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  1. #21
    Guest

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    My bad, but I plugged in the retail value and the Jetta came out $800 more than the HCH. For trade-in, the HCH is worth slightly more.

    Seems to me that dealers are making a real killing over the Jettas, buying low and asking outrageous prices.


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  3. #22
    Guest

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    The Canadian situation for TDIs is no doubt helped by the fact that 50% of VW's Canadian sales are diesels, as opposed to less than 10% for the US.

    High demand up here is no doubt keeping used values high.

    In 2002 I traded in my '99 TDI on an Accord I leased. I paid $25000 CDN for the TDI, and 3 years and 50,000 miles later, I got $17500 trade-in value. It was the highest resale performance of any car I ever owned and inspired me to get another one when the lease expired on the Accord.

    The Accord wasn't a bad car (4-cyl VTEC), but the Jetta burns nearly half as much fuel (5 l/100 km vs 9 l/100 km).

    Mike

  4. #23
    Guest

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    Mike,

    I honestly don't know what you values you are putting in to get the $800 difference, perhaps it is the zip code. I asked if you give quotes give us the specifics, which you did not. Here are some more.

    KBB--Retail for 2003, 30,000 miles, manuals, options that are already checked, 79416
    HCH: $17,445
    GL TDI: $17,735
    There was a difference, but only $290.

    As the mileage goes up though, watch out: Same as above with 50K
    HCH: $15,545
    GL TDI: $15,535
    Now you get $10 more for the HCH.

    KBB--Private Resell for 2003, 30,000 miles, manuals, options that are already checked, 79416
    HCH: $16,435
    GL TDI: $15,880
    Interesting that if you sell it to a private person, you get $555 more for a HCH than a Jetta TDI.

    Priave with 50K
    HCH: $14,535
    GL TDI: 13,680
    $855 more for a HCH.

    (And from previous post)
    KBB--Trade-in for 2003, 30,000 miles, manuals, options that are already checked, 79416
    HCH: $15,450
    GL TDI: $14,150
    $1,300 more for the HCH

    Trade-in with 50K
    HCH: $13,550
    GL TDI: $11,950
    $1600 more for the HCH.

    Some more math from a hybrid freak:

    Average difference at 30K: $520 more for the HCH (550+1300-290/3)

    Average difference at 50K:$821.67 more for the HCH
    (10+855+1600/3).

    Again this is for the US in TX. Having a higher demand for TDI's in the Canada no doubt has an impact on values. But what is true in Canada is not necessarily true in the US and consequently not true for US buyers.

    Hybrids: The fuel economy car for the college educated. (I would love to get an economy car for 10-15K with Smart Entry/Smart Start, Nav System, Bluetooth, Voice-activated commands, Homelink, VSC, Traction Control, etc, etc and gets the mileage of the Prius, but I can't seem to find one!)

    (BTW: I am not against diesels, I just don't see any ways in which they are "better than" hybrids.) Diesels are worse on pollution (now--I am not counting ULSD as it isn't in the US yet or biodiesel which isn't widely available) and offer no benefit with gas mileage over a hybrid. Other things like what is fun to drive, looks, interior design is completely subjective.



  5. #24
    Guest

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    "Hybrids: The fuel economy car for the college educated."

    That may be true in the US especially since you get some nice tax incentives to buy one. Up here in Canada, it's more like "Hybrids, the fuel economy car for those who flunked math".

    I drive 60,000 km/year (37,000 miles) of mostly highway, and with the resale value and price differentials, there is NO WAY I will make up the difference in the slight fuel economy difference between diesel and hybrid, particularly since those are 90% highway mileage, for which a diesel is optimal and a hybrid is not. Even for me, probably a Corolla sedan would have made as much economic sense as a TDI but there are other benefits to the TDI, one of which is low-end torque, and the other, the ability to do over 1000 km between fill-ups, consistently. Plus the wagon versions are extremely practical as "SUV-killers". With ESP stabilization, and a wagon that gets me 48 mpg, who needs an SUV?

    I'm not against hybrids either, but I believe that to get the masses to jump aboard, especially in a country where the cost of living is higher and incomes generally lower, you need economic incentives. It's great to save gas but if the overall cost of ownership is much lower with a car that's only slightly worse on fuel consumption, where's the consumer benefit? Sounds selfish but basically capitalism works on selfish principles.

    With luck, and your tax incentives, hybrids will gain market share which will drive down the price of the technology to where it DOES make economic sense for a Canadian.

  6. #25
    Guest

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    Mike,

    You are right: Today, pure diesel is quite economical on the pocketbook. There are very few new R&D costs, startup costs, or infant mortality risks that the car industry has to assume. In the long term though, hybrids will be much cheaper than conventional ICE (Internal Combustion Engine) because hybrid technology can obviate the need for a transmission and sophisticated engine control while reducing the necessary size of the ICE.

    Hybrids are only for those who think long-term somce clearly they are the best way to use ICE technology. Fortunately, there are a lot of people who do think long-term. Many people, particularly here in the US, are willing to reward the manufacturers who also think long-term by buying the Hybrids at very high prices (and wait in line for the priviledge) in order to do the right thing (some, of course just want to look like they think long term but I have no problem exploiting them). This support is done both by consumers and at the government level.

