figure for the life of me, why someone would purchase a vehicle that cannot run on electric alone. Can some one please fill me in! Also how are these even considered hybrids?
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They are hybrids.....just very unimpressive ones compared to the Toyota or Honda technology. They do have a battery that does recover energy from braking and this is good enough for GM to call it a hybrid (but not good enough for you, and your point is understood). The reason for someone buying would be better gas mileage than the none-hybrid version....or/and lower pollution. Both very good reasons that should be encouraged....and if encouraged enough may make the next car an even better hybrid. If you are a GM employee and have a company discount, this may be the best choice for a hybrid vehicle. (or maybe the only choice.)
Unimpressive is right! The Aura hybrid gets an EPA rated 27 mpg combined. The regular Aura gets 21.
An extra 6 mpg -- BFD!
BFD....only a 6 mpg increase...you are mistaken!
You have to start improving the gas mileage somewhere. Let's have a math lesson. 6mpg improvement on a 21mpg Aura is a 28.5% increase in fuel effciency. (6/21) I think a 28.5% increase in gas mileage is a significant improvement. (I think we would all like to get 28.5% more of something.)
If you look at the SUV category here is the breakdown:
For the Saturn Vue Hybrid 2008 epa ratings 26mpg vs 23mpg for the non Vue Hybrid. A 13% increase.
Granted there are two stage SUV Hybrids that get better results.
Ford Escape Hybrid gets 30mpg as compared to the non hybrid Escape's 21mpg. 42.9% increase
Toyota Highlander 2WD Hybrid gets 26mpg vs 19mpg. 36.8% increase
Mecury Mariner 4WD Hybrid gets 37mpg vs 20mpg. 35% increase.
However, the Saturn Vue comes with the lowest price tag by far.
To answer the other statement in this post - "why would anyone want to buy a Saturn Vue Hybrid" - the answer can be found in my other post.
I purchased a 2007 Saturn Hybrid Vue after my 1995 Saturn SC2 with 160,000 miles on it blew a cylinder. I choose the Saturn Hybrid Vue over the Ford Escape, Mercury Mariner the Toyota Highlander for a few reasons.
#1> I was satisfied with Saturn brand from my previous car. The last time a drove a Ford was a Ford Tempo back in college - never again.
#2> Cost - the Vue was several thousand less than the Toyota and the Ford.
#3> Space - the Vue was very spacious inside and had plenty of room for my two road bikes.
#4> I love to drive. 90 miles each day to and from work. 30000+ for the year and the Vue offers a smooth drive.
In addition, the 2008 epa estimate for the Hybrid Vue is 26mpg but I have a documented 31.44mpg lifetime average or in other words I get 120.9% of epa estimates. There are few owners of any Hybrid (two stage or Saturn's BAS system Hybrid) that can state they get 120% of epa estimates. :cool:
Check out my results at:
http://www.greenhybrid.com/compare/mileage/saturn-vue.html
While the Saturn Vue is not a two stage Hybrid - it is still a Hybrid that deserves the attention of the automotive industry and potential buyers. :D
Sorry but GM and specifically Saturn lost my support through their treatment of the EV1 and we, their customers.
The EV1 was, to me, the perfect commuter car. It produced zero local emissions, never went to the gas station, required nearly zero routine maintenance (only tires and wiper blades), got effectively well over 120 mpg, beat Mustangs, Miata's, and SLK's out at the light (caaused Porche drivers to worry as well).
GM and Saturn chose to suppress this great technology, marginalize and punish those of us who disregarded their attempts to NOT sell this car and actually had the audacity to sign leases for it. Of course, we all subsequently fall in love with the cars they didn't want to offer to the public or even acknowledge were possible to produce.
At lease end, they forced us to return the cars, after which, they were crushed (see: [url]http://ev1-club.power.net/archive/031219/jpg/after2.htm)[/url]. Some leasee's who had been particularly vocal against GM demanding the cars be returned were further punished as GM levied damage charges for scratches on curb spoilers, some over $1000, even though the cars were destined to be destroyed. See the movie "Who Killed the Electric Car" for another view of the story that GM suppressed in the newspapers.
Now, when GM (Saturn) choses to again pay lip service to doing something a little bit better than the rest of the old crap they've been selling for years such as their pathetic Greenline hybrids, I see no reason to reward them for their inaction. These cars simply prove that GM has no concern for the future.
