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  1. #191
    Guest

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    Mike G has laid out the dangers of Carbon Dioxide quite well. The VW Jetta 1.9 Diesel automatic produces 7532 pounds of Carbon Dioxide. In comparison, the Honda Civic Hybrid produces 5714 pounds of Carbon Dioxide gas.

    Based on Mike Gs detailed post, its apparent that the Diesel powered Jetta is a less environmentally friendly than the Honda Civic Hybrid.

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  3. #192
    Guest

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    Found some E85 data too, If you must have a pick up truck then the flex fuel is the way to go

    http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/byclass.htm

    10.1 tons vs 12.1 tons emissions or a 17% savings

    http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/byfueltype.htm

    the cars on this list will save you 20% on greenhouse gases

  4. #193
    Guest

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    MOS...again...are your thought and calculations
    based on old or new diesel coming up and on
    the cleanest diesels with trap filters?
    You seem to avoid that question.

  5. #194
    Guest

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    I agree with MOS, it ain't here yet. And god knows if it will fly in the US, but right now for fuel economy and greenhouse gases a gas Civic equals a TDI and the prius kicks both of their butts.

  6. #195
    Guest

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    The comparison calculator for fuel efficiency and air emissions issues can be used for a large number of vehicles. I am using diesel and hybrid vehicles that are available new from dealers today.

    other comments are based on diesel fuel in use and supplied at gas stations today. Flex engines and ethanol engines avialble today, and firmly announced vehicle releases such as the Honda Fit Hybrid in 2007.

    In each instance, air emission profiles and fuel efficiency favor the Hybrids over the Diesel offerings vehicle class by vehicle class, with the differences becoming more extreme as the vehicle sizes increase.

  7. #196
    Guest

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    Steve - not if you consider biodiesel.

    MOS - don't know how to make it any more clear. VOCs and CO are responsible for urban smog, not NOx, and any gasoline vehicle produces more if you take evaporative emissions into account.

  8. #197
    Guest

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    Quite apart from whether this or that model kicks that or this model's butt CO2-wise, is the need to get the maximum number of people to burn the least amount of fuel. Can we (hybrid vs. diesel types) at least agree on that?

    So then what's the strategy?

    A standard Civic (non-hybrid) gets about the same mileage as a Passat TDI which is a much larger and heavier car, and not quite as good as a Jetta TDI. But it is a lighter car than the Jetta. Drop a diesel into it; say a 90 hp unit like the original TDI, and it you will be looking at 50+ highway mpg; in fact the original TDI was rated for 64 miles per imperial gallon on the highway in Canada, which is 53 mpg. With careful design, you should be able to bump that up to 55 in a Civic-type automobile. I actually had a 99.5 TDI with that engine and my record was 68 mpg imperial or 57 mpg US, nothing special in the way of driving, just observing speed limits on good roads. The Civic Hybrid is rated only slightly better on the highway but few people seem to achieve that.

    That said, at least in Canada where the price premium on a hybrid is $3000 or more, and real-world efficiency is nowhere near the rated numbers for the average person, the CO2 impact is likely to be a lot less than if you have diesels with a $1500 premium that deliver advertised or better mileage.

    So either prices come down on the hybrids, or governments (read: taxpayers) subsidize them through tax incentives or direct subsidies. There are only two ways to get people to adopt sound practises: coerce them, or make it ecomically attractive.

    I used to lead the Environmental department of two different mid-sized manufacturing firms. Why did environmental programs finally take off? When we realized that many forms of environmental pollution actually = waste, and waste = lost revenues, high costs. Any good environmental manager worth his salt will tell upper management that he has a sure-fire recipe to save the company money and look good at the same time.

    Now if the Average Joe, working to make ends meet, needs a new car, is he going to pay extra for a hybrid that may never give him a return on that extra cost?

    Not bloody likely, unless the government forces him to, or gives him an incentive that makes it cost-effective.

