+ Reply to Thread
Page 26 of 28 FirstFirst ... 16 24 25 26 27 28 LastLast
Results 251 to 260 of 277
  1. #251
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    0

    diesel yield vs gasoline yield

    I did a little digging after reading your post. A federal doe site cites 7 gallons of diesel fuel per barrel and 20 gallons of gasoline per barrel. as to the tax, this varies from state to state, many tax both the same. My state of pa taxes diesel 8 cents a gallon higher than gas.
    I hadnt been aware of that prior to your post.

    I still maintain though that a large scale shift to diesel will overtax the supply chain and drive prices higher, much higher. for most drivers it will mostly be about the cost, not the environment and not the fact that we are financing terrorism
    It should not be "diesel vs hybrid". the federal program from the nineties had a target of 80 mpg and were well on the way to meeting it combining diesel and hybrid technology and other improvements developed jointly by the big three. Unfortunately Bush dismantled this early on, believing that more drilling was the answer. Detroit threw away their early lead in developing the car of the future and ceded their future to the Japanese.

  2. Remove Advertisements
    HybridCars.com
    Advertisements
     

  3. #252
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    0
    The matter to me hangs on one simple question, "Am I able and willing to run on a high blend (50% or better) of biodiesel?" I've run my Jetta TDI on 100% Biodiesel for 45k miles now. Yes, I had to go out of my way to fuel up every week and a half until a station was installed near my home. Yes I've been paying $3 a gallon the entire time. But it was worth it to me to help support an emerging alternative fuel.

    That's great for you. And I applaud you for supporting alternative fuel. However, the biodiesel that is available for most people is at best B20 even if when one goes out of the way. What do you do when you take a long trip where 100% biodiesel isn't available?

    So I ask all you politically-aware hybrid owners...how much petroleum do you use? How much (net)* CO2 do you pump into the air? For me the answer is nearly zero. And that's why I drive a diesel.

    I use about 360 gallons of gasoline a year carrying at least 2 people at all times. I think that's about 4-5 tons or so of CO2, not counting the small amount of CO2 saved from the 10% ethanol mixed with my gasoline. I've read that 100% biodiesel is about 78% carbon-neutral. In the city, I figure I'd get about 35-40 mpg in a Golf TDI (more likely I'd need a Passat though to match my Prius' carry capacity, so the mpg would be lower.) So I probably would put out less CO2 with a Golf TDI, but I'd be putting out more of other pollutants, like NOx. And your Golf's CO2 output isn't nearly zero. I think the hybrid is a better choice for the city, and it does pretty good on the highway. So overall, it is a much better choice for me.

    Hybrids are cool, but the actual mileage gain from the hybrid tech itself isn't worth the cost, to me. The best hybrids now get their mileage from other techs that any car could adopt, such as auto-shutoff, lighter materials and the mileage display.

    I don't agree with this. I do believe that regenerative breaking significantly improves gas mileage; especially in the city. And the Prius was less expensive than the Golf TDI; in my city anyway. And that doesn't even include the tax credit I'll receive.

    I get 42mpg and I don't put one (net)* ounce of CO2 in the air. I drive 50 miles a day which means for the last three years I've personnally prevented a whole lot of CO2 from going in the air and a whole lot of money from going overseas.

    You have prevented a lot of CO2 emissions. I think this is awesome, but I get 49-54 mpg in the city (even in the winter) and 45 on the highway burning E10. You have prevented a lot of CO2 from going into the air, but consider the oil used to harvest the crops for your biodiesel. And the fertilizer used to grow the feedstock (and the pesticides, etc.) You do put net CO2 into the air; just not as much as other vehicles.

    Yes I'm a smug, self-satisfied bastard! And you can be one too with a diesel! But check out the new crop of cars coming from Europe since they improved diesel standards in the US. In the next year or so the diesel market should get really interesting.

    I can't wait for the new crop of diesel cars. I'll be checking them out. But until diesel emission controls are a reality, there isn't even a discussion about pollution to be had comparing hybrids and diesels unless you're burning 100% biodiesel; unless perhaps you live out in the sticks.
    Bottom line though, I'll confess, is that even though I prefer to drive a diesel (I used to drive a 300TD), there are no vehicles available that come even close to the reliability of a hybrid car from Toyota or Honda. I tried to convince myself to buy a VW TDI, but I just couldn't get past the 'beautiful loser' status of these cars. If you aren't in the shop all the time with a Golf or Jetta, you're one of the lucky ones.

    * All CO2 produced by burning biodiesel was extracted from the air by the plants used to make it.

    If only this was so. You should convert your TDI to a Greasecar!

