Steam-electric hybrid auto

I have been thinking quite a bit in the last couple of years on steam power. I have also considered in some detail the steam electric hybrid car. In fact, when I first considered the idea of a modern steam car, the most practical approach that surfaced in my mind was the steam electric parallel hybrid.

I actually have formal training in steam thermodynamics. I have a perspective on steam power that most people don't have. I recognize that all current methods used to power automobiles have inherent limitations that steam power does not have. The main problem with steam is that nobody has been willing to put in the research and the dollars toward it to fully develop its potential. However, there is one company that has developed a very promising steam engine. Even in its infancy it is demostrating efficiencies approaching the Diesel engine at greater than 30%. There is no oil lubrication of the cylinders... water condensation of the steam within the cylinders provides the lubrication. POWER TO WEIGHT is more than twice that of standard gasoline fueled automotive engines. With this technology, the hybrid approach is totally unnecessary, and would be counterproductive. However, if I were to personally attempt to construct a steam car with the performance of an average car on the road today, then I would go with the hybrid approach.

http://www.cyclonepower.com/

I can't imagine with the advances in technology that some one has not imagined or contrived a hybrid steam/electric vehicle. The idea of the whole thing is to eliminate dependance upon the gasoline pump at the high priced, greedy monopolistic fuel sellers.
(Arabs for one.)

I have been wanting to do this for a very long time ( about 2 years)

I am a computer engineer and always wanted to drive a steam car such as a stanley steamer.

I do not know where to start really, but would definitely love to build/drive one!

Let's get back to the Cyclone Engine. This engine does not need to idle so there is really no reason for the Hybrid way of thinking. There is no reason to carry all those heavy batteries around all the time. The pistons do not move while at a stop light the fuel is released intermitently just to keep the combustion chamber at the right temperature. Plus, with the torque being so high at low RPM you can gun the engine right from the start. External combustion engines are great off the line and the Cyclone is supposed to start up very fast, I read that it takes 15 seconds from cold start to working temp and that is not bad. All and all from what I know the Cyclone might be the answer to many of our problems.

The antispam questions.. Does this mean Ive just summoned a demon or something?

P.S. The rationale would be greater range than a traditional electric motor without the mess of any combustion.

High pressure superheated steam is even used by the refineries to "crack" the hydrocarbons into various gases and oils. Steam can be used efficiently if combined with other things.

Water4Gas - Save Money Using Water!

Unfortunately, you're misinformed about electric motors. Try googling electric motor efficiency and you'll find many confirmations. Here's a link to but one: http://www.ceere.org/iac/assessment%20tool/ARC2410.html. Note that this 90% efficiency number is for the motor only. The battery is about 90% efficient in charging and discharging as well so the total efficiency of a battery-electric vehicle is 90% * 90% *90% or 73% Add 90% efficiency to the power grid delivering the electricity and you get 65% efficiency.
Take your ICE which gets only about 25% efficiency (your number is 5 - 10% optimistic but I'll use it anyway) with maybe 85% transportation and delivery losses and you're at 22% efficiency.
This is why the electric drivetrain is so good.
If you don't believe me about the efficiency, lets look at an appliance that is available in electric or gasoline versions such as a weed wacker, a lawn mower, or a leaf blower. I challenge you to touch most parts of the IC motor driving any of these without burning yourself. You can easily touch nearly any part of the electric appliance.

Taganan said:
External Combustion of fuel with forced-air draft produces less pollution and what is produced is more easily controlled.

Fact checker says:
The only emission from a properly built and maintained Steam Generator is CO2. CO2 is not pollution its a natural part of our atmosphere. Only those that actually believe Al Gore call it a pollution.

Taganan said:
The engine best suited to EC is the steam engine, but as direct power to the wheels it has drawbacks, 1. a wait of at least 30 seconds before the car can move, 2. you can't "gun it" and 3. the water can freeze.

Fact checker says:
I agree with you on your starting point, but after that your argument goes off into la la land.

