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  1. #181
    Guest

    Diesel vs. Hybrid: A Point Missed

    Thanks Tngaijin for the reply.

    I agree totally, exept the hybrid batteries isn't large (Prius about the size of a loaf of bread) and Honda about 2cu ft of space including electronics.

    They use Nimh, not Li-Ion. I'm not sure about Li-Ion but Nimh is not toxic.

    Is it GM which is working on hydraulic hybrid?
    This concept seems great to me, and hope production comes to pass soon.

    Personally I think diesel cars are great, and so are gasoline hybrids.
    But both have their own drawbacks too.

    I think practically anything is a real improvement over the "conventional" gasoline vehicle.

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  3. #182
    Guest

    Diesel vs. Hybrid: A Point Missed

    Hello again!

    The EPA actually developed the hydraulic hybrid and last I heard they were working with Ford. What really excited me about hydraulic hybrids is that the unit had a cost of $1,000 USD to create. Add some more to intigrate it and it is still going to cost less than the electric hybrids. What's more, the developers estimate that it will increase your fuel efficiency further than the electric one:

    http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosins...B08-231001.htm

    I love the idea of Hydraulic Hybrid diesels. The longevity of the diesel engine, the low cost of the hydraulic hybrid system, and the ability to use domestically created bio fuels is very appealing.

    I apologize about the battery, I didn't know what was in a Prius as I quickly realized when I went shopping for my first car some three years ago that I couldn't afford one NiMh does indeed look much better than Li-Ion on the waste side.

    Anyways I hope we can get diesel and hybrid drivers together on this one. If we have any chance of ever seeing a car like this it will be because common folks like us have shown enough interest in these cars that automakers can sell them and make some money.

    - Tn

  4. #183
    Guest

    Diesel vs. Hybrid: A Point Missed

    I heard that hybrids need 0w-20 motor oil and that it is twice as expensive as the more typical 5- and 10w-30 (if you can find it).

    Also, does using premium increase your gas mileage in hybrids? Has anyone tried that out?

    ---------------------------------------------

    I think fuel should be taxed like this:

    Fuel Type Federal Tax State Tax

    Regular diesel: 10 cents 5 cents
    B50 Biodiesel 5 cents 2 cents
    B99-B100 no tax no tax
    Kerosene 10 cents 10 cents

    Regular 87 20 cents 20 cents
    Mid-grade 89 20 cents 25 cents
    Premium 93 30 cents 30 cents

    E10 regular 15 cents 15 cents
    E85 regular 5 cents 5 cents
    E10 premium 25 cents 25 cents
    E85 premium 5 cents 10 cents

    Also, only diesel, biodiesel, kero, and E85 would be allowed to self-serve (I'm from NJ). Standard gasoline would require that an attendant pump the gas.


  5. #184
    Guest

    Diesel vs. Hybrid: A Point Missed

    The big problem with hybrid or electric cars is battery life and disposal. The Prius has a whole bank of batteries behind the back seat. They last for X amount of time then must be disposed of and new ones purchased wiping out all savings on fuel and zeroing any environmental savings. Fuel economy on these is misleading. They are measured without heat and air conditioning which require the engine to be running and takes a lot of fuel. A larger engine vehicle can run the air conditioner essentially free, but a small engine must work to pump that air.

  6. #185
    Guest

    Diesel vs. Hybrid: A Point Missed

    I'm not sure that old NiMh batteries zero environmental savings as they seem to be fairly capable of reconditioning. However, whether or not that happens is up to the owner. It will cost a lot however, this is why I think the Hydraulic Hybrid system is exciting as it has the potential to be much cheaper.

    On the subject of oil, TDIs are even worse than hybrids. I remember someone (a fellow TDI owner) quipping that the next batch of TDI engines will probably only use liquid gold in the lubrication system.

