+ Reply to Thread
Page 47 of 49 FirstFirst ... 37 45 46 47 48 49 LastLast
Results 461 to 470 of 482
  1. #461
    Guest

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    Bjorn,
    I always appreciate your input even if it is sometimes... inflammatory (might not be the right word) towards the hybrid people. Anyway, regarding the diesel-hybrid, you might be right, it might not be cost-effective. Perhaps it could be a primarily electric-driven PZEV, while the diesel engine was designed less for torque. The engine could be for charging the batteries and highway cruising only, while the electric motors were for accelleration and most of the driving. Perhaps it could have cylinder management like the Hondas or Dodge Magnum??? I dunno.

  2. Remove Advertisements
    HybridCars.com
    Advertisements
     

  3. #462
    Guest

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    Russ

    What NMOG ?

  4. #463
    Guest

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    exACCORDhybrid owner, I just enjoy my car immensely and the $$$ I save is a welcome byproduct. No more than that.

  5. #464
    Guest

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    It would be a shame wasting biofuel on a diesel
    guzzler. Like ethanol the biodiesel most likely comes from plant material like soy beans and the
    acerage needed to make a significant amount
    of biodiesel takes away from other crops. There
    are more frugal diesel engines than the one in the
    Liberty diesel w/o sacrificing the output.
    Still wondering about the CR's findings about mpg
    for Civic hybrid versus what being claimed by some
    owners on this site.

  6. #465
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Bjorn View Post
    "Civic hybrid gets 74mpg" ????
    I have Oct 06 issue of CR in front of me and
    it has a list of cars with the highest disparity in
    actual mpg and epa listed mpg. The epa for Honda
    Civic is listed at 48, but actual mpg per CR is 26.
    I know people have different driving techniques,
    but 26 to 74!!!!!!!!. I hope all the owners of car goes
    by how many gls they put in the tank. The read outs on dash are known to be very inaccurate.
    By the way Jeep Liberty diesel has an epa listing
    of 22 and according to CR it gets only 11!!!!!!!!
    So as far as diesels go the Liberty is not a great choice.
    As far as diesel-hybrid drivetrain it will probably
    not save much in mpg since DI diesels gets such
    a great mpg anyhow. The extra cost of hybrid
    system will be even less cost effective than the
    present gas-hybrid.
    The manual trasmission HCH (2003-2005) is more likely to delivery 74 mpg. No joke.

    The newer HCH's ( HCH-2 2006-2007) will reach at most 60 mpg of real world driving. Some people may be able to squeeze a little more. The real world average for most HCH-2 owners is sitting at 47 mpg or so.
    I am personally getting a little over 51mpg. In my previous HCH (CVT 2004) car I got 45mpg yearly average.

    CR (as well as other well known publications) apply driving and testing profiles that are not suited for the primary capabilities and potential of economy hybrid vehicles. Their results are understandable and are hence severly lower than the real world averages.

    Source: MIleage database at www.GreenHybrid.com and www.cleanMPG.com

    Cheers;

    MSantos

  7. #466
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    0
    Every Jetta TDI owner I've talked to says that his car gets 50 MPG on the highway. If you are serious about energy independence, you'll do much better to get a diesel and use a high mix of biodiesel. That will do WAY more good than getting a hybrid.

    As far as cleaner burning, I think it's a toss up.

    The real progress will be when we have true hybrids that;

    1) make better use of dynamic braking,
    2)wider plug in availability,
    3)supplemental solar charging,
    4)heat recovery.
    5)Lighter weight materials.
    6) Above all.....Use clean diesel engines.

    My understanding is that if you remove the extra weight on the Prius for the hybrid components, the mileage would be the same or better. I'm not sure if this is true.

  8. #467
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by gregp1962 View Post
    Every Jetta TDI owner I've talked to says that his car gets 50 MPG on the highway. If you are serious about energy independence, you'll do much better to get a diesel and use a high mix of biodiesel. That will do WAY more good than getting a hybrid.

    As far as cleaner burning, I think it's a toss up.

    The real progress will be when we have true hybrids that;

    1) make better use of dynamic braking,
    2)wider plug in availability,
    3)supplemental solar charging,
    4)heat recovery.
    5)Lighter weight materials.
    6) Above all.....Use clean diesel engines.

    My understanding is that if you remove the extra weight on the Prius for the hybrid components, the mileage would be the same or better. I'm not sure if this is true.
    From our Taxi mileage records, our TDI's have never produced fuel economy figures comparable to those being accumulated by the Prius II vehicles in the fleet. The Prius is a design particularly suited for urban operation. The Civic Hybrid design is better suited for highway driving. Even in highway duty a TDI does not offer the same mileage potential as an 06 Civic Hybrid).

    Please check the www.greenhybrid.com and www.cleanmpg.com databases for references.

    "As far as cleaner burning, I think it's a toss up. "

    Not according to the states where the sale of TDI vehicles is illegal. We can beat this horse all we can, but the facts remain and they will be driving policy towards diesel powertrains. According to potential, Honda will actually show the industry how to properly do a clean Diesel as only they can.

    "My understanding is that if you remove the extra weight on the Prius for the hybrid components, the mileage would be the same or better. I'm not sure if this is true."

    Although incorrect, you are definitely entitled to have that level of understanding. Just for giggles, you would be better off making that statement while focusing on the Civic as it actually has a gas-only as well as a hybrid version of the same body structure.

    Cheers;

    MS

  9. #468
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    0
    MS,

    If you have a fleet that includes both TDIs and various hybrids, you would be in a much better position to provide real world results on mileage. Do you keep meticulous records? That could be valuable information. Relying on EPA estimates or what "my brother in law says" can't be a good way to evaluate.