1. So just how fast is your garage door opener? Mine takes at least 30 seconds to open.

2. What do you base that one; The Doble? A Three Ton Car, with one gear, and a 0-60 of about 8 seconds, and a top speed of 95 (120 mph on modern roads). Steam engines have about a 1 to 5 horse power to torque ratio. A 200 HP steam engine has about 1050 lb. ft of torque.
All you would need to move a modern car with a steam power cycle is about 20-40 horse power. Thats about 100-200 lb. ft. of torque, the Chevy Malibu with a 2.4 I4 only has 160 peak torque and you have to wait until 4500 rpms to get that. A steam engine will have its full torque from 0 on up.
The doble steam car made in the 1930's had well over 1000 ft-lb of torque, didn't have a transmission nor a clutch to bother with, weighed 3 tons and got 24 miles per gallon (Name any other 6000+ lbs car that gets 24 mpg?). It also had a top speed of 95 (120 on modern roads), accelerated from 0-60 in about 8 seconds (name any other 3 ton road vehicle that goes 0-60 in 8 seconds).

3. Yes water does freeze, but why is it lower than 32* in your garage? It wouldn't be that hard to have a computer controlled system that would bleed some of the 800* F steam through the pipes every now and then while the car was parked in the lot to keep the thing from freezing up. And if built right the system would be small and close together to save on heat loss.

Taganan said:
The computer would automatically start the steam engine/alternator to maintain battery charge and stop it when at proper charge. When parked in a parking lot in freezing weather the heat strips would use electricity and the steam engine would be automatically started to charge the batteries. However if there were an electric outlet available, such as when in your own driveway, the car would have a cord to plug in and save fuel.

Fact checker says:
I agree with you on the electrical outlet when at home or in a parking lot that has one, but as I said before the computer could just send a pulse of steam through the lines while sitting on the lot. Why waste the heat you have already made.

Taganan said:
There is waste heat from the burner exhaust and from the spent steam which can be converted using thermo-electrics into extra electricity to increase the efficiency of the system.

Fact checker says:
uh, you mean like a steam engine hooked up to an alternator?

Taganan said:
I have had contacts with steam-power buffs. They refuse to consider anything but direct steam drive.

Fact checker says:
They have this mentality because the idea of a steam-electric hybrid would be less fuel and energy efficient that a strait steam power cycle.

Taganan said:
Internal combustion people say steam is dangerous, boilers explode and the engines are obsolete.

Fact checker says:
Have you ever heard of the Stanly Steamer. Its the one car you can be boiled alive and burned to death in; AT THE SAME TIME! And they have blown up more than once. However, the Doble system was much more safe as it only had 2 quarts of water in the system as compared to the 25 gallon fire-tube boiler of the Stanly.

Taganan said:
I hope to find someone who will consider this idea, think of improvements and actually build a steam-electric car.

Fact checker says:
If Henry Ford had the same mind set I would be driving a car I has to body my self. Why don't you take a try at it.

Taganan said:
Except for size all the designs for the burners, boilers and engines exist and need only a good machine shop.

Fact checker says:
Speaking as someone that has already built a steam power plant for his farm here in SW Washington, the components are neither large, nor simple to make. However a proper manufacturer could make the parts in mass production that are reliable and safe.

Taganan said:
The other components are already being made and could be bought, even the controls and computer.

Fact checker says:
Only on the electrical end. Every thing for the steam system would have to be custom made.

Taganan said:
The thermo-electrics may also be available.

Fact checker says:
If their are systems that could convert heat directly into electricity you wouldn't need the steam engine. However, such does not exist. All the systems that convert waist heat into electricity are steam (water or otherwise) based.

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My final words

Now that I have craped all over your idea I will say this...

It is just as viable as any other hybrid system out there. It would operate much cleaner and could possibly result in even greater fuel efficiency over ICE based systems.

If you want some one that will give an objective viewpoint, feel free to email me.

90% efficient! MY GOD THE HUMAN HEART IS'T that good. Electric wast more power than you think. Some are mounted in the wheel of a car and claim 50 horse power! A 5 horse ele. motor would have a armature of about 15 inchs! Electric motors are GREAT but not that great. I think a steam ele. would work very well.