    Today's hybrids are pretty good and tommorrow's can be even better if the industry continues to work to bring out their entire potential. Diesels aren't likely to see any revolutionary improvements over the remainder of their lifetime unless, of course, someone starts making diesel hybrids.

    I would suggest that instead of just accepting the status quo; you work to put pressure on the Canadian people and government to join the US in supporting (sorry if support is a bit expensive) good technology instead of just complaining how expensive good, new technologies are in their infancy.

  7. #26
    Guest

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    Mike,

    Yeap, in the US, hybrids are the fuel economy car of the educated. (82% of Prius owners have a college degree: http://www2.ctcentral.com/ctcars/ful...11152003NT1810 ). Many other articles mention how hybrid owners are more educated and more affluent than the average car owner.

    I have said multiple times that I speak for in the US and don't speak for Canada. IMO, you should qualify your statements that they only apply in Canada. I am glad that you did so for your last post.

    If a person wants to be technical, any new car is for those who flunked math. Get a slightly used Corolla or Echo and get good mileage for many miles.

    Again I will state that a diesel does no better on the highway than a hybrid (i.e. the Prius still gets 50 mpg on the interstate).

    I don't mean to be an elitist, but I am much more concerned about the masses in US than Canada or Europe. I doubt that hybrids will ever catch on in Europe or Canada like they are here since diesels already have such a good market share and the economic incentives aren't there. I think that other countries, like China, will still see hybrids become for the masses.

    Economically, it may never make it in Canada, there may always have to be other incentives, like you mentioned there are other reasons why a person gets a certain car. A person could equally want low emissions, like the styling, or want options that are not on a diesel. (Or on a hybrid).

    Toyota has pledged to work on reducing the hybrid premium by half in the next few years. I have hope that they will, they have met their goals with hybrids so far.

  8. #27
    Guest

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    Lot of arguing going on here-- let's take it outside. Us diesel owners are inviting you hybrid owners to a friendly mileage competition. Get details on the "Invitiation- - " post, or visit www.tdiclub.com

    Ernie Rogers

  9. #28
    Guest

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    My wife and I recently purchased a Jeep Liberty Diesel. Reasons:

    Ford Escape Hybrid was almost $10K more than the Jeep.

    Yes, Diesel is much more expensive, at least here in South Carolina. Diesel is $3.19 to $3.39 a Gallon and Gas is around $2.82 plus or minus a little. However, we can purchase BD20 (20% Bio and 80% diesel) here in SC at about 20 cents a gallon less. The Jeep burns clean with the BD20 fuel and is very strong, much stronger than the Hybrid Ford. It gets about 28mpg in town and about 33 on the highway. Not much less than the Hybrid, but much better than a gasoline version.

    I also own a Dodge 2500 with the Cummins Diesel. Same reasons, it gets about 50% better mileage than gasoline trucks, will last forever, and runs Bio.

    So, this college educated Engineer weighed all the factors and went with the Diesel.

    Lower first time cost
    High mileage
    Runs clean when on BioDiesel
    Lower maintenance cost
    Much longer vehicle life (it will still be running strong at 300,000miles)


    Don

  10. #29
    Guest

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    Don, I haven't researched the larger pick-up truck diesels but I do know that I close all windows and set it to recirculate when ever I'm near one.
    Often times the exhaust pipe is shoulder level if stopped next to one.

    You can often smell them several cars back.

    Regarding the diesel auto - they have a much shorter life span than regular gas cars and the maintenance is much higher.

    If you'd like some links to reference I can post them.

  11. #30
    Guest

    Hybrid or Diesel?

    "Regarding the diesel auto - they have a much shorter life span than regular gas cars and the maintenance is much higher. "

    Would you like to qualify this statement with some facts? This is patently false.

    There are many VW and Mercedes diesels in Canada with well over 400,000 km (250,000 miles). I've seen them and ridden in one. It was well-worn but still going strong.

    The maintenance intervals on our two TDIs include oil/filter changes at 10,000 mile intervals. Timing belts, something many gas cars need as well, are at 100,000 miles now. Other filters are the same as gas cars. There is no ignition system to service.

    Short-term the only extra with diesels is draining the water separator. Long-term, injection pumps (except for the PD cars), and glow plugs. Other accessory items on diesel vs. gas (e.g. water pumps, alternators, transmissions, etc) are the same as for gasoline vehicles. Some do require intake manifold cleaning (due to the EGR system) especially if driven a lot at slower speeds or lugged.

    So far on our two TDIs the only maintenance we've done include oil and filter changes.

    I've done the economic analysis and even with the older TDI engines (up to 2003) that required 55,000 mile timing belt changes, the cost of the belt change was about $0.01 cents per kilometer on a car that was saving about $0.05 cents per kilometer in fuel.

    Why don't you ask someone with a VW diesel to show you the manufacturer's recommended maintenance intervals for the diesels compared to the gas versions? You'd actually find that the TDI requires LESS, not more, maintenance than the base Passat engine for instance (the 1.8T), and the same as the V6 and 2.0 4-cyl engines in the Passat and other models

    Mike G.

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