  4. #253
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by iamsancho69 View Post
    I did a little digging after reading your post. A federal doe site cites 7 gallons of diesel fuel per barrel and 20 gallons of gasoline per barrel.
    That's right. We can't get enough gasoline out of a barrel of oil by straight fractionation, so we crack heavier oil fractions into gasoline. In general, a barrel of oil has more heavy fractions than light, and gasoline is one of the lighter fractions. That we get more gasoline out of a barrel of oil is because that's where the demand is. We could more easily crack heavier residues into diesel (a little heavier than gasoline) and reverse that ratio -- but unlike Europe, the demand for gasoline is higher here.

    as to the tax, this varies from state to state, many tax both the same. My state of pa taxes diesel 8 cents a gallon higher than gas.
    And the fed tax on diesel is higher as well.

    I still maintain though that a large scale shift to diesel will overtax the supply chain and drive prices higher, much higher.
    You might be right, although I don't know why that would be the case when it isn't for gasoline.

    It should not be "diesel vs hybrid". the federal program from the nineties had a target of 80 mpg and were well on the way to meeting it combining diesel and hybrid technology and other improvements developed jointly by the big three. Unfortunately Bush dismantled this early on, believing that more drilling was the answer. Detroit threw away their early lead in developing the car of the future and ceded their future to the Japanese.
    Quite right. If Detroit hadn't bailed on PNGV maybe they wouldn't be bleeding red by the billions. It's not like the writing hasn't been on the wall for years. The Administration's excuse was diesel emissions, but of course if they'd been genuinely serious about that they would have pushed ULSD rollout earlier, not try to hold it up. We might even have had T2B5 diesel-hybrids available from domestic manufacturer's now -- but no, that would make too much sense!

  5. #254
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    0

    This Article Doesn't mention anything regarding ULSD

    The original article fails to mention EPA's new standards for Ultra Low Sulphur Diesel. My impression was that this new diesel fuel standard will allow for diesel vehicles to be cleaner burning, eliminating all of the cons associated with Diesel vehicle's dirty reputation, which would make them more efficient then gas and cleaner. Does anyone have a feel for how ULSD will effect diesel vehicles in the US? I would think diesels would again be back in the limelight as they are in Europe. Now, couple that with the potential of homegrown biodiesel and we have a revolution on our hands...thoughts??

  6. #255
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by bl3_99 View Post
    The original article fails to mention EPA's new standards for Ultra Low Sulphur Diesel. My impression was that this new diesel fuel standard will allow for diesel vehicles to be cleaner burning, eliminating all of the cons associated with Diesel vehicle's dirty reputation, which would make them more efficient then gas and cleaner. Does anyone have a feel for how ULSD will effect diesel vehicles in the US? I would think diesels would again be back in the limelight as they are in Europe.
    It won't make them cleaner burning, what it will do is allow the exhaust to be treated so that tailpipe emissions are much cleaner. Engine out emissions for diesel compared to gasoline has higher PM by mass, comparable if not lower PM by number (gasoline PM is in much smaller size fractions), comparable (probably slightly lower) NOx, and much lower hydrocarbons, semivolatiles, and CO. But gasoline exhaust is treated and diesel exhaust is not: the catalytic converter reduces gasoline NOx to N2 and oxidizes CO, HCs, etc, so gasoline tailpipe emissions have much lower NOx and comparably low CO and VOC. There are ways to treat diesel NOx but they are poisoned by sulfur (think of what leaded gas does to a gas cat): ULSD allows for diesel cats. It will also allow for particulate filters, which would otherwise clog up from the sulfur. Actually, PFs are a good idea for gasoline engines as well. The real issue with ULSD is WHY DID THEY TAKE SO LONG?? Why didn't they take out the sulfur when they stopped adding lead to gas?

    Now, couple that with the potential of homegrown biodiesel and we have a revolution on our hands...thoughts??
    If by "that" you mean a hybrid, sign me up! Especially if it's a plugin. I'm already on board with the biodiesel part.

  7. #256
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    0

    Another missed point diesel vs diesel

    Consider how much more energy is required to manufacture a hybrid vs diesel. My understanding is it is considerable. #2 how long will the batteries last and the gas engine last vs the diesel. Diesels can go 300-500,000 miles. Where's the gasser that will last that long? Replacing a car every 200,000 vs 400,00? Well you do the energy math.

  8. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by optiontdi View Post
    Consider how much more energy is required to manufacture a hybrid vs diesel. My understanding is it is considerable. #2 how long will the batteries last and the gas engine last vs the diesel. Diesels can go 300-500,000 miles. Where's the gasser that will last that long? Replacing a car every 200,000 vs 400,00? Well you do the energy math.
    Optiontdi,
    I appreciate your focusing on some of the key issues but I think your facts/implications are a bit pessimistic. They electric drivetrain of a hybrid is a simple thing, as is the interconnect between it and the Internal Combustion Engine (ICE). Although I don't have the exact numbers either, I'd be very surprised if the energy required is much more than the heavy transmission of a pure ICE. The batteries are light materials and should require a whole lot less energy to make than steel or aluminum engines.
    As far as the vehicle lifetime goes, today's wimpy hybrids haven't been around long enough to develop real longevity statistics but look at the technology:
    - The electric drivetrain does most of the "heavy lifting" in a hybrid during accelerating, hill climbing, etc. This is the activity that hurts the ICE the most and it is offloaded.
    - The electric motor only has 1 moving part (a shaft) and it is easy to provide simple bearings that should last a long time.
    - The electric motor is a much cooler system so it won't cause as much material stress as a hot ICE, nor will it stress a cooling system as much.
    - Batteries while only good for maybe 150,000 miles, can be recycled just as the starter batteries are today. They will probably need replacing a few times in your 400,000 mile lifetime, just as your tires, alternator, water pump, oil, belts, etc. Today, they're a lot more expensive than these other things but with large scale mass production and recycling, battery costs will only go down.

    Of course, a diesel hybrid would probably be the ultimate in ICE powered propulsion. I just hope someone makes them soon.

  9. #258
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by TDI_STEve View Post

    * All CO2 produced by burning biodiesel was extracted from the air by the plants used to make it.
    I don't think it's a zero sum game...the CO2 you put out burning biodiesel is vastly more than what the plants used to create it took in.

  10. #259
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    0

    Why buy a Hybrid when you have diesel?

    Diesel vs. Hybrid . . . what is the right choice? Hybrids still use gas, a fossil fuel! Also, I guess it all depends on where you live too. If you live in a climate such as California, hybrids may be OK . . . but they still use gas! I live in western Canada and it can get bloody cold here. Temperatures can range from +30 and hotter in the summer to -30 and colder in the winter (thatís just air temp if itís windy you have to factor in the wind chill which makes it even colder) and thatís Celsius not Fahrenheit.

    But is a hybrid vehicle good in the climate I live in? My opinion is, no it isnít! Winters here can be brutally cold or warm and mild. Freezing temps are hard on batteries, ask anyone who has had to wait for hours to get a boost in -30 Celsius weather with a wind chill factored in to bring it to -40 C. Batteries take a beating here! When I was shopping for a new vehicle and asked about replacing the battery in a hybrid, I was quoted $3000 to replacement it and that this would have to be done every 3 - 4 years . . . in the climate we live in. This was someone who was trying to get me to buy a new hybrid truck that was coming onto the market! True or not that is a big expense on top of the already high price of vehicles these days. If we are talking about environmental impact, what is a battery? It has acid and lead (unless they have come up with an environmentally friendly combination) both are toxic and not good for the environment and if it ever blows up . . . have you seen what a car battery does when it explodes? Thatís why they have warnings on them. What process do they use to recycle a battery? Whatís done with the acid, the lead and battery casing? Do they get cleaned and reused or is the acid just dumped and are the lead plates recycled? Do they have to clean the lead plates before reusing them and if so what do they use, another toxic chemical? Do they melt the lead down, using an already depleting energy resource. These are questions that we should all ask before we think hybrids are environmentally friendly . . . Hybrids have big batteries!!!

    I downsized from a SUV (I didnít need that size of vehicle any longer) to a smaller vehicle. The choice I had to make was do I go gas, hybrid or diesel. Hybrids use less gas than other gas vehicles, maybe. But less than a diesel? The only diesel car available here was from one auto maker (originally European) or a Heavy Duty 3/4 ton truck that I could move a building with or the Jeep.

    Why did I go diesel and not hybrid? Simple really, the ability to use bio-diesel instead of dino-diesel. Bio-diesel is produced from vegetable or soya oil, not fossil fuels. Keeps farms in business and the people who would rather work on a farm than in a stuffy office employed! You can even recycled and use deep fryer oil from fast food places and restaurants. Thereís also the fuel economy. I fill up every 2 weeks now instead of 2 times a week. A similar hybrid vehicle, to my vehicle, is EPA rated at 4.7/100 km city and highway. My diesel vehicle was rated at 6.5/100 km city and 4.6/100 km highway. I admit the hybrid is better in the city but the diesel is better on the highway and I do a lot of highway driving. Diesel is more environmental in the long run, with lower emissions than a gas engine and with bio diesel even lower (did I mention that there is a slight improvement in fuel economy and performance with bio-diesel mixed in? Also with the diesel engine (recommended maintenance by the auto maker) my oil changes are every 8000 km instead of every 5-6000 km with a gas engine. Further lessening the impact on the environment.

    I have to say that I am disappointed with the lack of diesel powered vehicles in North America and find it appalling! The oil companies have the consumer by the, you know what, and all you can get are gas sucking engines except for the heavy duty trucks and few smaller vehicles. If I wanted to get a small truck, a crossover SUV or a compact car, no matter who the auto maker is, I would have to go to Europe, order it there and have it shipped back to Canada. Same auto makers, different market!!! So why are we as consumers not screaming about this? Itís time our governments did something.

    Both bio-diesel and hybrid technology are still fairly new but which is really more environmental friendly? I think that maybe if they had a hybrid that ran on bio-diesel then we are getting somewhere.

  11. #260
    Guest

    bio-diesel hybrid... music

    bio-diesel hybrid... music to my ears. your a genuis and i think you found the solution

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts