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  1. #81
    Guest

    Hybrid vs. Diesel Debate

    Hi,
    These posts are very interesting. I drive a Nissan Maxima SE 2003 6sp 255hp and get 22.8Mpg on mostly city driving and shifting gears at 2,000 Rpm except for a few burst of energy where I redline it. I thought that diesels were slow which most are. In June 2005 I went to moroso drag strip in West Palm Beach Florida. My best quarter mile with 28k miles and worn tires to the point of bald was 15.2 93 mph. That same night there was a Ford F250 or F350 diesel truck with lift kit and it looked really big on the drag strip. The truck ran 14.3 now can somebody tell me how that is possible. I personally could not believe what I was seeing. That truck ran faster than the Lighting version of their truck. I don't know where that came from because the stock truck is supposed to be a 0-60 around 10 seconds. My question is can they make the VW Golf, Jetta and Passat diesel run that fast?

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  3. #82
    Guest

    Hybrid vs. Diesel Debate

    "My question is can they make the VW Golf, Jetta and Passat diesel run that fast? "

    Yes.

    There are European versions of VWs that run sub-10 second 0-60s. A Passat TDI (N. America spec) is about 10 seconds to 60 mph. That may seem "slow" but the real world isn't about 0-60 mph and 1/4 mile runs.

    A Passat TDI is 134 hp but pumps out 247 ft-lb of torque, which starts at 1900 rpm and lasts up to about 3000 rpm. Well, isn't that just where most cars run in the real world? Mid-range passing power is where this car really shines. It's a superb highway car. The torque also means it just marches up hills without a downshift.

    Even our 100 hp Jetta wagon holds its own. Torque is 177 ft-lb, in the same rpm range as our Passat. It's actually more peak torque than a 1.8T (though the 1.8T holds onto it longer).

    These cars do not feel "slow" in real-world driving, if you learn how to drive them (i.e. use shift-points optimized for the torque and not the hp. characteristics of the cars).

    You can also chip these things to get close to 300 ft-lb (Passat). Euro versions of the TDI are up to 170 hp for a 2-liter 4-cyl! The V10 TDI is over 300 hp and 500 ft-lb of torque!

    Oh, and the Merceds CDI diesel, available in the E320, does sub-7 seconds 0-60. Forget the HP and torque numbers but they're around 200/300, and the thing is allegedly FASTER than the gasoline model. It is available in N. America.

    Yet our Passat can deliver a consistent 5.7 l/100 km at "normal" highway speeds. I can get 6.5 l/100 km cruising at 130 km/h. For performance AND economy, modern diesels have a lot going for them.

  4. #83
    Guest

    Hybrid vs. Diesel Debate

    Metric conversions:

    5.7 l/100 km = 42 mpg US/50 mpg imperial
    6.5 l/100 km = 36 mpg US/44 mpg imperial

    My lifetime average fuel economy in the Passat, in close to 40,000 miles of driving, has been 36 mpg without paying too much attention to maximizing fuel economy.

  5. #84
    Guest

    Hybrid vs. Diesel Debate

    There sure are alot of choices out there.

    Passat TDI 134HP 247ft-lb.
    Autobytel tested the 2006 model:
    http://www.autobytel.com/content/sha...cle_id_int/758

    They measured 0-60 in 7.4 seconds with a MT. They averaged only 23MPG in their mostly highway driving while most people over at Edmunds report an average of the low 30'sMPG.

    Accord Hybrid is rated 240hp and 212ft-lb. Most people get about the same MPG as the Passat. 0-60 is about 7.5 seconds with the AT.

    HCH is rated 110hp and 123ft-lb. Most people get upper 40's to mid 50's MPG in the AT. 0-60 is about 11 seconds.
    Personally I drive more carefully in regards to efficiency and last summer averaged around 65MPG in my '04 HCH. My longest tank was 68.9MPG and 941 miles. The recent cold has dropped it to around 60.

    I can lock in cruise control at 70 and get around 47MPG, locked in at 65 around 50 and locked at 60 gets around 55MPG.

    How about Prius?
    143hp, 377ft lb. Most folks get about 50MPG.
    0-60 is about 10 seconds with its AT.

