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  1. #351

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    Tax deduction link below. Many states exempt
    hybrids for sales tax. Depending the % sales tax
    in that state and the price of the hybrid.
    In most cases sales tax alone is $1500 and up.
    In addition unrestricted use of HOV lane and free
    parking many places. We all know parking lots
    and HOV lanes are paid by taxpayers, but it is
    difficult to pin point a $ value of this "goodie".
    But it is clear the government give the hybrid
    owners thousands in handouts.

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  3. #352

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    Well, the discussion just became a bit more theoretical. The lead article here at hybridcars.com says that only one passenger car diesel will be sold in the US next year, the Mercedes wxman referred to in his earlier post. The remaining cars, including all VWs, cannot meet emissions standards.

    Obviously the hybrids meet the standards that the diesel cars just can't meet.

    That Mercedes looks too expensive for most folks but I have no probem propping it and Mercedes for stepping up and meeting emissions standards and will encourage buyers I know in the 50,000+ range to consider the car.

  4. #353

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    In 2008 the VW diesels will meet the same emissions standards as the Merc.

    Since my TDIs are 2004 and 2005 respectively I think I can survive until 2008.

    Meanwhile, nobody has to feel guilty about buying a 2006 TDI. They will be reducing CO2 emissions significantly, and to say that a 2006 TDI is "dirty" is just plain false.

  5. #354

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    I agree with Mike G on that one. My 2002 TDI is
    good for 400000 miles and I can wait until 2008.
    I know my car contribute very little to greenhouse
    gases which is a major concern right now.
    A referral was made to Consumer Reports.
    They also have an article saying hybrids even
    with subsidies dont pay for themselves.

    Below is a quote from a website

    Hybrid vehicles in general have special tires to reduce rolling resistance. Tires on the Honda Insight are hard as a rock and become dangerous in adverse weather conditions. The car is simply not drivable in winter conditions. The tires slide all over the road. The winter tires show how important rolling resistance is to fuel-efficiency because fuel mileage plunges more than 15 mpg with them.

    2006 Honda Insight - Specifications - The Official Honda Web Site.

    Hybrid car manufacturers are trying to impress buyers with unusually high fuel efficiencies in the range of 60 mpg in city driving. Most buyers believe the high efficiency is due to the car having the hybrid electrical system. This is very deceptive on the part of the manufacturer. The cars are very small and light weight with extremely small gasoline engines. The Honda Insight has a tiny engine with only three cylinders. In reality the Honda Insight would probably get more than 50 mpg city without the hybrid system and would get better mileage on the highway than the same hybrid model.

    Special Reports - The Real Costs of Owning a Hybrid.

    "I just love my Honda Civic Hybrid, but I have been a bit disappointed that the gas mileage isn't better," says Ivey Doyal of Atlanta, Ga.

    Honda has discontinued the hybrid option on the 2006 Accord because the US Federal income tax credit has been reduced.

    The extra cost of the hybrid is not justified by the small extra fuel economy. It was offered in 2005 with a mileage estimate of 29 mpg city and 37 mpg highway versus the Accord without hybrid having an estimate of 21 mpg city and 30 mpg highway. The difference in the mileage estimate for highway driving looks highly suspicious because the hybrid electric generator is inactive in highway driving. The hybrid mileage is obviously exaggerated as stated by some owners. The best hybrid car requires 10 years of ownership in order to recoup the extra initial cost based on fuel savings. Making matters worse the owner is most likely to be faced with a $3000 maintenance charge to replace the batteries. Maintenance work on hybrid cars must be done at the dealer in most cases adding to the expense.

    The hybrid car income tax credit proves the total ineptness of the United States Department of Energy and the US Congress. Essentially they are giving citizens of the US a tax credit if they buy a foreign-made car. The money is passed on to the car manufacturer by the buyer. Is this dumb or what? DUH!

    Toyota Prius Owners Are Still Miffed About Poor Mileage.

    Deborah H. in Louisville, Kentucky is angry. "I feel there was false advertising by Toyota stating there was 50 miles per gallon on the highway and 60 miles per hour in the city driving my Toyota Prius hybrid," she wrote. But Deborah writes that gas mileage results her Prius achieves continue to be disappointing: "After six months of tracking, the best mileage I ever got was 43 miles per gallon. Most often my mileage is between 30 and 36 miles per gallon."

    The enthusiasm for hybrid cars may be waning. In March 2006, sales of the Toyota Prius, the most popular hybrid, fell 23 per cent from a year earlier.

    Hybrid Mileage Comes Up Short

    "Hybrid cars are hot, but not as hot as their owners, who complain that their gas mileage hasn't come close to well-advertised estimates.

    Don't knock the car companies for inflated claims: Experts say the blame lies with the 19-year-old EPA fuel-efficiency test that overstates hybrid performance.

    Pete Blackshaw was so excited about getting a hybrid gasoline-electric car that he had his wife videotape the trip to the Honda dealership to pick up his Civic Hybrid. The enthusiastic owner ordered a customized license plate with "MO MILES" on it, and started a blog about his new hybrid lifestyle.

