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  1. #81

    Diesel vs. Hybrid: A Point Missed

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  3. #82

    Diesel vs. Hybrid: A Point Missed

    Au contraire, I think my 1996 Passat TDI is in greate shape.
    Starting at -15 below zzero is phenominal. Many newer gas cars don'ts start at those temps.

    I live in MIchigan. Colder than .............................
    fill iin for naughty answer)

    In regard to the VW Lupo diesel, the car has been sold n Europe for many years. It is a bare bones car.
    But it has had the shut off when stopping before hybrids were known.

    The Lupo is rated at seventy miles per gallon. I remember reading about an around the world rally for mpg.
    The Lupo got an astonishing 90+ mpg.

    I really enjoy all this cheering for diesels.

  4. #83

    Diesel vs. Hybrid: A Point Missed

    Thanks wxman for the links.
    Some things to research.

    Funny how KBB's numbers are so far off of what this editor claims:
    They claim "ALG data show patterns similar to Kelley Blue Book's"

    While if you research KBB *yourself* the figures are much different.

    The dieselforcast article is a good one and I think is correct in that I've also researched and found that diesels depreciate at about the same rate as regular gasoline cars.
    Hybrid resale however is much higher.

  5. #84

    Diesel vs. Hybrid: A Point Missed

    Bjorn lives on Long Island, NY, but is a transplant
    from Norway where I grew up working in the
    forest and on a farm using diesel tractors and
    forestry machines. Everything ran on diesels.
    My brother run the farm and forest these days and
    his Massey Ferguson tractors, Valmet forest machine, Volvo combine, MB autos and MB truck
    are all diesels. In the winter the temperature can be down to minus mid twenty and they all start
    w/o heating provided battery and glowplugs are
    in good order. The only thing he has operating
    on gasoline is a BMW motorcycle, but I dont think
    he use it on days like that..lol.
    The term " in Europe" is misused here in the US
    because many things vary quite a bit from country
    to another. In Norway cars sales are now about
    50-50 gas/diesel and diesels are not selling so
    well because diesel fuel is abou 10% cheaper, but
    rather due to the almost double mpg, low maintenance, longer between oil changes and
    a low depriciation. In some european countries the diesel is even cheaper and in others higher.
    As far as depriciation of a VW TDI it can be useful
    to check KBB for prices on a used VW TDI versus
    the gasoline version of the same car. The readers
    will find that diesel VW reatains a much better
    value. Check used car prices for a TDI then try
    to ask the seller to reduce the price. They will hang up on you. So I have to stay with my 2002 problem free TDI Jetta.
    Any other TDI owners in my area?
    I started another discussion as well.
    Read my next reply.

  6. #85

    Diesel vs. Hybrid: A Point Missed

    My next discussion was "fuel injection"
    Click on discussion

  7. #86

    Diesel vs. Hybrid: A Point Missed

    Seem like I have more things on my mind.
    Another couple of great advantages of owning a
    diesel car.
    It does not catch fire in an accident since the diesel
    fuel does not give off fumes when exposed to normal
    outdoor temperatures. Good to know when one is
    trapped in a car and smell diesel from a leaking
    tank rather than explosive gasoline.
    Secondly diesel can be stored safely at home just
    like heating oil here in the northeast wher many home
    owners use it for heating the homes.
    A friend of mine has two 275gls tanks in the garage
    filled with diesel. If we all had diesel cars and 500 gls
    of diesel fuel stored at home we would not have to
    run to the gas stations any more and if Opec boycott
    shipments they will starve themselves before we
    run out of diesel. 500gls X 40mpg=20000miles of
    driving before we empty the tanks. That will be
    more than one year of boycott for Opec. By that time
    they will be begging us to buy their oil.
    Our auto insurance laws should change as well.
    Insurance should cover the car being operated rather
    than cars owned by a family. This will make it more
    affordable to own a fuel frugal car (like an electric
    car for commute). Most people commute less than
    20miles and we could leave the large car at home
    while commuting. With todays chip technology and
    sattelite tracking the insured would be able to use
    only one car at a time and raher than paying 2
    premiums one could cover 2 cars.

