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  1. #321
    Guest

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    For the informed readers we all know the clean diesels are here and more are coming. The informed crowd read about Hondas plans. I can
    understand how the owners of hybrids feels. They
    got caught up in the hybrid hype, loss discount pricing by Japanese manufacturers and huge subsidies by federal and local governments. Now
    the reality sets in and despite that diesels are the
    clear non subsidized winner it is hard to admit to the
    fact. It is nice to know that the next years more
    money is spent on american farmers making biodiesel rather than sending money for oil to Opec
    or expensive Japanes batteries.
    Despite government trying to influence the market
    forces are winning. We should also thank people like Willie Nelson (see WNBIODIESEL.COM)
    When your batteries run out get ready for a diesel.

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  3. #322
    Guest

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    Certainly as I have mentioned before having monies go to Amercian Farmers as opposed to terrorist supporting nations makes sense.

    Current diesel options unfortunately are not a good choice of conscience, with consumer reports as well as this forum's smog calculator showing a painfully polluting reality for cars like the VW Jetta TDI.

    The oil companies are going to fight biodiesel/ethanol filling stations tooth and nail for awhile and already have started doing this.

    Hybrid choices give instant alternatives for clean air and decreased reliance on foreign imports.

    Most of the clean diesels have added a fair amount of emissions equipment with no track record and potential maintenance issues.

  4. #323
    Guest

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    "potential maintenance issues" coming from someone who advocate hybrids...LOL LOL...
    and besides we all know whats being discussed is
    diesel cars using the 50ppm sulphur diesel with
    a trap filter or another device like the upcoming
    honda with the plastma processing and please do
    no revert back to the old diesel bus in Houston..
    we are the newest techology diesel and hybrid

  5. #324
    Guest

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    The turbo statement I made (True or false) was response to your parting, off the wall jab you had previously made: "How many garages can fix a hybrid?"
    ...while the question should be asked "How many garages can't fix a hybrid?
    (Excluding Uncle Bucks' carburator shop and paint job)

    Most of my factory work has been done at local garages.

    http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/vw_smoke.html
    http://autos.msn.com/advice/CRArt.as...23460&src=News
    VW Jetta TDI got worst mileage of the bunch for 2000-2006.

  6. #325
    Guest

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    I should clarify "Bunch" as between Prius and HCH.

  7. #326
    Guest

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    among the "bunch" so how do you explain
    Autoweeks results, the previous mentioned
    USA Todays comparison of the TDI and Prius?
    Having owned a TDI close to 2 years and yet to get
    less than 41 mpg. I usually average 47mpg based
    on keeping record.

    This is how many owners of hybrids get handouts from me and other taxpayers.
    No sales tax charged in some states around
    $1500. Income taxdeduction for hybrid buyers
    based on 25% taxbracket $5000(unless there is a
    max limit for deduction)
    Use of HOV lanes..priceless. Why should the average taxpayer be forced to subsidize the owners of thos batterycars?
    Despite of the communist style promotion
    the hybrid is loosing ground and Hondas introduction of diesel into the US is a proof of a
    major turnaround.

  8. #327
    Guest

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    Warnings!!!!!!!!!

    I filled up my Jetta TDI yesterday at a Hess station.
    On the other side of the diesel pump was a diesel
    minibus. The young driver of the bus said to me:
    "Thats diesel"!!!!!!. A few seconds later the attendant open the door from his office and warn
    me as well. In certain European countries it is
    the other way around (well almost). They warn you
    if you are about to dispense gasoline into a Boraor a Jetta. It illustrates how little knowledge many americans have about diesel cars.

    http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005..._introduc.html

  9. #328
    Guest

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    Another slam on AMericans? First its the governments policy on protecting the environment and then how little we know... please.

    This explains why there is a lack of value by eurotroll poster placed on both the superior air quality standards of hybrids relative to diesel engines as well as the lack of imprtance placed on the Honda Civic Hybrid being composed of 85% American parts and soon to be assembled in the United States. Providing American Jobs, using American made parts, decreasing the pollution in the air, decreasing our dependence on foreign oil...

    The VW Jetta TDI may be a fine car, but consumer reports doesnt recommend it and considers diesel emissions a major problem. Many black dots and half black dots in the various consumer reports ratings compared to a see of red for Toyota and Honda Hybrids year after year

    The stats speak for themselves--- as does a clear eurotroll bias in many of the diesel supporting posts--- what a shame...

  10. #329
    Guest

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    The VW TDI from the past few years has had some fairly serious recalls related to its diesel engines.

    Honda is designing diesel engines for its larger vehicles but has deemed hybrid technology as most appropriate for smaller passenger vehicles... no surprise.

    Perhaps they will get it right were VW hasn't...lets hope so.

  11. #330
    Guest

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    MOS - why do you continue to refer to the Jetta TDI as "painfully polluting"? Just because of the "smog calculator" on this site?

    I can tell you as someone whose vocation is in air quality that NOx is highly NON-LINEAR with respect to "smog formation", and the "nitrogen oxide" paragraph under the "pollutants" section on this site needs to be re-written for clarification. NOx is not a single chemical compound but rather a collection of "oxides of nitrogen" which includes nitric oxide (NO) and nitrogen dioxide (NO2). NO (nitric oxide) actually DESTROYS ozone (smog):


    O3 + NO --> O2 + NO2


    By the way, nearly all of the NOx from diesel engines is in the form of NO.

    It's NO2 that's the "smog forming" form of NOx:


    NO2 + O2 + UV radiation --> O3 + NO


    You also keep ignoring the implications of the "weekend ozone effect" studies conducted by the U.S. Department of Energy (who certainly can't be accused of some sort of agenda) in which it's been shown that NO (ZERO) urban areas in the U.S. studied so far have shown an improvement in smog levels on weekends (and often show a disbenefit) when ambient NOx levels are as much as 50% lower and diesel truck traffic is as much as 80% less (vs. about a 15% decrease in almost-exclusively-gasoline light-duty traffic).

    The "smog calculator" on this site also doesn't include evaporative VOC (HC) emissions associated with the production, distribution and refueling of highly-volatile gasoline. According to the EPA's AP-42, nearly 5.5 KILOGRAMS of gasoline vapors are released during off-loading of a tanker of gasoline at a gas station, and that's using the latest and greatest in vapor recovery techniques. Compare that to about 20 GRAMS from off-loading a tanker of diesel fuel (essentially non-volatile). It is clear that gasoline vapors are MUCH MORE important in "smog formation" than NOx in urban areas, so you can't merely add together "tailpipe" VOC and NOx emissions and conclude ANYTHING about the "smog-forming" potential of the vehicle. By the way, carbon monoxide is also an ozone precursor (behaves like a VOC in the atmosphere).

    In addition, gasoline vapors decompose in the atmosphere into formaldehyde (a stable intermediate and suspected carcinogen) and organic particulate matter (again not accounted for in the "smog calculator" on this site). I know for a fact that organic PM accounts for a MUCH HIGHER percentage of ambient PM2.5 than does elemental carbon if you look at PM2.5 speciation, even in urban areas. The jury is still out as to how much of this organic PM is secondary organic aerosols from gasoline vapor decomposition. It has also been shown that diesel PM (from ALL diesel sources - both on- and off-road) account for only about 2%-3% of the ambient PM2.5 in large Southeastern U.S. cities (e.g., Atlanta), based on a study by the University of Tennessee.

    I'm not suggesting that diesel cars (TDIs) shouldn't be cleaned up to the greatest degree practicable, but if you're going to play the environmental card, at least be fair about it.

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