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  1. #361
    Guest

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    Sorry Guys- The fact that all current diesel passenger cars can't pass the standard emissions testing speaks volumes about the air emissions quality issues. And your typical hybrid has a much better profile. IT PASSES THE EMISSIONS TEST. The earth is just not flat no matter how long and detailed posts might be.

    The emissions calculator on this website defines comparisons clearly. Hybrids are much cleaner.

    AS far as cost, the hybrid demographic is partially composed of BMW, Volvo, Acura, etc owners spending a lot less money. This has been studied as well. My relative gas savings is 1500 dollars a year and the maintenance is zero dollars. The car easily pays for itself while supporting American jobs ( 85% American Parts--Toyota and Honda building cars in US).

    Hybrids are a choice of responsibility and conscience.

    Its unclear that 2008 will be any different for diesel cars being sold in the US.

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  3. #362
    Guest

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    In today's La Presse (Montreal newspaper) there's an article about the new Camry hybrid:

    "Dans ces conditions, l’économie de carburant théorique de la Camry hybride s’avère très intéressante: la consommation annoncé du groupe propulseur de 187 chevaux est évaluée à 5,7 litres aux 100 kilomètres, en ville comme sur l’autoroute. En réalité, elle se situe plus près des 8 litres aux 100 km."

    Translated: In ideal conditions, the theoretical fuel economy of the Camry Hybrid is very interesting: the announced consumption of the hybrid propulsion system of 187 hp is 5.7 L/100 km both on the highway and in town (side note: my Passat TDI is rated for the same on the highway, but 8.7 in town). In reality, consumption is closer to 8 L/100 km.

    Well, "in reality", my TDI can beat 5.7 L/100 km on the highway...simply by driving at the speed limit.

    Camry starts at $26k in Canada. The Hybrid is $6k. True it comes better equipped than the base 4. But if economy is your goal, you'd be better off with the base Camry 4-cyl, rated at 6.4 L/100 km on the highway, and still with low emissions.

    What, exactly, is the point???


  4. #363
    Guest

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    Correction, should read the hybrid is $6k more. It's actually $32k.

  5. #364
    Guest

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    "Relative gas saving a year $1500"?
    How many miles do you do a year? 100000miles
    Even then u need our subsidy.
    Honda is planning a diesel for 2008 that will
    pass emissions. MB has the E-class that will pass
    emissions in 50 states. Then we have a question
    if emission standards should be changed ot at least
    looked into. Todays emissions does not take into
    account all the vapor from gasoline from refinery to consumers engine.


  6. #365
    Guest

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    "Sorry Guys- The fact that all current diesel passenger cars can't pass the standard emissions testing speaks volumes about the air emissions quality issues. And your typical hybrid has a much better profile. IT PASSES THE EMISSIONS TEST. The earth is just not flat no matter how long and detailed posts might be.

    The emissions calculator on this website defines comparisons clearly. Hybrids are much cleaner...."


    But what is the goal here? Better air quality, or just meeting some arbitrary emission standards?

    I'm sorry too, but I don't think you can ignore the weekend ozone effect. It presents very convincing empirical evidence that reducing NOx relatively more than VOCs (NMHCs) and/or CO will not help, and may actually make ozone (smog) worse in urban areas where smog is a problem and where most people live. The Tier 2/LEV II regs do exactly that. They require huge cuts in NOx emissions, moderate cuts in VOC emissions (tailpipe), and NO (zero) cuts in CO emissions.

    The reductions seen on weekend are similar to what will occur once the Tier 2/LEV II regs are fully implemented. We could very well have the weekend effect seven days a week soon! They also don't address "hidden" evaporative emissions which diesel don't have. At the very least, diesel should be given some credit for not having any hidden fugitive emissions.

    I agree with Bjorn. The emission regs need to be looked at again. EPA/CARB need to reconsider their approach to improving air quality.

  7. #366
    Guest

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    Maybe diesels can overcome the cost problem
    of particle filter or Hondas plasma system if they are subsidized with 1/3 of what hybrid owners get.
    But I would think the hybrid owners would find that
    unfair use of tax money.

  8. #367
    Guest

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    "AS far as cost, the hybrid demographic is partially composed of BMW, Volvo, Acura, etc owners spending a lot less money. This has been studied as well."

    This is the funniest excuse to make hybrids look
    like saved money compared to the gasoline version
    or a diesel. Desperate excuses.

  9. #368
    Guest

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    Bjorn:
    "Most buyers believe the high efficiency is due to the car having the hybrid electrical system. This is very deceptive on the part of the manufacturer. The cars are very small and light weight with extremely small gasoline engines. The Honda Insight has a tiny engine with only three cylinders. In reality the Honda Insight would probably get more than 50 mpg city without the hybrid system and would get better mileage on the highway than the same hybrid model"

    You're right, and wrong.
    Honda's hybrid system can be extremely efficient simply for its small engine. Mine is 1.3 Liter and loaded down with further fuel efficient devices.

    They add the electric drive for two reasons:
    1.To bring a dog-slow car up to about the same as your TDI goes 0-60.
    2.To help relieve strain on the small engine in times of heavy load, extending both service life and efficiency.

    I've owned early 70's Pintos, Vegas and Corollas but abandoned them because I always drove with my foot all the way down to the floor.
    You don't have to do that with the HCH.

    One of my Pintos had the 1600cc engine and is more than 18 seconds 0-60.
    Would you buy a 18 second (or more) car?
    I wouldn't.

  10. #369
    Guest

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    This discussion is getting silly isn't it?

    Actually I'm getting tired of all the mpg and tail pipe stuff. Talking to a number of people around who commute and drive about the same as I do ... using my monthly fuel bill with my Prius as a base line. A TDI VW has about the same fuel bill, a Toyota Corolla or Camry is about twice as much, and a pick up varies from 3 to 4 times as much depending on its size.

    I save on gas about what the vehicle cost me extra over a 5 year car loan ... and I have a reliable car that suits my needs ...

    If I would have made it back to Canada before the Chevy Lumina APV became an expensive death trap, I may have not purchased the Prius because the pricing for one here places it at a level I'm not willing to pay for that vehicle. The pricing on the Camry Hybrid in Canada however is enticing. And, diesels aren't being regulated out of existance here like they are in the US, so I would have looked at a TDI ... but VW does not have the same reputation as Toyota for reliability. The closest dealership for either Toyota or VW is 2 hours away ... so choosing a dealer to frustrate you wouldn't be an issue ...

    .... and then there are those newer cars like the Ford Fusion which I could buy in the town I live, however I had made my mind up on an 'alternative' power plant of some kind.

    As it is, I'm happy with the car I have ... and its the only one in town ... I'm not sure if that's a good thing.

  11. #370
    Guest

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    TDI is dying in 2007 in Canada as well due to Canadian emissions regs now being harmonized with the US EPA regs. There's a loophole in the law for diesels but I'm not sure VW will apply it to the TDI.

    Remains to be seen what will happen to the Smart car which is a diesel.

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