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  1. #51

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    Just amazing why people in the USA has not
    "discovered" the modern diesel automobile.
    After having having owned a Jetta TDI 2003 with just minor problems so far we (my wife and myself)
    purchased a used Jetta TDI 2005 last December.
    The older Jetta has 67000 miles and the newer
    one 17000 miles. We are routinely getting 45mpg
    in everyday driving. Many write ups states that diesels get 25% better mileage. Try 50-70%.
    Autoweek states that purchasing a car with diesel
    engines carry an extra cost of $3000. The fact is
    that the Jetta TDI cost about $1000 more and
    keep its resale value much better than the Jetta
    with the gasoline engine. The same goes for all
    diesel cars on the market.
    Wonder when the general public will open their eyes?

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  3. #52

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    I never thought I would own a VW TDI...my other vehicles are BMW 540, X5, Corvette and several others. We find ourselves fighting over the keys for the VW. It has the newer automatic that shifts similar to a standard transmission. I'm no going to explain it, do the research if you care. After looking into hybrids and the fantastic mythical milage we bought the VW. Before you jump all over me let me explain. Every test I've read, every magazine article I've read, every current hybrid owner I've spoken with says the milage is over rated by at leaset 20 to 30%. So much so that the goverment gas milage ratings will be changed next year to reflect the 20 to 30% disscrepency. Oh ya did I mention the Prius is just plain ugly. However, I welcome everything Toyota and Honda have done to put these vehicles in the main stream. Even with their reduction in milage they still get more milage per gallon than most while also forcing American car companies to apply this technology to it's current build plan. Back to the VW. It's truley fun to drive and the Epa numbers are actually under rated on diesels. The worst we have gotten is 44mpg, while the most on a trip was 54mpg. Not to hard to take. They no longer smell as they did years ago and they are surprising quick. If VW ever comes out with a hybrid diesel I would think it would get 70mpg. Now that would be a car!

  4. #53

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    Bjorn, here's another good one relating to renewable energy:

  5. #54

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    someone here said that an electiric motor gets 200+ ft/lbs at 0-1500 rpm. With electric motors, the torque is entirely dependent on the amount of power (volts*amps) coming into the motor, at 0 rpm and 200+ ft/lbs of torque, most any eletrical motor would over heat and cause parts to melt. And, "diesel" trains are not truely hybrid, atleast not in the same manner that most cars are hybrid today; rather the diesel fuel goes into the diesel engine which run at a fairly constant RPM powering an electric generator, which inturns charges a battery and powers several electric motors. the reason for this, is it's much easier for the conductor the vary the output speed of electric motors-wheels then it is for him to vary the output speed of a piston driven engine-wheels, as this requires a transmission. But typical hybrids will not negate the need for a transmission. though, with the use of rotary or quasi-turbine engines or non-hybrid electrics can negate the need for a transmission. Oh, and H2 sucks, cause it offers no enviroment benifit unless the H2 is produced in a region that has hydro/wind or solar power. not to say this isn't possible, it's very well possible, but it'll also demand a dramatic infrastructre change. but I'd highly advocate it for use in race cars, as it deffinately has the explosive off the line power that leaves gasoline in the dust. literarly

    all and all, I think bio-diesel running running through a turbine (jet (offers superiour fuel economy, when in it's very very narrow optimum torque operating RPM... otherwise, offers hidiously low fuel economy)) engine hybrid with a CVT (continuessly variable transmission); bio-diesel running through a rotary or quasi-turbine engine hybrid; or bio-diesel running through a turbine engine powering a eletric generator which inturn powers eletric motors at each of the drive wheels (eliminates heavy power train, increases adjustibility of wheel speeds) are the best fuel-economic, eco-friendly and power-practicle solutions.

    as for Prious and the other "super fuel eco car hybrids", they suck, they're are motorcycles that get simular of better fuel economy running gas carbed 4 strokes that have simular utility (if you start lashing baggage onto a Prious or other "super eco car", you are going to decrease the aerodynamics considerable; whereas some motorcycles get 70 mpg with aerodynamics so bad you can't do much to make them worse), lower initial cost, lower maitinace cost, are easier to maintaine yourself (hence even cheaper) and are just awhole hell of a lot more fun.

  6. #55

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    Issac, that's a new twist not heard of before: comparing a mid-size Prius or a popular Honda Civic to motorcycles.

    Motorcycles average only about 51MPG:

    Prius and Honda Civic Hybrid MPG are pretty close to this and many far exceed 51MPG with a nice comfortable ride.
    Never seen a 5 safety star rated motorcycle.

    I've read where the average motorcycle weight is 300lbs. HCH and Prius is around 2000lbs.
    Can you agree that it is amazing that today's 2000lb hybrid car MPG avergages about the same MPG as a 300lb motorcycle?


