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  1. #161

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    Steve..my problem with some of the hybrod supporters is that they keep on comparing
    past diesel problems with new hybrid cars.
    Instead they should focus what is now or better
    yet what can be expected with the new diesel
    fuel coming in a few months.
    I also believe diesels have more fuel alternatives.
    Besides biodiesel there is so much natural gas
    that be used in diesel. See GTL


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  3. #162

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    ...and the title on this discussion is
    "Hybrid or Diesel"...I would think it is ok
    to contribute even if I am a diesel enthusiast or
    do the hybrid enthusiasts want to discuss among
    themselves then I will stay out of this

  4. #163

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    Oh I think the disscussion is fine, and I think the more fuel saving, ecologically freindly technologies that are developed the better. But when I checked this thread I came across about 10 consecutive posts by you. I'm holding out for the fusion powered McLaren.

  5. #164

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    Too bad Toyota probably won't import the Yaris diesel into the US. It would be a cheap alternative to the VW Rabbit diesel (VW is changing the name back to Rabbit). My first car was an old Camry diesel, but it got totaled by an idiot on the cell phone making an illegal left turn the second day I got it.

    Then it would be at the cheaper level, hybrid (Honda Fit) Vs. diesel (Yaris). I think the Yaris is cuter than the Fit.

  6. #165

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    For the record, Toyota does not sell diesels in the United States due to emission control issues. Their words not mine. They have wonderful diesel engines for sure; no arguement from me.

  7. #166

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    Also, having spent significant numbers of months across Western and Eastern Europe, the small diesel cars I actually see driven around are big time polluters. They would never pass an emissions test here in the US, nor do they apparently have to. And yes, a lot of these are older cars. But this could be what diesel engines do as a car ages and the emissions controls run their course. Also, very noisy. I don't doubt adavnces and efficiencies in diesel engines for a minute, but the reality on the ground today isn't encouraging to me. I do recognize some of the advantages in Fuel Efficiency of some diesel cars, but I believe these are being eclipsed by Hybrid and ethanol technologies based on the growing availability sales of hybrids as well as the dual engines ford and GM make for Brazil.

  8. #167

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    There u go again MOS...u saw some "polluting
    diesel cars in Europe" I am sure u did, but were
    they of the latest design? I am sure they have
    big polluters of old gassers too. In the warmer part
    of Europe there are a lot of 2 wheel vehicles and
    they pollute as they dont have cats.
    We have big polluters too. Trucks, Suvs MPV
    anything registered as truck has a complete different requirement even if the manufacturer use
    the same engine as the sedan.
    Europeans are more worried about CO2 gases as
    a problem. Here it is on the backburner.
    The japanese diesel can easely pass the emissions
    here in the US when we get the proper diesel fuel.
    Some anti diesel folks out there are still harping
    on the old diesel fuel and diesel cars.
    Wont give up so what is the purpose to discuss?
    Did anyone read the link from JD Powers?

  9. #168

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    Bjorn I looked over your link to eee.gov.
    It's a very informative 101 on diesel basics.
    The vague title is meaningless.
    Where's the data?
    Where's the proof?

    I haven't the time at the moment but later hope to check out your other links later this eve.
    Hopefully there will be some study of proof there.

    Sincerely, thanks for the links....at least you offer some.

    In the mean time I'll report that Hybrid cars with their original batteries last at least half a million miles on average.

  10. #169

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    Its from the US Gov Dept of Energy...what else
    can one ask for?
    My links are no good, but yours are?
    Like the one you sent from an ad for a lubrication

  11. #170

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    It bugs me also that the anti-diesel crowd are basing their opinions on observations of older technology.

    There are sound reasons to expect that the new diesels will not deteriorate as much when they get older. Moreover, I have been nearly fumed to death by plenty of older 80s and early 90s gassers, spewing oil fumes and unburnt fuel from poorly maintained and adjusted engines. What makes you think that this is any better than worn-out diesels? I rather find worn-out gassers worse in fact, and the fumes are more volatile.

    In fact what you're doing is as dishonest as if I compared current fuel-injected gasoline engines to early 80's carburetted gasoline engines.

    But back to why new-generation diesels cannot be compared to the old smoke-belchers of the '80s.

    Quite apart from direct injection, is the manner in which diesel fuel injection systems now work. The '80s diesels relied on purely mechanical injection pumps with purely mechanical injection timing. Like any mechanical components, they wear out and when they fall out of spec the injection timing is no longer as precise and so they start to smoke more.

    On VW TDIs of the first generation, a rotary injection pump was used with electronic injection timing.

    On the current unit-injector systems, there is no fuel injection pump but there's a low-pressure pump that pressurizes the fuel feed to the unit injectors. These injectors themselves are pressurized off the camshaft; the camshaft operates a spring-loaded rocker arm that pressurizes the injector to about 20,000 psi. The actual fuel delivery and timing is done by adjusting the opening of the nozzle and this is achieved electronically. There is no injection pump per se, but rather 4 individual unit injectors (on a 4-cyl diesel).

    Other manufacturers, and soon VW, use common-rail systems. A high-pressure injection pump keeps the fuel lines to the injectors pressurized at very high pressure (20,000 psi or so). Again electronic control of the injector meters fuel delivery and timing; with common rail you can also time multiple squirts on the same power stroke for finer control of emissions which is not possible with unit injectors as the pressurization is not constant with unit injectors.

    Like any mechanical device they are subjected to wear but at least the injection timing remains under electronic control with newer generation diesels. Gas cars can also wear out. Catalysts don't have infinite life, throttle bodies can wear out, compression can go down, oil consumption can go up. All have negative effects and I challenge anybody to prove that there are no smoke-belching gassers out there. Fortunately though many jurisdictions have mandatory emissions testing so theoretically both bad gassers and bad diesels can be weeded out or sent for repairs.

    Oh, and for MOS, the reason Toyota cannot meet emissions in the USA has little to do with diesel technology, and everything to do with the crappy high-sulphur sludge that passes as diesel fuel in North America. But this will end in 2007 and Shell Canada have in fact started distribution of ultra-low sulphur diesel in Quebec and Alberta.

    Diesels have proven to be part of the (clean) solution in environmentally conscious Europe for at least a decade now. The longer it takes for you to jump on this train, the longer you will remain shackled to foreign fuel. A 70 mpg Yaris or Fit is possible with a diesel with less complexity and at lower cost than a hybrid. Europe already has far less dependence on oil than North America, and with very few hybrids as well.

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