    Obviously, a Prius will beat just about any other car for mileage in city driving if driven properly. Getting the best mileage is half the battle in both oil independence and clean air issues.

    As for reliance on petroleum, the diesels have them all beat, hands down.

    My contention is that combining clean diesel technology, with more flexible hybrids, we could stop importing any petroleum into this country within a few years....If we really had the initiative to do so.

  10. #469
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by gregp1962 View Post
    Obviously, a Prius will beat just about any other car for mileage in city driving if driven properly.
    That is true for any vehicle. If driven improperly ANY vehicle will have poorer mileage. It just so happens that hybrids can the most sensitive but they also have the highest fuel economy potential. Some of the hybrid fleets are reporting mileages that beat the EPA ratings by 40% or more. No matter how we nurse our TDI's that kind of performance is simply not possible - at least in this world - and particularly in city duty.


    Quote Originally Posted by gregp1962 View Post
    As for reliance on petroleum, the diesels have them all beat, hands down.
    How can that be? Most (if not all) of the Diesel produced and sold today is derived from petroleum.
    This is similar to the ethanol debate where we keep getting hordes of folks claiming they already drive green by having purchased a vehicle capable of running ethanol (80% or better). They claim they are doing their part by not relying on petroleum. However, the vast majority of all flex fuel vehicles currently on the road cannot find a single ethanol refill station and end up consuming regular gas just like other vehicles. In the end they keep polluting more and continue to hasten our dependednce on petroleum anyway.

    There will be Diesel hybrids. But that my friend, is because Honda and Toyota took the logical first step in producing Gas Hybrids first. Obviously and not surprisingly they will also be the first ones to implement and produce high quality Diesel hybrids. After all they have the head start and proven technical ability to do so. If you check the latest Consumer Reports on reliability ratings you'll notice that the most reliable vehicles on the road are Honda hybrids and Toyota hybrids - that and many other "endorsements" for the technology is just the writing on the wall.

    But, I keep getting amazed at people's tendencies to separate Diesel and current gas-hybrids into competing fields instead of focusing on the bigger and inevitable picture: That hybrids are here to stay and even though they represent the best technical solution in today's terms, they are just the first of many steps to follow.

    Cheers;

    MSantos

  11. #470
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    0
    I read through a bit of this debate and find it very interesting and I agree with the last post that the gas-electric hybrid and Diesel are not competing technologies but complementary and evolutionary steps towards improved mileage and continued use of petroleum. Currently for me they provide differing performance and mileage that makes them desirable based on the type driving you do. After experiencing them both I tend to agree withthe CR story too

    My family has a 2005 Civic hybrid bought in May of 2005 and a 2006 Jetta TDI purchased in September 2006. Not so briefly here is my experience.

    I turned my 2005 Civic Hybrid over to my 16 year old daughter earlier this year. I bought with the intention of enjoying it for a year and then giving it to her once she licensed.

    My work assignment temporarily changed and I now work during the week in another city and commute home on the weekend..round trip 440 miles. ( ah but during the week I can walk to the office) Before, when I was driving the Hybrid my commute was mostly country and some city driving of 50 miles round trip.

    I have had the TDI since early September (before that I was making the weekend trip in an my old GMC truck.... yes it slurped it up)

    Here is what I have experienced. (oh and I have had just about only VWs and Hondas all my driving life since 72 - I think both companies do a very nice job)

    Civic.
    On my daily commute it averaged 39 mpg if I kept the speed down to 60 to 65 on the four lane part of the commute. I think I saw 40 -41 as the best when I had the AC off- It is hot and humid much of the year where live. I did get 45 mpg on a 220 mile trip through rural roads and small towns once. I never went over 55 MPH and just wanted to see what I could get if kept the speed down. It was January and no air conditioning was used. On another trip with expressway driving at 70 to 80 mph, mileage went down to around 33 to 34 mpg. It comes back up as expected if you stay around 65 to 70 - say 38 to 40 mpg. When my wife and daughter took over the car their mileage averages 28 to 35. They just get in and drive it like any other car. I used the feedback provided by the instrumentation to stretch the mileage. Fun for me but they do not care or see it as a cool game. They drive 10 to 2 mile trips in the city.

    TDI
    It has more zip and is more agile. Not that the Civic is bad. the Jetta is just better and is really a different type of car. And it will suck up the diesel if you use all of that torgue around town. At expressway speed the Civic is a bit buzzy as speed comes up and the Jetta is quieter and smoother.

    Weekend commute is interstate highway and open four lane. I drive up to 80 mph but mostly stay between 70 and 75 mph. I do have to go through 2 large towns and so I get in traffic and do a little stop and go. Also I do not fill up just before and at the end of the trip. I take what I get including the city driving I may get into at trip end. But I do fill up early - Diesel can be hard or a hassel to find. And the mileage is... 38 to 41 mpg. City only?... I do not know yet as I have not run through a tank on city driving only I suspect it is around 33 -35 if I do not get to aggressive but may be better.

    Conclusion
    No doubt for me when I compare the ride, handling and mileage the 2006 TDI is much better overall on expressway driving between cities than the 2005 civic hybrid. Around town I know I can squeeze out better mileage on the hybrid civic as expected and is the strength of the hybrid technology. And it is a fine car to use in and around town. As for my other family members who just get in and drive it like any old car I think the hybrid is more sensitive to driving style than the TDI and they would likely get very comparable mileage. But this is really just a feeling I have no hard comparable data yet.

    So I am looking forward to sophisticated diesel-electric combination that uses aggressive regenerative breaking, uses the new low emission diesels, has a larger capacity battery that gets the car rolling and a plug for topping off the battery between trips if needed.

    Cheers

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts