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  1. #371
    Guest

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    why is it that the hybrids claim 50-60 mpg and all the true revews from reputible companies are saying that they are only geting 40-45 and the jetta tdi claims 37-42 and all the tests and revews claim 50+. the hybreds have no power if you have a car full of peaple and the tdi can be fully loaded with 5 large peaple and a full trunk and still have plenty of power. is it that the goverment wants you to think of an alternitive power and could it be that we have a better = bigger contract with the japanese than the germans and why is it that there so called hybrids dont get as good of milage as a plain old diesel. maybe vw should make a hybrid and show the world a true car. and no i'm not a german.

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  3. #372
    Guest

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    Read in June issue of Car&Driver today about thr
    hybrid Camry and VW TDI.
    It says the Camry has a listed EPA mpg in town 42,
    but only got 32 on their test.
    TDI EPA is listed at 41, but got 42. I am just quoting what I read. I have been wondering why
    EPA for diesel seem to be underestimated and
    hybrids and gassers are over rated.
    Likewise all the writeups says diesel get typically
    30% better mpg while it actually gets more like
    50 or more.
    Saw something funny. A Prius driver was smoking!!
    Worried about air quality?

  4. #373
    Guest

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    You guys are getting a little ridiculuous with your TDI fanaticism.
    I can't imaging fitting 5 big people into a TDI - be real and it doesn't even have a trunk. The Camry, on the other hand could definitely fit 5 with plenty of trunk space. Let's compare apples with apples.
    I will acknowledge that there do appear to be some optimizations that have been made with the hybrids to score well in EPA tests that probably don't reflect actual use.
    This is similiar to the migration in electronics from digital to analog technology. With digital (or hybrid), one has a lot more control of the optimization parameters, depending on the usage. With analog (or pure ICE), the behavior may be pretty constant independent of usage. Or perhaps the EPA test was carefully designed to flush out ICE issues but not hybrid ones.

  5. #374
    Guest

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    EX EV1 DRIVER

    you dont get it..I was not comparing sizes of the
    cars, but the fact that the EPA mpg for hybrids
    seem to be quite overated and the diesels excellent
    mpg seem to be downplayed..just get hold of the
    magazine and read it yourself...and by the way
    the Jetta is quite roomy especially the trunk

  6. #375
    Guest

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    The new generation Jettas are quite roomy indeed, almost as much as my 2005 Passat. And the trunk is in fact huge, flat and convenient. Of course our Jetta is as station wagon...something not even available with the Camry (and I could have gotten a Passat wagon as well, and I really regret getting the sedan but I figured we already had a wagon).

    I think the reason fuel consumption is always overrated on the TDIs and underrated on the gasoline cars, is because the TDI, at normal highway speeds, is operating right at peak torque (1900-3000 rpm). Therefore modest changes in road conditions affect the TDI much less than the gasoline engine car, which typically is operating at about 2000 rpm less than peak torque.

    You notice it on a long grade: the TDI won't downshift at normal speeds (say 100-130 km/h) whereas high-revving gas cars will. You need to "put your foot into it" more on a gasser than a TDI. I suspect that cars like the VW/Audi 2.0T engine also meet EPA: the turbo allows peak torque to be produced starting at 1900 rpm as well (but the gas engine can carry it all the way up to 5000 rpm).

    The EPA test is done under "ideal" conditions with rollers simulating road loads.

    The other factor is that the EPA tests new cars. Diesels are well known for needing at least 10,000 km for break-in, if not more. On my Passat, fuel consumption improved significantly at 30000 km, by about 0.2 L/100 km on average. Same on our Jetta.

    While a few hybrid drivers here seem to be able to extract phenomal mileage out of their hybrids, the average driver appears to get better results with the TDIs.

  7. #376
    Guest

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    You are right, I don't get it.

    Both Civic Hybrid and TDI get about the same MPG on average.
    My own car is rated 48/47 and people average about that number.
    www.greenhybrid.com

    So what you are saying is that Honda should artifically deflate the EPA to a lower MPG figure?
    Why?
    To boost diesel sales?
    Are automotive MFG's allowed by law to mess with EPA estimates?

  8. #377
    Guest

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    "you" was meant for ex ev-1 driver, but in any case
    the point is that EPA mpg should be somewhere
    close to actual mpg..if car$driver get 32mpg
    in city driving the camry hybrid and the listed
    city EPA is 42mpg then there is something wrong
    The TDI get 1mpg better..
    Even a hard nosed hybrid fan must admit this

  9. #378
    Guest

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    Below is a quote from LATimes

    "These same cynics may argue that the hybrid premium isn't worth the savings in gas. I disagree. In my week of rather lead-footed driving, I got 30.5 miles per gallon in mixed driving outstanding for a big, heavy sedan but certainly nothing like the 40 mpg indicated by the government's soon-to-be-revised fuel economy tests. Even so, in a lifespan of 150,000 miles, a Camry Hybrid owner (driving like me and Don Prudhomme) would save about 1,500 gallons of gas compared to a conventionally powered Camry remember 30% better fuel economy? or about $4,500, assuming $3 per gallon gas, and we should be so lucky. Assuming a "premium" of $3,000, the hybrid option would more than pay for itself, albeit slowly"

    Now 30.5 versus 40mpg would be less than the
    30% better mileage and w/o the public subsidizing
    this hybrid the price cannot be justified.

  10. #379
    Guest

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    According to Edmunds.com the Camry Hybrid
    has a MSRP price of $25900 and the TMV price
    (the average price people pay)is $23310. Thats a
    difference of $2590. This does not reflect a car
    in high demand. Someone wrote that hybrids are
    so popular that the waitinglist is long.

  11. #380
    Guest

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    Bjorn it depends on how long you define a "long waiting list".
    If you suppose 1-2 months isn't long, others might.

    HCH on average gets about the same as the TDI.
    What's your problem with that?
    It's very close to the EPA.

    Do you suppose Honda should have cheated itself and posted 10 less MPG on the sticker? 20 less?
    If so, why?
    Are car MFG's even allowed to mess with set EPA figures?

    Just think of how good TDI would be if EPA rated it at 15MPG.

    Are you saying no TDI owners are unhappy with their mileage? If you are I'd be happy to post a fresh list of unhappy TDI owners about their poor mileage.

    (Sigh)

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