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  1. #201

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    You still dont want to understand MOS. The Audi
    A2 diesel exist and could be on the US market
    when the clean diesel is here. And the reality
    is that will be here in a few months.
    Using your rules no one should even mention an
    improved hybrid that will be available this year???
    While deciding what is the best choice is to calculate
    what is more energy saving to build. Is it a hybrid
    or a diesel? What about the two fuels and transport? There are many factors to take into account. It seem that we have ended in a stalemate, but hopefully readers and particpants
    have learned from each other. I will be just doing reading from the sidelines for a while.
    I have one question first.
    Where can hybridcars be repaired once they are
    off their warranty? Can they be repaired at any garage? If not will that be possible in the near future and will repair cost be similar to regular cars?

    but hopefully

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  3. #202

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    sel cars, but I believe these are being eclipsed by Hybrid and ethanol technologies based on the growing availability sales of hybrids as well as the dual engines ford and GM make for Brazil.

    May 09, 2006

    ...above is a quote from MOS...apparently it is ok
    when he promotes cars and fuels in other countries
    likr Brasil, but when it comes to readely avaiable
    diesel cars in other countries he does not think
    that is relevant...do I have to say more...wonder
    if he ever visited Europe...where did he hear noisy
    diesels...if he was in Europe he must have seen
    alot of modern diesel and one thing they are not
    and that is noisy...

  4. #203

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    here is another "contribution" by MOS and
    he is talking about the future, but it is ok when
    it comes to hybrids...

    " When the army of truely affordable high mileage hybrids become avialble as the next few years progress less efficient cars are going to be replaced by ones with MUCh higher fuel efficiency. The transition is actually going to be fairly quick"

    what he is talking about does not even exist in any part of the world like the super clean diesels

  5. #204

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    Hyundai and Honda have announced releases of small affordable Hybrid cars for next year. This, inconcert, with the already available models to me constitutes a small army of choices not avialble in diesel cars in the US.

    In addition, GM and Mercedes are working on a better hybrid solution. Ford and GM have duel use motors cpable of running on ethanol which in theory could support our own farmers and rural communities instead of terrorism.

    Many of the above posts seeming to favor diesel for some odd reason aren't based on anything available currently, or with any certainty in the near future. Links for 6 year old press releases that never happened here ( I have seen the Audi A2 and A3 in europe a gizillion times), fuels with no availability in the US, cars that aren't here and arent scheduled to be here. Toyota stating they wont release a diesel in the US due to lack of longevity of emmision controls.

    And no offering of any available diesel that can meet or beat the air emmisions characteristsics and fuel efficiencies of current hybrids, class by class. Diesel has been around a long time, yet still pollute and are noisy. Hybrids have a short track record, are still in development, and are immediately successful.

    So for the HYbrid versus diesel question in the US passenger car market, I choose Hybrid; it is the present and seemingly a growing part of the future. Tiem will tell though, thats the cool part. We can all sit back and watch.

  6. #205

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    MOS ..you still wrote about what is available
    in Brasil and those cars are not here.
    Futhermore we are discussing what is available or
    possible right now. You know you are wrong.
    Just dont want to admit it and I dont think you
    ever put your foot in Europe.

  7. #206

    Hybrid or Diesel?


    I've sort of been following your 'discussion' with MOS and noted that you suggest that hybrids can't be repaired by normal mechanics.

    Actually, that is one of the reasons that good hybrids are so badly resisted by the automotive companies: They don't have to be maintained by mechanics as much.

    An optimized hybrid drivetrain (MOS won't be interested since they are not available today, and won't provide instant gratification) will require minimal service. Brakes will likely only be used in emergencies, hence, they should last at least 200,000 miles. The engine use will be very benign hence oil change will be more a function of time than use (maybe every year or so). Coolant will need periodic replacing. I'm guessing that a hybrid can be built with simply an annual maintenance (oil change, lube, and checkup), a 50,000 mile service (replace tires, flush coolant, check up), and a 200,000 mile replacement of the traction battery and brakes. If a car runs for 500,000 miles, it will only see a real mechanic 2 times for the battery and brakes. The regular checkups can be done by any grease monkey at a Jiffy-Lube.

    I don't think a Diesel (unless its a hybrid) can offer such simple maintenance.

    Of course, a pure Battery Electric will require about the same maintenance as your refrigerator with the possible exception of new tires and lube about every 50,000 miles and new traction battery at about 200,000 miles.

  8. #207

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    "...Show me a definite diesel car release upcoming in the US with a release date attached that bests 50 miles to the gallon and beats the Prius and Civic on emissions profiling. Show me one. Just one...."

    Actually, the upcoming Mercedes E320 "Bluetec" (http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006...es_to_int.html ) comes pretty close to those criteria:

    "…Mercedes Benz’ used such a feat to launch its new V6 CDI diesel engine. It had three cars picked at random off the production line, sealed, taken to a track in Texas and run flat out for 100,000 miles. Each E 320 CDI car ran flawlessly for 30 days straight while averaging 224 kmh (140mph)…"


    "…The new Mercedes V6 CDI diesel engine, set to replace the existing five and six-cylinder in-line engines from summer 2005, has marked the start of its career with a string of world records. Fitted in three standard-production E 320 CDI models, the 165 kW/224 hp power plant covered the 100,000 kilometers, 50,000 and 100,000 miles respectively in world-record time* - and without any technical problems…. ...Despite the extreme stresses, the maintenance-free diesel particulate filter held up magnificently over the entire record distance without any deterioration in performance – further testimony to the reliability and durability of this exhaust technology...."


    "…Without stopping to refuel each of the unmodified CDI models covered a distance of 1039 miles (1672 km), which corresponds to a fuel consumption of 4.75 litres per 100 kilometres…."

    "…The recent record-breaking run will give additional emphasis to the low fuel consumption of diesel models – 49.9 mpg is a phenomenal figure which many American consumers have previously considered to be absolutely impossible in this vehicle class…."


  9. #208

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    I've just had my car in for the 65,000 mile oil change. I get free oil changes at the dealer where I bought it.

    They report that my brakes are practically like new.
    Much of the time I'm letting the regen do my slowing.

  10. #209

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    Yup, Georgia is Hot AND Flat :-)

    The poor mechanic now has to find something else to try to charge you now to get his $200 minimum visit target. That 'free' oil change is supposed to be bait to get your car in so they can find something else to repair.

    Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on if you are buying or selling), the minimal maintenance needs for hybrids and even more so, pure electrics are going to kill a whole lot of the auto industry.

    Mechanics just love diesels!

  11. #210

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    Your greencar link:
    Their Sedan's 35MPG is not an Earth shaking revelation, even a Toyota Camry gets 33MPG and the article even states that the SUV version is comparable with GM's hybird efficiency.

    Funny how the diesel crowd try and portray hybrid as overly complicated while they champion a 35MPG sedan which drag all these devices and more:
    Oxidizing Catalytic Converter,
    DeNOx Catalytic Covnerter,
    Particulate Filter
    and another Catalytic Converter.
    Some "Urea" style injectiors and what else.

    Zigmag article:
    I don't find it all that impressive for these reasons:
    *Why did it require a 26 member team of mechanics to make it do that run?
    While replacement of entire assemblies weren't allowed, but other non-factory tweaking was. (Page 3)
    *Running on a flat track is vastly different than real-world driving, perhaps that's why they chose that medium.
    140MPH isn't realistic. I'd rather see a more realistic 60MPH at 120MPG on a flat track and the Honda Insight Hybrid will surely do that.
    *Diesel enthusiasts always tout the hybrid "Premium". The E320CDI around $55,000....
    *30 Continuous days on a flat track is far cry from 10 years highway/city actual use.

    Car and Driver
    Only did around 24MPG with this overly complicated vehicle.

    Road and Travel
    Only got around 30MPG.

    Fuel economy dot gov:
    30MPG combined.

    Thanks for the links wxman.
    Everywhere I've seen 700miles to the tank with this car, but only for its over sized extended 21 gallon capacity.
    I'm exceeding 800 miles with my Civic Hybrids 13-14 gallon tank.

    Although it seems like I'm only trashing this very nice car honestly I don't mean to.
    Truly It's a better alternative to a regular gasoline model.
    I haven't time at the moment to research its non-diesel model (If there is one), or its competitions model but wonder what is the premium for this overly complicated vehicle?

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