I understand your reasons for going with the Saturn
#1 - Saturn Brand: I, too had a '95 Saturn SL1. As and ICE car, it was great. Unfortunately, that was a different Saturn. That Saturn was a joint venture between GM and the UAW. It produced a great car but threatened the GM status quo. After intentional neglect to prove it, too, was a failure, it was destroyed and Saturn, today, is just another GM junk brand.
#2 Cost: I think you mean Price. The only reason it costs less is because no one wants it. The Toyota, Ford, and Honda hybrids are quite desireable, hence, the dealers have trouble keeping them in stock. Supply and Demand makes the price high.
#3 Space: the Vue is ok. but isn't any better than the HCH or FEH and not too much better than the Prius.
#4 Drive: It doesn't drive particularly better than any of the other hybrids on the market and you put a lot more gas in them.
Enjoy your Vue but it's still the WORST hybrid on the market. I won't badmouth the rest but GM's total disregard for doing anything right wins them a special place in my heart.
Didn't GM pull the Saturn Vue Green Line recently? Maybe I am mistaken, but I thought I read something about that somewhere.
"Let's have a math lesson. 6mpg improvement on a 21mpg Aura is a 28.5% increase in fuel effciency."
Thanks for that math lesson. Now let's have a reality check.
The Aura green line uses a 2.4L 4-cylinder engine w/electric assist, while the regular Aura uses a 3.5L 6-cylinder engine. OF COURSE the 4-cyl. gets better mpg than the V6!
The 4-cyl has 33% less volume, yet only gets 28% better mpg even WITH a hybrid electric assist? This has to be some kind of engineering joke to see if they can fool anyone into paying thousands more for a 4-cyl. hybrid that "miraculously" gets better mpg than a V6. You could get an extra 6 mpg from the V6 Aura just by driving it efficiently.
This is why Honda recently announced that it will scrap the Accord Hybrid. The company mated the hybrid system with a V6, which got the same mpg as the 4-cyl. Accord. To no one's surprise (except apparently Honda's), customers interested in fuel efficiency chose the $25,000 4-cyl Accord over the $31,000 V6 hybrid.
Go figure.
People WILL pay extra for efficiency, but only if they actually GET efficiency -- not B.S. marketing campaigns that try to compare 4-cylinder apples to V6 oranges.
I recently paid $3,100 extra for a Civic Hybrid vs. a gas-only Civic. But with the hybrid, I got a $2,100 tax credit, plus this:
http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35508
That's mixed city/hwy driving, with full use of A/C in the Texas heat, and 65 mph cruise on the highway.
Now THAT'S efficiency! And all for the same $22,000 price as the Saturn Aura.
Um... because they are. Maybe they're not YOUR ideal of a hybrid, but they meet the market's current definition of a hybrid. Besides, Honda's hybrids were just like this until the redesigned Civic came out - they couldn't run on Electric alone. It's called Electric Assist. Sometimes refered to as Mild Hybrids. But nobody questioned the hybridness of Honda's vehicles now did they?? Nooooo... because they're made by Honda, but if GM makes the same thing, it's crap.
I am so glad everyone has their own strong opinions - the Saturn Vue Hybrid - “Worst Hybrid” on the market. Well then I guess that makes me the best driver in America of the “worst hybrid”. In the mean time, my last tank just got 36.14mpg over a 505.5 mile span. That is better gas mileage than most of the Ford Escape, Mercury Mariner and Toyota Highlander Hybrids on the road. I am sure any SUV driver would jump at that number. As for the worst hybrid – I would give that to the Lexis LS600h at a retail price of $104,750. (The main reasons – the cost and that the Toyota's hybrid Synergy drive is configured more for propelling the big sedan quickly than it is for fuel efficiency.)
To put the entire blame on GM for the shelving of the EV1’s does not tell the whole story. Responsibility should also go to the Big Oil, Big Business and Big Government that all contributed to the demise of the EV1’s and most importantly “timing”. The American public was not ready for them. To think that 500 die hard EV supporters speak for America is not true. In addition, one happy Saturn Vue Hybrid owner can not speak for the masses, just for myself.
My two cents worth.
EV1 owners may may not "speak for America," but they did offer to BUY the electric vehicles. GM flatly said no, then seized and destroyed all the cars.
GM had several hundred people willing to PAY MONEY to buy the cars they had already spent years leasing. GM instead PAID MONEY to haul away all the cars and PAID MORE MONEY to destroy them.