  7. #186
    Guest

    Diesel vs. Hybrid: A Point Missed

    "realist",

    I think you are missing something. Please read this:

    The big problem with %pure gas% cars is battery life and disposal. The %pure gas car% has a %huge battery at the front of the hood%. They last for %Y% amount of time then must be disposed of and new ones purchased wiping out %the fact that they don't provide any savings% on fuel and zeroing any environmental savings.

    Do you note the difference between my statement and yours? hint: look between the % % signs. Think about it a bit. We've been dealing for over 60 years with batteries in the automotive industry that don't last nearly as long (Y is about 50,000 miles) as the hybrid traction batteries do. Hybrid batteries will last for over 150,000 (what you call X) miles and they are warranteed as such. They can also be recycled, just like the lead acid ones in today's cars so they will have minimal environmental impact. See, I justified this without even having to mention how much worse lead is for our environment than NiMH batteries (which aren't even classified as a hazardous material)

    Regarding fuel economy:
    A larger engine vehicle runs so inefficiently that you hardly notice how much the air conditioner is using.

    If an engine is so efficient that it uses zero energy to make it move, ALL the gasoline would be used to run the air conditioner so you're really going to notice it.

    What we need is air conditioners to increase their efficiency as much as hybrids increase our propulsion efficiency.

  8. #187
    Guest

    Diesel vs. Hybrid: A Point Missed

    "What we need is air conditioners to increase their efficiency as much as hybrids increase our propulsion efficiency."

    This is a really good point. It seems that a very large improvement could be made in all of the amenities put into cars (except maybe the Insight which seems pretty good to me). I think most people don't think (this is starting to change though since I have seen coverage on the new EPA testing procedures for 2008 that will run most of the electronics during the test) about the fact that the electricity that powers everything in their car comes from the fuel and that means lower MPGs.

    - Tn

  9. #188
    Guest

    Diesel vs. Hybrid: A Point Missed

    As a European, I'm still voting for diesel engines (running on renewable fuel in the future). In my view the advantages are:

    Simpler than hybrids.
    Lighter than hybrids.
    No recycling / chemical disposal issue for the batteries.
    Will run happily on various renewable oil based fuels (the prototype diesel engine was actually designed to run on peanut oil)

    The modern turbodiesel engine is unrecognisable next to those of even a decade ago. They match most petrol (sorry, gas) engines on power output, and the latest developments in common rail injection, staged injection cycles (the fuel for each engine cycle is injected in carefully timed stages rather than all at once) and noise insulation mean the "death rattle" of a diesel is no longer the problem it was.

    A typical 2 litre turbo diesel now makes 130-150 horsepower, and in a Focus-sized car will combine 50 mpg, 0-60 in under 9 seconds, and 130 mph. It will knock out around 200 lb/ft of torque from a little past tickover and pull hard right round to 4,500-5,000 RPM. It will need servicing only every 10,000-20,000 miles and if properly looked after, will do 200,000+ miles without major mechanical problems.

    Hybrids have a real advantage in urban environments where they can sit in queues without any emissions, but I personally can't see how to justify the extra wiring, control systems, battery chemicals, weight and cost for this small advantage. My personal opinion of course.

  10. #189
    Guest

    Diesel vs. Hybrid: A Point Missed

    Hi Dan,

    I am not sure that diesels are lighter than Hybrids. A diesel engine probably is but if you look at the total car, not much is lighter than things like the insight. The battery question is one that pops up a lot. It seems that NiMh batteries aren't really all that bad for the environment. They will however need to be reconditioned or replaced which will be an expensive proposition.

    On the topic of longevity, I love the fact that my TDI is just now considered broke in at 67K miles. I don't think gasoline (petrol) engines are ever going to be as resilient as a diesel. Hopefully I can be proven wrong on this one.

    I think you (you lucky man you) may very well get to see a diesel hybrid with no battery in your area soon. Have a look at BMW's Turbo Steamer:

    http://www.popsci.com/popsci/automot...cbccdrcrd.html

    Also, there is a hydraulic Hybrid system for kinetic energy recapture which may prove to be cheap and effective and not require batteries in development by none other than the EPA:

    http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll...512180348/1148

    Cheers!