    But after a few months of commuting to his job in Cincinnati, Blackshaw's hybrid euphoria vanished as his car's odometer revealed that the gas mileage he was hoping for was only a pipe dream. Honda's Civic Hybrid is rated by the EPA to get 47 miles per gallon in the city, and 48 mpg on the highway. After nearly 1,000 miles of mostly city driving, Blackshaw was getting 31.4 mpg. "

    The above report made a serious mistake about the poor mileage of the Honda Civic Hybrid. The report does not blame Honda for the bad results. We can and should place the blame for lies about fuel-efficiency directly on the manufacturer where they belong. Honda posted gas mileage claims on literature and on the window label that were simply false. It also proves that the US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) is a corrupt organization because they devised a fuel-efficiency test for hybrid cars that produces false results.

    The Toyota Prius Hybrid gets the largest US Federal income tax credit for 2006 because of excellent fuel economy based on EPA test even though owners fail to achieve the same results. This high tax credit is expected to make sales soar past the limit set by the new law. The tax credit will be reduced according to sales volume until it is most likely to be zero in 2007. Don't count on the tax credits listed in the following table. They could change. People in the "alternate minimum tax" category are also illegible for the credit.

    Click here to see New and Planned Hybrid Models

    Click here to see US Federal Tax Credit Incentives

    2006 Hybrid Cars & SUVs
    Make and Model
    Estimated 2006 US Income Tax Credit
    EPA Miles Per Gallon
    City / Highway
    Toyota Prius
    60 / 51

    Ford Escape 2wd SUV
    36 / 31

    Toyota Highlander 2wd SUV
    33 / 28

    Honda Insight automatic $2,600
    57 / 56

    Lexus 400 RX 400h 4wd SUV
    31 / 27

    Toyota Highlander 4wd SUV
    31 / 27

    Honda Civic automatic
    49 / 51

    Ford Escape 4wd SUV
    33 / 29

    Mercury Mariner 4wd SUV
    33 / 29

    Honda Civic manual
    49 / 51

    Honda Accord - Discontinued $650

  6. #355

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    More quotes

    The power output of diesel engines has increased significantly. Unlike small, underpowered hybrid cars, diesel cars, SUVs and trucks are extremely powerful. The full size heavy duty pickups are purchased with turbodiesel engines because they out pull identical trucks with gasoline engines. The diesel cars and trucks get at least 50% better mileage than their gasoline engine counterparts.

    The exhaust pollution can be less for a diesel engine than a gasoline engine because diesels do not produce carbon monoxide. The new electronic fuel injection systems produce low levels of soot. Improvements are being made to reduce the sound level produced by the engine, and fuel has become available at most service stations.

    Special Reports - Diesel, Dirty No More.

    Diesel engines typically have a much longer life between major overhauls than do gasoline engines. The diesel fuel is a light oil that provides upper cylinder lubrication which reduces wear. Gasoline creates the opposite effect by washing the engine lubricating oil off the cylinder wall causing increased wear.

    Daimler Chrysler is introducing new V6 and V8 diesel engines in many of its cars and trucks including the Mercedes-Benz and Chrysler 300. Diesel engines are expanding in nearly every vehicle class by many manufacturers.

  7. #356

    Hybrid or Diesel?


    I think you're beating a proverbial dead horse. Most of us agree that Diesels are more efficient and I suspect that with a little more work, we can be convinced that they can be clean enough.
    Those of us who understand hybrids, however, also believe that adding an electric drivetrain to any ICE (especially a diesel) will make it MORE powerful, MORE efficient, LESS polluting, LESS expensive, require LESS maintenence, and last LONGER.

    Again, I'll reiterate, the diesel will gain from this just as well as the gasoline engine.

  8. #357

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    My understanding is that the efficiency gain from a hybrid drivetrain coupled to a diesel engine will be significantly less than the same drivetrain with a gas engine.

    If you add the cost premium of the diesel engine to the cost premium of the electric drivetrain, the efficiency gain would have to be substantial to overcome the costs.

    Meanwhile, most of us can live with a car that consistently delivers 48+ mpg on the highway without any special driving techniques other than avoiding excessive speeding. The extra mileage over a straight gasoline equivalent of the same car more than makes up for the price premium, usually within the first two years for the average driver, and within one year for high-milers like myself.

    When you coupld that to high resale value, you soon see that a diesel is a financial winner (a 3-y.o. Jetta TDI has resale of about $4000 CDN higher than a 2.0L gas model, and about $2000 more than a 3-y.o. 4-cyl, non-hybrid Camry or Accord of the same price range when new; in Canada, hybrid resale is about the same as the equivalent non-hybrid Civic, so the premium paid up front is all but lost).

  9. #358

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    Mike -

    Actually, an Argonne National Laboratory (ANL) study suggests that diesel HEVs get GREATER benefit from hybridization than gas HEVs.

    http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/TA/89.pdf - page 14 of 15 (Conclusions), next-to-last bullet.

  10. #359

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    The reason diesel hybrid benefits less is the fact
    diesels run on the fumes when not under load, idling, slow traffic, down hills etc. The gas/air
    ratio goes down to 1:64 versus 1:14.7 for the
    gas engines used in hybrids. There will be some benefit, but probably not to recover the cost of the
    hybrid train if the saving is only a few mpg.

  11. #360

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    So you "understand" hybrids and the rest of us do
    not? lol...where is your throne?

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