starter clutch issue

Replacing the CVT fluid is not enough. This issue is pretty common with Gen 1 HCH's. They have to perform an H-ATF flush and they *may* also have to perform a CVT "burnish".

I would recommend you visit another dealership if they do not like to research Honda's own service bulletins.

KB Ref# 11560 [Title: CVT SHUDDER @ACCEL R&D PROCEDURE (R&R FLUID, BURNISH)]

Cheers;

MSantos

The procedure involves the replacement of the ATF fluid, empty and refill again. The H-ATF fluid is a transmission fluid formulated by Honda specifically for your CVT. Honda engineering advises against the use of any other fluid.

The procedure should be done by the dealership as per the service checklist and may involve other tasks as identified by the HDS results. Your CVT software may also need an update depending on the circumstances (typically not required for most cases).

The longer you wait, the greater the damage. Sorry. In some cases, the whole CVT transmission had to be replaced, which is not a nice thing at all.

Cheers;

MSantos

leash529:

The recalls are issued on the basis of the production batches that are marked "suspect". If your VIN falls outside such a batch then you will not receive any notification. However, this does not mean that your car will not develop similar symptoms, it is just that Honda Engineering does not have enough "significant statistical" information indicating that your car is in a high risk group.

In any case, kindly keep the pressure on the dealer and ask the dealer to escalate the issue. When this happens Honda engineering gets involved and the problems often get resolved more expeditiously.

Good luck;

MSantos

After I posted the question, I did receive a "warranty extension" notice from Honda saying that the problem would be fixed and the cost would be covered. Hopefully you got a notice too, fchristian44! The parts are on backorder right now...

My 2003 HCH developed this problem in late 2009 at about 68,000 miles. It seems to only happen upon acceleration at very slow speed.

There are two service bulletins about this shuddering; both have apparently expired as far as free fixes are concerned. Service bulletin #07-049 says to burnish starter clutch, and #07-050 addresses "jutter" and slippage.

I never received any info about this problem from Honda. The Corpus Christi, Tx dealership where I bought the HCH did all the maintenance until I moved to Houston last September, and they never mentioned anything about this issue.

In my new Houston dealer told me about the two service bulletins. The first recommendation is to burnish the plate (?) in the starter, which I think means to grind it smooth; they did this for free. This didn't help much; they put me touch with Honda Customer Service who would do nothing about fixing the problem - the car was out of the warranty assistance period. So the Houston dealer offered to replace the starter as per the second recommended fix for $1000. I contacted my Corpus dealer who agreed to replace the starter for $750 based on my past relationship with having them do all the maintenance. The Jan 2010 repair ticket says "excessive wear of start clutch 218511ABC-5JD00 6.80 diagnose and remove transmission, disassemble transmission, replace start clutch assembly, flush A/T cooler with Honda G-TEC flush machine, top off transmission fluid, calibrate start clutch, perform 3 start clutch burnishings, test drove vehicle, no shutter was felt upon take off."

The new starter clutch worked fine for about five months, but the problem returned this past week and is actually worse than before. Tomorrow (June 22, 2010) I'll contact the Corpus dealer to see if their work is under warranty; otherwise, I'll go back to the Houston dealer.

I had my 2004 burnished last year after shudder developed at 110k. My dealer told me nothing about any service bulletins and I paid about $395 for burnishing. Now at 126K it's starting to come back again.

M Santos - since you are obviously the most expert on this post I have two questions:

1. Should the dealer have notified me about the bulletins when they did burnishing?

2. Can burnishing be done more than one time and be effective?

I love the car and will not be putting anywhere near the miles on it for the next few years as I did in the past. Getting it burnished once a year for $395 is better than $395 a month to buy a new car.

I just called the number CJB listed above. My vehicle is within the 7 years, but I have 140,000 miles on it - well outisde the 105,000 limit on the warranty extension. I was told that, despite having this fixed once in 2008, they wouldn't address my issue. I was then given the corporate address for American Honda Motors and told that I could send a letter to them, but that wouldnt' probably help either. I am so frustrated. Some people (me) don't consider their vehicles disposable and now I my vehicle is stuck with a potentially-degrading condition due to a manfuacturer's defect.