  8. #87

    Diesel vs. Hybrid: A Point Missed

    "The dieselforcast article is a good one and I think is correct in that I've also researched and found that diesels depreciate at about the same rate as regular gasoline cars. Hybrid resale however is much higher. "

    Not in Canada. I checked the Black Book site for wholesale trade-in value of your car. I looked at the HCH, Toyta Prius, VW Jetta diesel, VW Jetta gas, Honda Accord (both manual and auto trans for the Accord to give it a fair chance; manual trans only for the Jetta). Here are the results for the 2003 m.y. with 60,000 km on the odometer:

    Price new Avg resale Avg depreciation
    HCH $28,000 $14,350 $13,650
    Prius $30,000 $19,950 $10,050
    Jetta D $26,000 $17,761 $8,240
    Jetta G $24,500 $13,261 $11,240
    Accord M $25,000 $15,075 $9,925
    Accord A $26,000 $15,980 $10,021
    (new price is approx, +/-500, trim levels were GLS and LX for the Jetta and Accord)

    As you can see in this batch of popular hybrids vs. gas vs. diesel, the HCH has the WORST depreciation, the Prius comes in 4th, and the Jetta TDI is far and away the best of the bunch. In fact I did this research prior to buying our Jetta TDI and it was one of the deciding factors. Compared to the gas Jetta, the $1500 diesel option is paid back twice over if you trade after three years. That's even before factoring in the fuel savings. Even compared to one of the most popular mid-sized cars with a good reputation for resale, the Accord, the Jetta diesel wins. I traded in a '99.5 Jetta TDI that was three years old; I paid $24,900 for that car and got $17,000 in trade-in.

    What my research shows is that the Prius is comparable in depreciation to a conventional gas car; for some reason the market hates the '03 Civic hybrid. The diesel is tops.

    I suspect a big factor with the hybrids is the risk factor for new technology. I'm sure they will improve as the public gains confidence that buying a hybrid won't result in thousands of $ in repairs during a normal lifespan. Plus we have yet to establish what the normal lifespan is for the hybrids.

  9. #88

    Diesel vs. Hybrid: A Point Missed

    Wow! $28K Canadian MSP for a 2003 HCH?
    Geeze I think I'd head South for car purchases.

    I got my 2004 for MSRP at $18.5K + tax,tag etc.

  10. #89

    Diesel vs. Hybrid: A Point Missed

    Mike G got it right. A VW TDI tops in used car value.
    I suspect the higher the mileage is the more favorable
    the trade in price is for the diesel because of their
    longevity and that a hybrid is getting closer to a
    possible battery replacement. Rarely do we hear that
    hybrid cars run out of electric power going up in
    mountain passes. After climbing a few thousand feet
    they are running on the gasoline engine only.
    A concern for people who travel in some states.

  11. #90

    Diesel vs. Hybrid: A Point Missed

    Note the prices are in Canadian $. To get the US $ equivalent multiply by 0.85. That's $23.8k US for the HCH, still way higher than what you paid.

    I think the reason the market hates the HCH in Canada is that you can get a basic Civic LX that still gets good fuel economy for a gas car, for thousands less. There is no way you will make up the price differential for the HCH over the conventional HC, based on fuel economy alone. In fact it is a losing proposition, from an ecnomic standpoint. So the market says "there's no way this car is worth more than a Civic LX at trade in" and the price is in fact close to what an LX gets at trade-in.

    The Prius on the other hand is its own unique product occupying its own niche especially the newer style. That helps its resale I think.

    Honda got the message and the new '06 HCH is about $2000 cheaper in Canada for a far better car than the previous Civic; that still however makes it about $4000 more than an LX sedan. On the other hand the TDI option on the Jetta is now about $1800 more. So the TDI has a faster payback and it is reasonable to expect a return on your investment on fuel economy alone. Even a 25,000 km/year driver can get his/her money back on the TDI option within the a few years; I get my money back in less than a year because I'm a high mileage driver (55,000 km/year)

    I still maintain that the cheapest, most effective way to reduce dependence on fossil fuels and to reduce CO2 emissions is large-scale market penetration by diesels. It's proven highly effective in Europe and the modern diesels are not the lung-chokers that the early ones were. I travel frequently to Europe and find the cities no worse, and in fact in many cases significantly better, than N. American cities, simply because Europeans are more conditioned to use mass transit for trips to the city.

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