When a car company bucks the basic concept of profit vs. loss, anyone can see that something's wrong.
First and most important, Thanks for your two cents (you have good points) and thanks greatly for making a successful effort to maximize MPG. 1stpik also has good points, if strongly stated. I like the exchange and see a very close similarity to the introduction of emmission controls in the 1970s. With initial pollution standards, the Japanese committed to higher backpressure engines (except Honda committed to CVCC engines) while Ford and GM committed to backfitting existing engine designs. As a result Japanese cars were seen as higher quality (less engine problems) while most backyard mechanics figured out you could restore American car performance by getting rid of that emmission stuff, especially that catalytic converter (allowing the engine to operate as designed). Eventually all manufacturers had to move to fuel injection and new engine designs to meet present pollution requirements. So in the end everyone benefits from the pollution reduction, but GM/Ford/Crysler lost ground following instead of leading.
Strangely, the hybrid situation looks identical. GM is committing to designs that are good for improvements in MPG, but with designs that look like they are backfits to an established infrastructure. Meanwhile Toyota is making some missteps (100% correct about the Lexus) but is forcing the rest of the car industry to follow the "real hybrid" path. GM is feeling the sting of the EV1. Every GM bigwig gets reminded of this incessantly...as they should. Your purchase of a Hybrid Vue has sent a message that counts. So GM does something smart, and proposes the Volt. But now the pressure is on. Will they follow through.....or......repeat history. I want them to succeed.
All of us will have to buy a vehicle after our present hybrids. Let's hope we have a good selection of great MPG or MPkWh vehicles from multiple manufacturers.
I guess time will tell for sure whether the Volt actually happens. But signs are good. Check this out...
http://www.thecarconnection.com/Auto_News/Green_Car_News/GM_Signs_Two_to_Build_Volt_Batteries.S196.A12432.html
They also hired dealers to sell the EV1. So believe it when you see it in a showroom with a price tag on it.
Just bought a 2007 Civic Hybrid, and I'll NEVER buy another hybrid car!
That's right, I'm keeping the HCH until I'm able to purchase an ALL ELECTRIC car. (Scared you guys, didn't I?)
I'm halfway through my fifth tank of gas since purchase, and it's going to be my first 50 mpg tank. But in 5-6 years, I want to laugh at the INEFFICIENCY of the Civic Hybrid the way that I laugh at the inefficiency of my previous SUV (a 24 mpg Honda Element). I want to chuckle at the fact that I used to burn fossil fuels to get from place to place.
I seriously doubt this car will have a GM badge, but whatever. I'm holding out for the holy grail of personal transport.
You seek the grail?? You silly English types. I've already got one... it is very nice.
Well, if you don't like the Saturn Aura Greenline, perhaps you'll be interested in a Diesel Aura instead. Looks like GM will start selling one in 2010, as indicated in this article:
http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070716/FREE/70716007/1528/newsletter01
Pretty cool if you ask me. I wonder if they sell the Greenline and the Diesel models simultaneously, like VW is planning with the Jetta hybrid & TDI models, or replace the hybrid with the diesel, like Honda is doing with the Accord...
y cant we support vehicles that runs on electricity alone..i noticed that it is being studied nowadays in the philippines..electric power car and is enhance with Neuspeed Performance Parts..:o
You need to take into account how most Americans drive to determine what cars are real hybrids. Most Americans do most of their driving commuting in their cars alone. A vehicle that does not get as good gas mileage as a common commuter car should not be considered a real hybrid, because it is not contributing to reducing America's fuel consumption. Common commuter cars are the Chevy Cobalt at 22/32/26, the Malibu at 22/30/25, the Chrysler Sebring at 21/30/24 and the Ford Focus at 23/31/26. The Saturn Aura Greenline at 24/32/27 is a real hybrid because it is part of the solution, not part of the problem. The Saturn Vue Greenline at 23/29/26, the Chevy Silverado at 16/19/17, the Toyota Highlander/Lexus RX at 28/25/26, and the Lexus GS 450h at 22/ 25/ 23 are the fake hybrids. They are false environmentalist statements and have no business traveling in the HOV lane without passengers. They are part of the problem. Almost all of the people who buy them would consume less fuel if they bought one of the commuter cars above and a ten year old minivan, SUV or pickup for those rare trips when they have more than 5 passengers or loads over 1000 Lb. Please note that all of the fake hybrids are made by GM and Toyota, so if you criticize one you should criticize the other. I would consider buying an Aura Greenline because it is the only hybrid car in its price range with electronic stability control, something the Japanese charge you 25K or more to get. The Accord did not sell well because most people do not want to pay 31K for an economical commuter car. At 22-23K the Aura Greenline is in line with other commuter cars. I hope that when the Mercury Milan and Ford Fusion come out they will have electronic stability control, a price as low as the Saturn and better fuel economy.