I am so upset with the way Honda has treated me. I bought my 1st car, the 2004 Honda Civic Hybrid. I took my car into the 1st Honda dealership and had repairs done on a regular basis. At 62,000 miles I noticed it start to judder and mentioned it to the mechanic and he checked it out and noted it on the service form which I still have, but said he didn't feel it. So, I ignored it and thought it was just me.

Then, I get the extended service bulletin. And when my car was at about 101,000 miles I took it in in October to have it "fixed" at a different Honda dealership (this being my 2nd dealership). They burnished the clutch and so I thought it was fixed and on my way.

112,000 miles and LESS than 9 months later the judder is back (and of course, now out of the 105,000 mile warranty-convenient for Honda!). So, I took it back to the 2nd dealership thinking they should replace the clutch free of charge because of it being less than a year since they "fixed" it last, but was I wrong! They said it would cost me $1400 to replace the clutch, but they were "willing to work with me" after I called the manager to complain. They brought the price down to $1200. Wow how kind.

I obviously was not happy with that. I called American Honda and placed a complaint. Took my car to another dealership (Yes a 3rd Honda dealership) who was a little bit better, but still not the answer I am looking for. After emailing all my service records from 2004-2010, they were willing to pay $450 and I would have to pay $590 ($360 difference from my first quote...interesting!) which their offer is good for 15 days.

I have to say I am extremely disappointed in Honda's service and I truly am not sure if I will ever buy another Honda. Wondering who I can talk to at Honda and try to get this resolved. Any suggestions??

My wife and I are starting to go through this process with her 2004 HCH - we just had the clutch burnished. Her 7 year extended warranty ends this coming January. Man it's frustrating. Maybe we should trade it in while the car still has some value - there is only 43k miles on it. But I feel like this is rewarding them for not copping to the problem. Normally she would have driven it for at least another couple of years. Hopefully someone here will answer the above question which might help us make a decision.

Can some one post if the stater clutch change is worth the $$ and has it stopped the shudder for more the 10K miles???

Thank you...

Hi all, I own an '04 Honda Civic Hybrid that has the exact same problem. The car vibrates when it accelerates off the line, and it is much worse if the car is facing uphill or there are several people in the car. I only have about 52,000 miles on the car, so I'm not sure of what to do. I feel like after reading about so many other people having this problem, that this is definitely a flaw in the design. Is there anything I can have done to my car under warranty if the title is rebuilt/salvaged? I feel like I gotted ripped when buying this car used, and don't know what to do.

Thanks for the advice CJB. I will try once again to work with the dealer to get them to replace the starter clutch. My wife wants a new car so I am hoping I can get some kind of a concession out of honda for buying a new HCH. I would rather not reward the company for behaving this way but my wife is a loyalist. I honestly don't get it.

my car does the same thing, i hope there is a recall on this. im filing with lemon law if this many people have the same problem. Honda should do something about it.

JARED good news that the dealer took care of you. Keep us posted if the replacement of Starter Clutch worked. I do not want to spend the $$ if the fix is only a temporary 10K miles fix as some others have posted.

Has anyone had success with replacing the starter clutch for more that 10K miles????

I've just moved to Virginia, but my understanding is that all hybrid and alternative fuel vehicles are allowed to use the HOV lanes regardless of the number of passengers. If you switch to a non-hybrid vehicle, you have to be carrying at least two passengers.

Brian please provide dealer in DC area as I am in that area. Thank you.

I too am an owner of an 03 HCH and experiencing the judder problem. It began about a year ago. My check engine light is on, and my IMA light would come on and off for a while, but now is on steadily. I took my car to the Honda dealership I've always taken it to for maintenance and they told me that I need a new catalytic converter (at $1300) and a new hybrid battery (at $2700). They didn't address the judder issue at all. I've got 135k miles on the thing and was hoping that like other non-hybrid hondas, this car would last a good 200k miles. I'm taking it to a second honda dealer on Monday for their opinion. I'm in PA. Wondering if I'm covered under any warranty. Any recommendations from anyone out there?