    For me, If speed were more important than economy I'd choose the Honda Accord Hybrid. 0-60 is about the same Passat TDI and you get a much nicer car with Honda's well known craftsmanship and reliability and the fuel is cheaper.


  6. #85
    Guest

    Hybrid vs. Diesel Debate

    >Passat TDI 134HP 247ft-lb.
    >Autobytel tested the 2006 model:
    >http://www.autobytel.com/content/shared/articles/t...

    Um, unless I mis-read that article, they didn't test the TDI version (which isn't avaiable in the US right now), but the 2.0T version, which I believe is a regular gasoline engine. So the mpg rating you're comparing isn't for the TDI deisel engine.

  7. #86
    Guest

    Hybrid vs. Diesel Debate

    That's correct, the 2006 model is not available with a TDI engine.

    My numbers are for a 2005 TDI, and represent real-world driving conditions over 60,000 km of driving, including Canadian winters and summers.

    Our Jetta wagon does even better, and can turn sub-5 liters/100 km results if driven at the speed limit (about 48 mpg). However, it has a manual gearbox and I'm lazy, I prefer to drive our automatic Passat in heavy stop-and-go traffic.

  8. #87
    Guest

    Hybrid vs. Diesel Debate

    "For me, If speed were more important than economy I'd choose the Honda Accord Hybrid. 0-60 is about the same Passat TDI and you get a much nicer car with Honda's well known craftsmanship and reliability and the fuel is cheaper."

    I have owned both Honda Accords (previous generation V6 and 4-cyl). I have also extensively test driven the current generation. There is no dispute that it is a fine car. Whether it is a "nicer" car than the Passat is somewhat in the eye of the beholder (the new 2006 Passat is a gorgeous car, BTW, but it isn't available as a TDI over here yet).

    Whether it is a *better* car is another matter. The First of all, though average reliability numbers are no doubt better on the Accord, the Passat is VW's most reliable model in N. America. Moreover Hondas are not completely trouble free. They're well known to have serious problems with automatic transmissions for example; my last Accord, a 2002, required two returns to the dealer for minor problems (disc brake backing plate rubbint against wheel; replace seat track, hard starting in very cold weather). My Passat, in 60,000 km of driving has had exactly 0 problems and 0 need for a return to the dealer other than normal service intervals every 16,000 km.

    When it comes to driving dynamics though, the Accord simply isn't in the same league. The Accord is very nice in typical N. American, 70 mph driving. The Passat is rock stable and is capable, in true German fashion, of safely sustaining very high cruise speeds, and at 100 mph it feels rock solid and secure. The N. American Accords, while firmer than a Toyota Camry, are too soft for that kind of driving.

    According to the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety, the Passat has the third lowest overall death rate after the Mercedes E-class and Toyota Highlander. It is the safest in its category, with the Honda Accord ranked in 6th place in the same category, just behind the Hyundai Sonata. The death-rate in the Accord is approx. 3 times higher than the Passat.

    In terms of features, the Passat has the Accord beat hands-down. They're too numerous to list here.

    My own tastes lean towards European driving characteristics; for that I am well-served by the Passat.

    The Accord is certainly a fine car. To say it is "nicer" is in the eye of the beholder; the styling of the Accord is more "luxurious", whereas the Passat has typically severe German styling (though the new 2006 is a radical departure from this). It certainly has numerous advantages over an Accord that make it a fine choice as well (and recommended by Consumer Reports), not the least of which was, with the last version, the TDI engine.

  9. #88
    Guest

    Hybrid vs. Diesel Debate

    While "The eye of the beholder" is true regarding whether someone prefers green over blue, market share is a great indicator of general indicators of value...the Passat is among the bottom while Accord sails along the top.

    It's unfortunate that your 2002 Accord had a couple of minor problems and your certainly correct that no MFG's are trouble-free....
    But anyone can do a google search on reliability and quality to find the scales severely tilted against VW.

    Crash rating-
    I searched for the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety but couldn't find a link rating specific auto fatalities. Could you post a link to that info?
    I found other sites with crash ratings and both cars fared about the same-excellent safe vehicles.