240 miles ! at what speed 20 mph? - If what you say is true your EV1 would be everywhere Gas cars would all be in museums; but there not because they do not work. I checked your web address and saw the web page on ele motors at 110 % effiency, It looked like cold fusion to me. My problem is the first and second laws of thermodynamics - look that up. And i looked at the ele motors on my CNC machine at work, a ele DRILL and my weed wacker - they ALL got pretty HOT. PS a soft spot for steam has nothing to do with liking steam cars i just think its a better way to go and i live in ILLINOIS and have seen 50 below 0 temp. how do you heat a all ele car?

Mike,
You're a stubborn one, I gotta admit but I like your skepticism - that's healthy. Don't let yourself get duped by nonesense. Demand to see proof!!
That ~240 miles per charge for the Tesla is alegedly with the EPA combined cycle and their new drivetrain 1.5. I haven't measured it myself since I don't yet have a Roadster.
Did I mention that the Tesla Roadster can accelerate from 0 to 60 in less than 4 seconds as well?
Regarding the EV1, you're 100% right that were they not all taken off the road and crushed (http://ev1-club.power.net/archive/031219/jpg/after2.htm), they probably would have completely disrupted the auto industry. This is, of course only one of the possible reasons they and the entire auto industry killed the Electric cars that they built and released in California in the late '90's. Rent or buy "Who Killed the Electric Car", (http://www.sonyclassics.com/whokilledtheelectriccar/) the documentary that goes over the whole episode.
I did drive the EV1 from LA, CA to Palo Alto, CA back in 2002 with charging stops in Camarillo, Santa Barbara, Santa Maria, San Luis Obispo, and Salinas. You can look on a map to see that San Luis Obispo and Salinas are about 135 miles apart. This means that I must have gotten at least that much range off of a charge.
110% efficiency, is a problem - it can't work. 90%, however can. Yep, your drill or weed wacker does get hot but compare your electric weed wacker with a gas model and tell me which gets hotter.
Heating an electric car certainly can't be done using the waste heat from the engine like an ICE car. The EV1 had a heat pump, Ford made an EV Ranger that actually had a diesel burning heater. You'll have to ask some of the folks who are getting Tesla Roadsters that live in IL about how well their heater handles the load. I don't think any of them will be delivered to IL until early 2009 though.
You're right that steam powered air planes have been tried. So have electric ones. Of course it was an electric one that set the world record for altitude at 96,000 in 2001 and is one of the hottest spyplanes in the US military today (http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS147862+07-Feb-2008+BW200...). That steam plane barely flew.
Actually, one could say that the B52 is a hybrid steam/jet plane since it can use water injection into its jets to augment the thrust on takeoff. They didn't do it too much since it shortened the engine life but steam clearly does have a place in the world.
I'm hoping to pass through Chicago next summer in my Tesla Roadster. Perhaps you'll be able to see it for yourself. In the mean time, I welcome you to surf around the web and look for credible evidence of the greatness of the electric motor.

It's a very utopian idea that has been eloquently discussed here that we can move away from the ICE and transition towards the "electric" car. I've been a fan of Telsa Motors ever since I happened upon them, and I award them serious kudos for their efforts in the face of what I'm afraid I can only say are fairly nefarious political opposition, as well as, some serious hurdles, both financially and technologically.

Truth is likely as hybridman2 says, we'll have to get faster charging and also a lower entry-level cost. Tesla Motors have plans to make that happen, and, yes, there is the Volt on the way. These are great things, and I'm all for using the brown's gas in the ICE-vehicles that currently exist but I also think that we need to keep generating new ideas. It's been discussed that there are ideas for steam-powered vehicles/hybrids, but action is really what's needed.

Having said all that, what about a brown's gas steam vehicle? I'm sure at least some of you have seen the "HHO-powered" car, which I believe still utilizes some ICE technology, correct me if I am wrong. However, the same principles that allow for the HHO welding apparatus could potentially be utilized to create an extremely high temperature very rapidly. Would this create a need for a higher level of boiler reinforcement? I have just given myself a royal headache looking at the issues with specific-heat-related issues with brown's gas, but we used it for heating during the depression and if it couldn't be used for on-demand, variegated heating as in the Doble, couldn't it at the least be used as a near 0% waste source for battery charging in hybrid vehicles with extremely low operating and maintenance costs?

