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  1. #151

    Hybrid vs. Diesel Debate

    Diesels have emission controls as well.

    I've been behind plenty of stinky 10+ y.o. gassers with bad valve seals (burning oil), or so out of tune they're belching black (stinky) smoke.

    Current diesels do not stink like a 20 y.o. worn-out Mercedes.

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  3. #152

    Hybrid vs. Diesel Debate

    What about if you put actual biodiesel into them? Does IT smell?

  4. #153

    Hybrid vs. Diesel Debate

    One of the main concerns with diesels is what happens as the car gets older. Folks keep their cars a long time in many instances. Toyota does not offer the diesels in the US becuase they feel their engines will outlive the emissions equipment on their cars.

    They obviously can make a very good diesel engine.

  5. #154

    Hybrid vs. Diesel Debate

    What happens when a gasoline car gets older?

    Like I've said, I've been behind plenty of smoke-spewing gasoline cars that were old and out of tune.

    Newer gasoline cars have newer technology which, one hopes, will avoid that. Modern diesels also have newer technology like common-rail or unit injectors, catalysts, EGR, direct-injection, etc, which older diesels did not.

  6. #155

    Hybrid vs. Diesel Debate

    The problem Mike- iS that when Diesel emissions equipment fails, the parts and repairs are more expensive, and the emissions much worse than a same condition standard gasoline powered car.

    Toyota is happy to make non-diesel gas engine powered Camrys, and we can see them on the road without their emissions equipment failing before their engines give out. even at 250,000 miles! Toyotas testing on their owm emssions equipment for diesels show that equipment giving at at 100,000 miles, on diesle engine cars that will go much further.

    Toyota KNOWS the diesel emissions equipment will fail, so they have chosen to not introduce diesel cars in the US, despite having more than the ability to do so.

    BIG DIFFERENCE- and a decisive reality from the worlds now largest auto manufacturer.

  7. #156

    Hybrid vs. Diesel Debate

    Please list the emissions equipment on a current VW TDI diesel.

    AFAIK, it includes a catalyst and exhaust-gas recirculation, plus various sensors.

    More or less exactly the same emissions equipment as on a gasoline car.

  8. #157

    Hybrid vs. Diesel Debate


    In that case Honda seem to know something about diesels Toyota does not. See quote from Honda

    "Honda will expand the application of diesel technology to medium-to-large size vehicles. Based on the diesel engine currently sold in Europe, Honda is developing a cleaner next-generation 4-cylinder diesel engine, which will meet the US EPA’s Tier 2 Bin 5 emission standards. Honda plans to introduce this super-clean diesel engine to the market within the next three years. Honda will also work toward development of a clean V6 diesel engine."

    Source: Honda

  9. #158

    Hybrid vs. Diesel Debate


    What source do you get your information from in
    regard to failing pollution controls on diesels past
    100000 miles? Please be specific.

  10. #159

    Hybrid vs. Diesel Debate

    Mike G, the twin charger technology is not the thing of the future. First off, 90% of consumers with a high consern for conserving $$$ at the pump, will not put up the amount of money for this car. Two forms of forced induction on a single car (a VW for that matter) will not be cheap. Also, only time will tell if the bottom end of that 1.4L will hold up to the constant boost from the turbo, and the blower. I understand that both forms of forced induction are not in effect at the same time, but still.

    Another note: How can someone use the argument, "I went from a 36,000 dollar car to a 21,000 dollar hybrid" when arguing the against the high cost of hybrids? You have to compare a COMPARIBLE vehicle. You could compare the cost of Civic to a Civic hybrid, or a Corolla to a Prius, ect. You can't compare the cost of a BMW to that of a prius, and talk about how cheap hybrids are lol.

  11. #160

    Hybrid vs. Diesel Debate

    Scott- the arguement as you put it, is a clarification on Hybrid buyer demographics. The comparison is NOT between a Honda Civicx Hybrid for instance and a Honda Civic DX.

    The comparison is what the buyer is coming from to what they are going to. By moving from a 19 MPG car to a 50 MPG car, with commensurate decrease in air emissions and thensome, the impact is tremendous and the "premium" actually saves money over the previous buyers expenses.

    Someone who buys a Honda Civic Hybrid is not usually in the market for a Honda Civic DX. The demographics are simply different and there is no premium for a hybrid purchase in this case. A good chunk of Hybrid buyers are moving from BMWs, Acuras ( in droves on this one), Volvos etc.

    This is why the hybrid premium comparisons are a myth. The wrong comparisons are being made.

    Thanks for goin through my posts though.

    AS far as Honda, yes they did mention diesel as an alternative for larger passenger vehicles, but in that same press release stated that diesels have no place in the small car market ( which they dont).

    AS far as Toyota, I can go back and pull their own press releases as well as far as the remaining above comments. We have danced this dance.

    Anyway, its moot in 2007 as no diesels can meet 50 state emissions standards except the Mercedes, for which there is a miniscule market.; no other diesels except the Merceds will be sold new in the US in 2007.

    I do see cleaner diesels on the horizon for sure however, along with a big emphasis on Ethanol based engines as well as hybrid market share and product choice growth.

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