    Features-
    You mentioned the Passat's features and advantages over the Accord (Hybrid) is "Too numerous to list".
    Can you suggest some of those which are most important to you?

    You mentioned that Consumer Reports rates the Passat over the Accord.
    Can you post a link for that?

    Motor trend choose the 2006 Honda Civic, not Passat for car of the year:
    http://www.motortrend.com/features/n...r_of_the_year/

    They looked for
    "Mastery and innovation in engineering, technology, design, safety and packaging, class-leading levels of performance, style and functionality"

    It went to Honda, not VW, even though the Passat was included in their tests.

  10. #89
    Guest

    Hybrid vs. Diesel Debate

    "It's unfortunate that your 2002 Accord had a couple of minor problems and your certainly correct that no MFG's are trouble-free....
    But anyone can do a google search on reliability and quality to find the scales severely tilted against VW. "

    I agree in general with your assesment of VW overall but the Passat has consitently been their highest performer. And certainly if you rate troubles, although it is anecdotal as evidence, my Passat has had exactly 0, my last Accord 3 or 4 (albeit minor).

    "Crash rating-
    I searched for the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety but couldn't find a link rating specific auto fatalities. Could you post a link to that info?
    I found other sites with crash ratings and both cars fared about the same-excellent safe vehicles. "

    Here is the link:

    http://www.hwysafety.org/news/2005/iihs_sr_031505.pdf

    "Features-
    You mentioned the Passat's features and advantages over the Accord (Hybrid) is "Too numerous to list".
    Can you suggest some of those which are most important to you?"

    Here are a few: one-touch up AND down for both front windows; electronic stability control (not just traction control; the new Accord may have this, but with VW, it is available even on the cheapest Golf sold in Canada, the CL); ability to close sunroof and windows with key; trip computer (I imagine the hybrid would have this though); standard fog lights (a must in my climate); a better suspension for high-speed driving; front, side and side curtain airbags; the last Accord I had required a prop rod to hold the hood open, and the Passat has a gas strut (even our Jetta); the car comes equipped with a full-size spare tire instead of a ridiculous donut spare; firmer steering; air conditioned glove box (great for keeping drinks or your sandwich for lunch cold); split fold down rear seats (my last Accord would only fold down in one piece).

    "You mentioned that Consumer Reports rates the Passat over the Accord.
    Can you post a link for that? "

    That's not exactly what I said: I said it rates the 2005 Passat as "recommended". It gives the same rating to the Accord.

    "Motor trend choose the 2006 Honda Civic, not Passat for car of the year:
    http://www.motortrend.com/features/news/112_news05... "

    I have discontinued reading car magazines, I find they are pointless from a consumer standpoint and instead are basically paper showrooms for car manufacturers. Motor Trend has also picked some real dogs as "car of the year". The Chevrolet Vega comes to mind.

    "They looked for
    "Mastery and innovation in engineering, technology, design, safety and packaging, class-leading levels of performance, style and functionality" "

    I won't buy a car with a digital speedometer. Hate them. But that's just me, I'm old fashioned :-)


  11. #90
    Guest

    Hybrid vs. Diesel Debate

    The future of automotive probably is in diesel hybrid as best combination of efficiency and power management.
    Right now the best design are diesel engine with electric generator and direct electric drive (as some body mention before - no transmission , no differential ..that take up to 50% of required energy). That idea is already implemented in e-traction bus (http://www.e-traction.com/). This bus getting like 18 MPG on highway and 15MPG in city!!!
    Passenger car is at list 4-5 time lighter so You can imagine what millage You could get.
    It is good to mention that best hybrid buses in US do not making more then 5-6 MPG in city and cost 2x what the e-traction will($300 000 vs. 600 000).
    The question is what next:
    I think that all cars will have 4 wheel direct electric drive (on each wheel own motor), and instead of bank of batteries... high capacitance capacitor. I see that there are in production some models already. The advantage of using capacitor is weight (much lighter), quick charge & discharge. Disadvantage: relatively short time of energy storage.
    I so on the net that there is capacitor that can store like 30kw and it is not bigger then standard car batteries.
    What is surprising that that direct electric 4 wheel drive will not use more fuel .. probably less as oppose to conventional car with 4 wheel drive

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