What's your cost for fueling? Distilled water? Maybe some electrolytic catalyst like aluminum, potassium or magnesium? Any thoughts?

I'm a student at the James Madison University Alternative Fuel Vehicle Lab. As a student, this concept has been brought up many times and I am in the process of researching and drawing up a plan to build this type of concept for a project next year. If you would like to bring input and help with the project just shoot me an email.

I can understand a persons need to get to work on time
so how about just running a small engine to power the generator to recharge the batteries and use the heat from the burned gas to heat the water to boiling point
also water cooled engines by-product is heat ,cooled by water
so we turn the heat into hot water,close to steam then heat it the rest of the way with the hot exhaust
when the water is boiling we can shut off the gas engine and use the exhaust {with fuel and igniter } to continue boiling the water
the steam turns the turbine the turbine and the ic motor are both connected to the generator
the generator charges the batteries
we use recumbant breaking {flywheel to generator breaking}
take the steam and condense it back to water to be recycled
alcohol is our fuel and when the car is at rest the roof can provide
solar battery maintanance
a tri powerd hybred

We think we have the answer, at least we are trying to provide a practical power source that produces electric, steam, and convensional power for vehicles of any kind. We have patented an invention that needs more funding for development and production. But we are convinced of the importance of this improvement to efficiency and environmental concerns. It can run on any fuel and is small and solves many problems that have limited the use of steam power in recent years.

Please help generate interest and visibility of this invention, visit http://www.realworldio.com and http://www.youtube.com/user/jedareed

Thank you.

I stumbled across this site in hopes of determining what was out there for a different type of hybrid... I like the ideas presented and would like to embark on a hybrid of all hybrids concept car... The idea I have would be an internal combustion engine cupeled to a steam powered engine, an internal combustion engine has a ridiculous amount of waste heat, why couldn't you pipe the IC engine exhaust through a boiler system and try to utilize the heat to create steam. I believe that the extra weight would not be an issue.

Option A- put a gear ratio with clutch between the Internal combustion engine and the steam powered engine, as the IC engine comes to proper exhaust temperature then the steam powered engine would start to roll over, clutch separating the two would release and assist the IC engine. I know that the output vs input on steam powered side could be formulated for proper gear ratio ;therefore, as the IC engine excels increased exhaust heat would be exerted and increased steam would follow. As the steam powered engine assists the IC engine the computer just like any in todays automobiles would regulate the air/fuel mixture in the combustion chambers. This design would still need a transmission and rear-end.

Option B
The internal combustion engine exhaust would be piped through the steam powered boilers. They are not attached but both run to separate generators both with means of supplying to the electric system similar to conventional hybrids of today with the addition of only the steam side. This method of course using the motors in wheels to propel automobile.

What do you think?

You make a lot of sense about steam and using that with a hybrid electric system . As a mater of investigation , how would a flywheel go in maintaing engine heat .Not the initial heating but heat maintained by friction . The flywheel run by solar panels or even exersice being connected to a rod that would move in and out , within the boiler at so many intervals of the flywheel revs . Could this be integrated into what you have already demonstrated ?

I've been thinking along these same lines. It a shame that the "Steamies" won't consider anything but direct steam drive... A steam-piston engine will provide a lot of torque, but not enough "get-up-and-go" and a steam turbine is just the opposite: too much speed, not enough torque. An electric engine can deliver both.

This is a technological dead-end IMO and should not be pursued by general industry. The reason is that it doesn't address the 2 biggest problems with our current transportation infrastructure:

1.) Being highly specialized and non-extensible--it is not future compatible. Even though there have been rapid developments in alternative energy sources, our road vehicles cannot make use of them. And if a new energy source were discovered tomorrow, it too would be of no benefit to our transportation infrastructure.

Likewise, if you had a fleet of EC steam vehicles, you would still be essentially limited to the use of combustible fuels. They provide no easy way of switching to new fuel sources or even using the majority of existing clean/renewable power sources. It's also questionable whether a cheap system could be designed to effectively use all of the combustible fuels listed.