Then in that case I love my "fake" hybrid. I went from a 1995 Saturn SC2 that averaged 33.5 mpg to a "fake" 2007 Saturn Vue Hybrid that averages 31.5 mpg and has enough room to hold our road bikes when we travel. 2 mpg less with much more space - a trade off that I will take anyday.
I wonder if dfschim averages better than 31.5 mpg? The vast majority of Americans don't.
I drive a Ford Focus and average 32 mpg on road trips. According to the new 2008 MPG calculations a 2002 Focus gets 23/29/25 and a 1995 SC2 gets 21/31/25, essentially the same. What is different is that all of the cars I mentioned are significantly larger than an SC2. The SC2 has 37.5 inches of headroom, 77 cubic feet of interior area and 11 cubic feet of trunk space. The Cobalt has 38.7, 87, 13.9, the Malibu has 39.4, 97.7, 14.9, the Sebring has 40.1, 100.9, 13, the Focus has 39.1, 94, 17.6, and the Vue has 40.6, 100.3 , 30.8. All of the cars I mentioned except the Cobalt can tow a trailer, and have essentially the same interior room as the Vue except for the trunk space. My Focus hatchback can easily fit two road bicycles in the back with the seat down. All of the cars I mentioned could fit the bikes on a roof rack, and all but the Cobalt could pull them on a very lightweight trailer. I am perfectly fine with people who actually use the extra capabilities of an SUV; carrying two adults, four children and towing a boat would be a good example of this. My point was that most people who drive around in them do so alone with their trunks empty for all but a few days a year. They would be better served and save fuel and money by driving an efficient compact or mid-size car and renting a truck for a few days a year than having a hybrid SUV.
I have driven many Prius including my freinds.
I dont care for the car. Its very deceptive and causing major problems for the USA. I real leaders were GM with the EV1 and older electric cars. The evil people are the oil companies... Chevron who made Gm sell the batteries technology to them. Chevron has a stipulation that you have to power a Nickel Metal with gas ie hybrid....
I looked up the Detroit Electric in 1918 got 40 miles on a charge and never used a drop of fuel..
Now that was advanced.
My opinion is the Prius is a big Fad and people who buy it are not reading the true story. Most of the Prius owners have large homes that waste tons of electricity and heating fuel. ( But they can look Green) They waste money and causing more air smog by causing new cars to be built. Plus all the money in one of these goes straight to a foreign country. Only 1/8 of the money in this car goes back to the USA. Where when you buy an American car no matter where its built 85% of the money goes back into the USA.
I looked up the first electric car was the Detroit Electric in 1918 got 40 miles on a charge and used no gas at all.
Hybrids come from technologies that are not established. IE. Hybrid TV sets of the 1960s Transistor/Tube. Now its all Transistors or IC's. The only car you will see in 20 years is all EV you wont see any hybrids because they will be in-efficient.
First of all Prius is Very frumpy
Second you can get better millage on many cars close on some SUVs like the Ford escape.
IN Washington DC I see all the Prius owners ride around in the 100 degree heat with the windows open because when the AC is running the car has to be on Engine Only mode no EV. So you get like 30 MPG ... Funny how the famous car fails when you have heat.
The correct figures on Prius are like 40 City.
I have friends who own them and they get about that.
Toyota famous lies is what I cant stand. There cars are not safe in fact I read where the new Tundra failed the crash tests. This company just cares about profits and draining the American dollar to make Japan richer oh and I love the ads " Made in America" what they dont tell you is all the money and profits dont go back into this country. Infact I read some research you would have to buy 4 toyotas to equal what one GM or Ford puts back into our country.
Its nasty when people sell out to there own country to just be " IN Style"
Geisman,
I saw your exact same response to the front page story. We get it....you don't like hybrids.
next year, pay attention to 'two mode' hybrid. that is real hybrid of GM. big SUV like Taheo will adopt those technology.
(Disclosure: I work for Saturn communications)
We briefingly stopped production of the Vue Green Line as we move to an all-new 2008 model. The new Vue hybrid begins production in October.
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