  11. #190
    Guest

    Diesel vs. Hybrid: A Point Missed

    all,
    I appologize for the long response.

    Dan,

    I'm not sure why being a European should affect whether diesels or hybrids are better. The last time I checked, the laws of physics worked the same in both places. I'll be in Cambridge, UK all next week and will re-verify ;-)

    Seriously though I do recognize that there are some infrastructure and technology differences between the two continents that may affect decisions.

    For one:

    The US has far less protected manufacturing interests, Asia has even less, hence they are much better able to take advantage of truly better technology without as much backlash from politically strong incumbents. Of course, it seems that the US car manufacturers aren't going to roll over without a fight either
    (see www.whokilledtheelectriccar.com).

    It isn't clear to me that the planet has enough bio-fuel raising capability to feed it's 'need' unless we get MUCH more efficient vehicles. Clearly Europe doesn't have the bio-fuel capacity and the US is questionable. South America probably can but it will require clearing all traces of rain forest. Adding an electric drive train is the only real way that I see to make huge breakthroughs here.

    Your other fundamental comments aren't totally correct either:

    1. Simpler than hybrids: There really isn't anything much simpler than a simple constant-speed diesel, electric motor, batteries, and a solid-state electronic controller. There isn't anything much more complex than a transmission (arguably the most complex mechanical consumer product ever), a variable valve timing ICE (Internal Combustion Engines), Emissions controls (sensitive sensors in a horrible environment), Diesel or Petrol (we can speak English if we really try hard :-) refining, or turbochargers.

    2. Lighter than hybrids: It is true that battery/electric propulsion is heavier than ICE, however, this is partially offset by the regenerative braking that recovers some of the energy lost in acceleration of a heavier vehicle. I'll grant that the additional weight does cause more rolling resistance and the regeneration is not 100% efficient (30 - 50% roundtrip are more realistic). The electric efficiency in acceleration, however makes a huge difference.


    Simpler than hybrids.

    3. No recycling / chemical disposal issue for the batteries: The PbA starter batteries in ICE vehicles is a huge problem already but it has been solved. NiMH or Li-Ion batteries look like they are just as easy to dispose of and they will last for at least 150,000 miles (~200,000 km) before they need recycling. PbA starter batteries need replacing around 50,000 miles (although I concede that we don't need as many of them)

    and let me rewrite your statement:

    " typical 2 litre turbo diesel now makes 130-150 horsepower, and in a Focus-sized car will combine 50 mpg, 0-60 in under 9 seconds, and 130 mph. It will knock out around 200 lb/ft of torque from a little past tickover and pull hard right round to 4,500-5,000 RPM. It will need servicing only every 10,000-20,000 miles and if properly looked after, will do 200,000+ miles without major mechanical problems. "

    to it's direct electric equivalent:

    Modern electric motors can generate 200-250 horsepower and in Scion-sized cars will combine 100+ mpg, 0-60 in under 7 seconds (under 4 sec in some documented cases), and 130 mph (although most electronically limit much lower), It will knock out around 182 ft lbs torque from zero to 6000 rpm (the torque is most needed closer to zero than 6000 rpms). It will need servicing every 50,000 miles (lube), and if properly looked after, after a battery change at around 150,000 to 200,000 miles, will last ... oops! we don't know how long they will last but the only moving parts are rotary bearings (really reliable and easily replaceable) and low temperatures (less than 120 degrees F). Sources: (www.wrightspeed.com and www.acpropulsion.com)

    Overall, diesels and ICE in general are totally outclassed by modern electric drive trains. The main thing that the ICE provides is the ability to run off of transportable (yet expensive) liquid fuel and carry more energy onboard.

    I feel that you are looking at today's infant production hybrids as representative of what can be done. This is sort of like comparing a model T with a modern Honda Accord. There's really no comparison. If you insist on only looking at what exists on the road today, take a look at the websites I mentioned above and look at what is possible. Also, remember that all the technologies in these vehicles are as mass-producable or more so than ICE's and transmissions.

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