I'm An owner of a HCH myself And i'm having the same problem

I just wanted to kno the ** burnish ** would that hlep my car stop the shudder & if so for how long ?

THANK

AJ

I've been looking at thir thread with amazement. I also have a Honda CVT in the Jazz (you know it as Fit) Honda have the same deceptive approach in Australia. When the shudder started it was under warranty. They told me it eeded a new type of oil and would be OK. It did it again after it was out of warranty and they had to flush the oil again, and again later. Each time costing hundreds of $$$. Finally it is getting much worse and they say it has done too many miles (km actually) and not their problem. They string you along with empty rhetoric until you're out of warranty and cut you loose. If anyone starts a class action against Honda CVT's there are plenty of frustrated, badly treated and annoyed Honda owners in Australia. This should be worldwide. If they had a shred of decency they would hang their heads in shame. Shame Honda. Shame. Honda's slogan here is "It just works" Rubbish Should be "We just lie"

Same problem. Started at 20k. Work done by original dealer.

First it was not the transmission, just some vague adjustment.

2nd time,then it was a tightening of the transmission, about an hour. But a replacement part was needed and they did not have it in stock.

3rd time another dealer looked at it and replaced half the fluid. Said there was no part to be replaced.

4th time the original dealer tightened it. said the problem is between me and Honda, not their problem.

5th time is where I am at. May have lost count, could be another one that got dealt with when the catalytic converter went out at 40k.

The shudder gets worse with the warm weather, the belts are warm and stretch easier. I have not seen anything posted that the shudder will cause further damage. I just plan to keep on driving and changing the oil and only required repairs.

I have an 03 HCH with 89,000 miles. I bought it used dealer maintained. Is it still under warranty? I have the same issues everyone else has regarding the shudder. but it doesn't get any worse or better. I thought it was the engine just lurking when accelerating slowly. Also since the problem keeps coming back for everyone maybe its normal breakin period for the cvt. I have seen the same vibrations on other non honda cvt's.

I have a '05 HCH with the shuddering issue everyone else is talking about. It started just after 80k miles. My local mechanic (St. Paul, Minnesota) was familiar with this problem and told me to take the car to a Honda dealer to have it addressed. I got the car in today, and they've done something to or replaced the bushings claiming that that's the recall fix (is it really???) and that this would do better than anything else that could be done. I know little about car repair, but since I haven't seen anyone else comment about bushings, I'm guessing this is just another band-aid that won't solve the bigger problem (are they waiting for the warranty period to expire??). Am I right? And what's a bushing anyway?

This is a reply to my own posting of a week or two ago... It turns out the dealer burnished the CVT twice, per the service bulletin protocol. What he meant by replacing the bushings I don't know, but that wasn't what they ended up doing. Actually, I'm glad they burnished twice during the same service request. That way, I don't have to waste more time before a second one is done. It seems the mechanic continued to experience the "judder" after the first burnish, so they went ahead and did a second. So far, I haven't noticed the judder, but I'm prepared for it to return, at which point I believe the service bulletin recommends replacing the start clutch.

My 03 HCH with 130K miles has had the jutter for at least 25K miles now, we bought it used with 95K on it. I didn't notice when it started & the shade tree mechanic thought it was endemic to Honda hybrids, nothing to do about it. The thinking was, it was probly caused by the electronic controls switching power from electric motor to gas power and back 30 times a second. Anyway I'm going to drive it this way til my ship comes in.