2.) Distributed power generation is enormously inefficient. Having a handful of large, centralized power plants is far more desirable than having millions of tiny power plants. Not only can you generate power more efficiently with large steam turbines, but it can also be much cleaner. Cars do have catalytic converters, but portability & cost requirements limit the amount of technology that can be used. With centralized power plants, that is not an issue. It is also cheaper to install multimillion-dollar chemical scrubbers on a couple of smoke stacks rather than millions of individual tailpipes. Furthermore, using centralized power plants also makes it easier to implement new technologies and power sources, again, by virtue of having to modify/replace only a handful of power plants rather than many millions.

Having millions of tiny steam turbines on the road is, not only very dangerous (turbines need to spin at very high speeds to be efficient; a single broken turbine blade could be disastrous), it is neither economical nor an efficient way of generating power.

Really, the only viable way have both extensibility and efficiency is to deploy plug-in electric vehicles (or gas-electric hybrids to ease the transition). An electricity-based transportation infrastructure w/ centralized power generation is essentially future-proof and will be able to immediately benefit from any technological advances or instantly adapt to new power sources.

It also creates a separation of concerns. Car designers can focus solely on building good transportation vehicles rather than a transportation vehicle + mobile power plant. And power plant designers can focus on building clean and efficient steam turbines without being limited by size, public safety, or other vehicle concerns.

i think a hybrid steam engine is a great idea id invest 5 grand and the man hours to make it

I have read almost all responses, and my idea of designing and building a steam electric car is a smart idea. I could just build a steam car. I have several possible engines for it, however the largest of them weighs about 700lbs. You can get a four cylinder steam with adequate horse into your car and use it as a generator. An all electric is not practical at this time because there isn't enough recharging stations available. I'm in the middle of desert and I'm not willing to walk fifty miles looking for a new battery. The electric motor is a good bet except it lacks an adequate charging system to give a long enough range to make trips. I've read that when you drive an electric you don't allow the battery charge to run down that much because it ruins it's life, so charging it early is mandatory. So a steam engine will charge the batteries without many harmful hydrocarbons. It's a good debate.
For some who fear the steam engine, a double designed boiler has never exploded in history.

I meant Doble not double.

What you are describing is an electric monotube boiler ...another name for a tank less water heater
thought most water heaters don't run at steam engine pressures safely. If for some reason you did build or buy one ....you would need a steamtrap .Sort of a water filter to "dry" your steam so carry of water slugs in the steam. Does not break your engine by hydra locking the engine with something that does not compress.Or erosion of blades if your are using a turbine.

This is a great idea. Steam power is good for the environment too.

hello all, just found this page and thought I'd chime in, I'm working on a totaly new type of turbine that will be just the thing for this setup, it looks like it will surpass anything currently available in efficiency and durability, wet steam is no problem and will use a fraction of the volume that most use today. It is the first ever bladed impulse-boundry layer hybrid turbine. It is not just another version of a tesla turbine, this is a totaly different aproach and incorporates all the best aspects of each design and does away with allmost all of there drawbacks. Patent has been filed second prototype shows promise, doing computer simulation this week to get estimate on efficiency capibilities and fine tune design perameters before next prototype is built. hope to have web page soon. If anyone is intrested I'll post test results next week. well gotta go. keep the good ideas comin'.

If there is anyone out there with an effecient steam engine that is reliable, durable and ready for use contact me and I will put your device to use. My approach and application is not for powering cars but the torque produced from your engine will make you money. Don't hesitate, if you have something that works, the time is now...contact me

Frank
(602) 472-5925
Frankprivacy@aol.com

When the forced draft was mentioned, I thought right away of forced draft furnaces that were developed decades ago. A thermostat would, when the fire would run low, trigger an electric motor (or in this case, tap a little steam from the line) which would turn a worm gear, delivering pea coal (Yes! A SOLID, not a LIQUID fuel!) to the firebox. This means even cheap wood pellets could power our cars! And...in the event of a collision, the only hazard would be the pressurized steam...