    On the other hand a diesel, for the average driver, has a 2-3 year payback in fuel savings, plus about $2000 more at resale (essentially earning back the diesel premium).

    Hybrids are not per se a bad idea, but they need to become economically more attractive. Perhaps economies of scale will some day take care of that, in that case, kudos to you guys who are the pioneers.

    I however also happen to believe that diesels are part of the mix, and if a gas-electric hybrid is a good idea, a diesel electric may even be better. I also believe that if you're willing to sacrifice horsepower bragging rights, a good direct-injection diesel can come awfully close to a hybrid. My 57 mpg, 90 hp/155 lb-ft 99.5 TDI proved the point and also proved the point that you could have a car with less than 100 hp that had no trouble whatsoever keeping up with traffic.

    Put a 1.4 L diesel like the Polo's in the Honda Fit, couple it with a few fuel saving technologies like auto-stop, and I question whether a hybrid version makes any economic sense whatsoever, as it will be very economical, probably 60+ mpg, with resultant CO2 reductions.

    I'm not arguing that hybrids are bad, I'm arguing that diesel technology is the best way to get the most people making very impressive CO2 reductions now. What's needed is a 30% across-the-board reduction in CO2 and I just don't see how that's going to be achieved without diesels in the equation. In fact I would say that the winning formula is getting more people into smaller vehicles by:

    1) Having more small, efficient straight gassers at good entry-level prices like the Fit and Yaris
    2) Diesels available across all model ranges
    3) Hybrid drivetrains especially in large city fleets like taxicabs, government, vehicles, police vehicles, etc.
    4) Slapping a 100% tax on SUVs and pick-up trucks that are not used as bona-fide commercial or farm vehicles. They are the least efficient personal vehicle format.
    5) Heavily taxing vehicles that consume more than 7 lL/100 km on the highway and 10 L/100 km in the city, or put on a progressive tax as consumption goes up; you want to see as few people as possible ticking off the larger engine option on the order sheet whey buying a car.
    6) widespread availability of biofuels.

    Now let's all get together (hybrid and diesel guys) and trash large SUVs over a cold beer...

  9. #198
    Guest

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    MOS...u dont want to deal with reality. The reality
    is that the new diesel is available this fall and
    the dieselcars with trap filters benefitting from
    this new fuel are already produced, but not sold in
    the US because the sulphur is too high until this
    the fuel is on the market.
    The fuel and the cars are ready, but you dont want
    to recognize it.

  10. #199
    Guest

    Hybrid or Diesel?


  11. #200
    Guest

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    This thread is about Hybrid or Diesel? My focus is on todays available realities, not potential. Potential is interesting, but often doesnt come to fruition for one reason or another.

    Hybrids are available. so are diesel passenger cars to a small degree. Ethanol based dual engines are produced by Ford and GM, but not sold here due to lack of ethanol filling stations and production.

    The latest model passenger car diesels dont stack up to the latest model hybrids in fuel economy or emissions profile. That could change, as diesel offerings can improve and the current hybrids are simply an interim technology prior to the next step.

    But the choices we have are the choices we have, and do not include an Audi A2. That press release is from feb 2000-- thus my point. Its 2006 now, and still no A2 in the US.

    AS far as Hybrid and economics, the folks buying hybrid civics arent deciding between a civic hybrid and a civic DX. They are replacing Volvos, Infinitis, and other cars and moving from high maintenace, high pollution, low fuel efficiency gasoline cars to the hybrid alternative which pays them back very very quickly. The demographics in question have been studied with average annual incomes per buying group detailed.

    In the hybrid or diesel debate, I see a lot of emphasis and excitement centered on Hybrids, I dont see any announcements or emphasis in the US market for new and better diesel passenger cars than we already have. Show me a definite diesel car release upcoming in the US with a release date attached that bests 50 miles to the gallon and beats the Prius and Civic on emissions profiling. Show me one. Just one. The calculator on this website will serve as the objective measurement tool.

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