    You lost me with the melting motors, wind turbines and H2 but I'm looking forward to the new high power density batteries to come on the market.
    Some exiting examples:

    Lots of info out there on these developments.
    Perhaps EV3's and EM's (Electric Motorcycle) will be available in a few years?
    Sign me up!

  7. #56

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    safty derived from weight, only works by taking away safty from who ever you hit. and it's typically the heavier object hitting the lighter object. So, safty derived from weight basicly boils down to arrogence. Granted, MC's still have much smaller crunch zones, but they also have higher capability to avoid an accident all together.

    and, most 300 lbs motorcycles get more then 51 mpg, and I can't even think of very many motorcycles that weigh 300 lbs. my motorcycle (which I bought in non-running order and don't have running yet, but according to documentation and other people with the same bike) is 589 cc and 318 lbs wet, and gets about 60-70 mpg. Lighter bikes, like Rebels, get better mileage, but lack speed and pick up (aka, fun); though they for some reason have higher safty ratings (atleast the Rebel does).... 51 mpg, I've seen for heavy bikes, like Harlyes, but not lighter bikes.... hell, Kawasaki has a bike that gets 120 mpg Diesel.... sure, they lack the ability to carry massive amounts of mass, but they have alot less of there own mass to carry around too.... but really, putting a Honda Rebel, or XL600, or Buell Blast in the same catagory as the Kawasaki KLR 650 or anything Harley; makes as much sense as putting a Saturn SL200 in the same catagory as the Prious or Humvee..... but anyway, unless you are counting old fashion high displacement 2 strokes (newer 2 strokes use direct fuel injection, and don't suffer from having the intake and exhaust open at the same time), I can't think of any bikes that would weight ~300 lbs and get <70 mpg.

    H2, has to be seperated from water; this requires electricity. there is no point to even look at H2 untill you have clean power plants. But, for the current day; though H2 lacks any "eco friendly" incentive, it packs alot of "G force friendly" incentive.

    and Michael claimed: "295 lb-ft at 0-1200 rpm in the Prius"

    I don't believe for a moment that it can generate 295 ft*lbs at 0 rpm. For it do so would require a whole hell of a lot of amps and a very high resistence. this combination makes alot of heat.

  8. #57

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    Issac if you're saying that a motorcycle is as safe as a car I think it is a lost debate.
    Many states require helmets for riders but not for autos. Why?

    Some other info:

    Are you saying in the case of Civic slamming motorcycle or motor cycle slamming Civic (Or Prius)...at....say 45MPH you'd rather take it on the bike?

    Would you rather ride your bike in cold/wind/rain/snow rather than a warm car that gets about the same MPG?

    I don't mean to take away the fun and enjoyment of motorcycles, they surely do have their place.

    I read the average motorcyle weight from this website:

  9. #58

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    Biodiesel IS renewable energy.

  10. #59

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    all gas is going up
    diesel is stric regulation june of 06 massive sulfer reduction
    diesel engines do get great resale over non-diesel counter-parts
    never go by KBB use nada.org it's setup by DEALERS with actual prices not paid for prices garbage
    diesel technology (hybrid too) is actually severly outpacing non-diesel technology
    diesel is expected to overtake normal gas technology in a few years as it has been underdeveloped and normal gas technology is reaching peaks.
    a hybrid diesel would be awesome
    money.com on comments on consumer reports showing hybrids owners not getting there money's worth in most cases resale also
    if you evaluate a honda hybrid vs say the matrix and normal accords both have normal gas engines that get 30-40 mpg anyways for 4000ish less. So the technology needs to mature more because financed 4000 is actually 6-7000 dollars over 5 years at a non 0% interest rate. So they are not that much improvement over thier same family counter parts. (don't compare to american cars there lack of engine and transmission focus for years caused them to suffer in the mpg arena) Compare a honda gas to honda hybrid not much differance.

  11. #60

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    In fact according to the EPA numbers an Accord EX non-hybrid automatic has exactly the same rating as the Accord V6 hybrid, 28 mpg overall (and less than my Passat diesel, which is rated at 31 mpg overall).

    It seems to me that the hybrid Accord is just to calm the consciences of people wanting to drive a 255 hp V6. Why pay extra for the hybrid when the base 4-cyl motor has plenty of pep (160 hp) for anybody's real needs, and can be had in the all-dressed EX trim level? It certainly isn't worth the hefty price premium Honda charges. There's NO WAY that it will pay for itself, especially if financed.

    Hybrid technology only make sense to me if there's a real gain in economy that can generate a payback. Maybe a Prius or Civic hybrid has a chance but an Accord (or SUV hybrid)? Never.

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