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  1. #11

    dsl vs. hbd continued...

    A diesel electric train is not a hybrid in the same sense a car is. The diesel-electric train just uses the electric motor as a transmission, and when it brakes, the brake pressure is converted to electricity and then exhausted as heat through the top of the train (though the noise is very similar to regenerative braking on a hybrid). A true hybrid train would get little efficiency gain from regenerative braking, because it spends so little time actually braking relative to the distance it travels, and most of the time it is operating under full engine load (unlike a car). Only purely electric trains use regenerative braking, and even then the effect is mostly limited to other train using the same catenary system.

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  3. #12

    dsl vs. hbd continued...

    Just a quick question, but when the Ultra Low Sulphur Diesel comes in effect, I have been told that a late model diesel engine (2006-2007) cannot burn any fuel in excess of 15 ppm of sulphur content. This will plug the so-called converter or filter in the exhaust, malfunction the exhaust emission probe and possibly cause the injection computer to be re-programmed. Currently, low sulpher is approx. 500 ppm, and the refineries have the content down in ULSD to 7 to 9 ppm and after it is transfered through the pipeline it reaches the maximun allowance of 15 ppm. Having said that, all underground tanks, aboveground tanks, piping, hoses etc. have to be throughly purged before a new diesel requiring no more than 15ppm fills up at a station,, that is quite a job to ensure this equipment is cleaned out,, second, who wants to be the first with their new vehicle to fill up and take the chance??

  4. #13

    dsl vs. hbd continued...

    I dont want to live on the "Hybrid Coast"
    The HOV lanes would be clogged with useless
    hybrids which will end up in wrecking yards
    after only 100000 miles versus 400000miles
    for frugal, inexpensive, low maintenance modern
    diesel engines.

  5. #14

    dsl vs. hbd continued...

    Eric do you have any references that hybrid cars last 100K miles and diesel cars last 400K miles or just your opinion/speculation?

    What about the premium for the TDI over the Jetta gasoline version?
    I went to vw.com and built a nice gasoline Jetta and it came out to about $18,500.

    Then I built a TDI with about the same options as an HCH comes stock with and came out to more than $25,000.

    That's a $6,300 premium for the TDI vs gasoline model.
    How much fuel will $6,300 buy?

    Check it out for yourself http://www.vw.com

    The premium on my HCH was about $1,700 over a comparably equipped EX and was erased within the first year.

  6. #15

    dsl vs. hbd continued...

    Hi Steve...if we are going to discussing if diesel engines
    are more durable than gasoline engines then we might
    as well discuss if 2+2=4 or 5.
    A few weeks ago I posted a link from the goverment
    stating among other things that diesels last much longer.
    Here is another link

    Comparing 2006 Jettas.
    Turbo gasoline, direct injection MSRP $23590

    Turbo diesel, direct injection MSRP $21605

    Diesel is almost $ 2000 cheaper!!!!!!!!!!!!

    That buys a lot of diesel...
    Many american manufactureres charge a very
    high premium for the diesel option, but MB and VW
    do not.

  7. #16

    dsl vs. hbd continued...

    Its american, but we cant have while they can...how
    stupid is this...in the meantime the public does not
    know about this "secret, but instead busy reading
    about what Paris Hilton escapades..


  8. #17

    dsl vs. hbd continued...

    correction above should be "about Paris Hilton's

  9. #18

    dsl vs. hbd continued...

    Eric the only information I found from your link was another forum full of opinions from diesel enthusiasts.

    The average driver goes about 15K miles/year.
    If diesel autos averaged 400K miles then most diesels made since 1980 would still be on the road today.

    Since they are not still on the road where are they?
    I've heard a few ideas from other diesel enthusasts:

    #1. The bodies wear out before the engine does.
    If this were true there would be a large market for good, cheap used UNREBUILT diesel engines with high miles.
    There is no such market becuse there are no such engines worth selling.

    #2. People drive them till the wheels fall off.
    See my 1980 comment above.

    #3 They are kept garaged.
    Probably the most idiodic idea I've heard....as if somone would have his '81 Golf with 400K miles parked next to his other prized collector cars.

    Yes the 20T costs more than a TDI....The Turbo is a performance machine which gets 0-60 in about 6.5 seconds....while the TDI slugs along at about the same rate as my HCH in the 11 second range.

    If I were dead set on buying VW for some strange reason and getting the best dollar for mile car I'd get the Jetta VE for $18,500 and pocket the $6,000

    Build your own and find out for yourself.

  10. #19

    dsl vs. hbd continued...

    Steve, I think what you did is a misleading exercise. Comparing a based Jetta to fully loaded TDI will of course yield a large difference.

    But comparing apples and apples, you will find that a base Jetta, in Canada (2.5 L gas engine) costs $24975 CDN, whereas the TDI starts at $26750 and is less than the optional 2.0T turbocharged gas engine.

    That's a difference of less than $2000. The gas and TDI Jettas are available with the same option packages so it is possible to build a top-of-the line gas vs. diesel; and the less than $2000 difference remains. When we got our Passat the difference was even less, approximately $500 compared to an automatic gas Passat with the same option level.

    So diesel does not cost a "hefty $6300" premium. In fact the premium for a diesel vs gas Jetta is less than the premium for a hybrid vs top-of-the line non-hybrid Civic.

    The gas Jetta is rated at 7.2 L/100 km on the highway wheras the diesel is rated at 5.1; I drive approximately 50,000 highway km per year. Right now diesel is approx. the same price as regular unleaded where I am (about $1.05/liter). With the gas engine I would burn approx. 3600 liters per year, or roughly $3780. The diesel would use 2550 liters. The fuel savings works out to $1100 per year so in less than two years I recover the TDI's investment. That's assuming I meet government fuel economy ratings, something I've never done with a gas engine but which I have never failed to do with a diesel.

    If you factor in the fact that the TDI has much higher resale value than a gas Jetta, then you can see that for a high miler like myself a TDI makes perfect sense. Someone driving 25,000 km/year, would take about 4 years instead of two to recover the investment on fuel alone, again not factoring in resale value (at last check a TDI engine pulls in a whopping $4000 extra at resale time in the Jetta, and Jetta wagons like ours in particular have outstanding resale value).

    Please, if we're going to compare diesels and hybrids, let's compare apples and apples. Comparing a base gas car with a top-of-the-line diesel and saying the premium for a TDI is $6300 is way misleading when the same engine is available in either top, mid-range or bottom end trims for the same price differential of about $1800 CDN.

  11. #20

    dsl vs. hbd continued...

    Mike you didn't follow my link.
    If you post your own links it would be helpful, rather than possibly number guessing.

    I just tried to verify my numbers using my link above, but looks like their site is temporarily not working.
    When the site begins working agian you will see that I wasn't comparing to a fully loaded TDI.
    When the site comes back on I'll gladly run the numbers for a fully loaded TDI if you wish.

    Surely my last post did compare a baseline Jetta VE to a Jetta TDI and the idea of that post also holds true for the Hybrid Civic- If you want the best dollar for mile car don't buy Hybrid OR Diesel.

    There are many cars available for around $10K
    Many are rated near the EPA for diesel and hybrid as well and pocket the extra money.

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