Same problem here since I bought the car in 2005 I have had constant transmission problems- Thye even replaced it a year and a half ago at 46,000 miles and now I am having the same issues--- I only have 66,000 miles. I went into Honda after a different mechanic told me I needed a new tranny and told them they had to replace it. They said their mechanics said it just needed a burnish-- AHHHHHHHHHHHHH I calmly explained hey we just did this see here is my time lines. 2 days later the manger of the service department (and why did it take 2 days) finally called and told me it's the hoops they have to jump through, in the meantime what about the customer-
I think we should all ban together and fight this- demand new trannies!!! Any lawyers out there looking to do a civil lawsuit... Just saying is all!

When I went in last week with the juddering problem the supervisor of the dealership told me that they would only burnish the fluids to get rid of the judder until the check engine light came on. I know from my past with this problem is is the transmission. Since your check engine light is on and the car is juddering I would talk with them about the transmission. Good luck!

I have an 05 HCH, same problem, four burnishings, now I'm out of warranty by 2000 miles. Honda has a known problem and pushed everyone outside of the warrnaty coverage by insisting on performing this bad-aid repair of burnishing to avoid perorming the supposed permanent repair. there are a number of us out there aand we need to pursue a class action lawsuit.

I have a 2005 HCH. I also had the startup clutch judder issue. The first time I took it in to the dealer they changed the fluid. The second time I took it to the dealer they did the software update. The third time they replaced the start up clutch which finally seemed to fix it. Fortunately my car was under warranty.

My 2004 Hybrid transmission just died , the start clutch problem that has been talked about. I will say it has 184,000 miles on it but the problem started sometime ago. I was outside the 100k extended warranty and the dealer called Honda, they said sorry. Of course I was never told about the problem, now I find out that it's an engineering flaw. So, the shuddering had been getting worse and the other night while starting from a stop light, bang. Heard a little noise, tach red lined and that was it. Nothing in any gears.

Just an FYI, I hear a lot on this board about "clutch burnishing". Before you pay the dealer $350 to $400 to do it, you should understand exactly what the procedure is. After they change the transmission fluid (which is often a separate charge), burnishing consists of the following:
1) Putting car on lift and getting it up to 40 mph to get the fluids moving in the transmission (call it 5 minutes tops, most of it lifting the car up and dropping the car back down)
2) With engine running, putting both the parking brake and regular brake on, putting the car in "Drive", and flooring the accelerator for 3 seconds. This "burnishes" the clutch by polishing any hard AT fluid varnish that may have formed on the clutch plates.
3) Letting it cool down for a minute or so.
4) Repeat #2 and #3
5) Do it once more except in reverse instead of drive.
6) Take car out on road and "Calibrate the start clutch" by getting it up to 40 mph, turning on the headlights and letting it decelerate down to 20 mph.

That's it. They DO NOT take apart the transmission or physically remove any parts. It is a service that is done entirely in the driver's seat. Not worth >$300 in my opinion.

I strongly suggest if you are having these sorts of issues on your HCH, you should sign up for one of those Factory Service Bulletin services (you can google Factory Service Bulletins, there are multiple choices) for around $25 per year. Chances are, your issue is in there. Many of those services also include full diagnostic codes. This means that the next time your check engine or IMA light comes on, you can go down to your local auto parts store, ask them to "Put the scanner on it" (a free service at many auto parts stores, you can also buy your own scanner at Sears for about $70 or less), and you can know what the problem is before the dealer does.

I once had a dealer try to charge me $400 to fix my rough-running engine on my 2003 HCH, and by doing the above I determined it was the EGR valve. $75 part, two bolts, and I was back in business. To be perfectly honest, I could have probably gotten away with a $2 can of WD40 and cleaned the old one.

Get informed folks, and don't get ripped off!

People have been quoted $1400 for starter clutch, does that include labor or is it just the part itself

We own a 2004 honda civic hybrid,1st asst clutch replaced at 67,000 miles under warranty.2nd clutch replaced with 68,000 miles on it.Now only 15,000 miles on this clutch and same problem.I have been in contact with HONDA and at this point and time not too receptive Going to dealer next week to have them test drive it I believe HONDA has a definate problem with this clutch.I would say defective parts