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  1. #91
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    Hybrid vs. Diesel Debate

    It sure nice to see all the attention about trying to reduce the usage of fossil fuels. It is my opinion that each gallon of gas or diesel purchased just buys another bullet for a terrorist. The hybrid car is a wonderful idea if proven to be as economically as advertised. Itís been my experience; batteries donít last forever and have to be replaced. Whatís the cost of replacement? Whatís the trade-in value of a hybrid car after several years, knowing the batteries have to be replaced? Who will buy a used older hybrid car, once the battery lifetime is known?

    Last week the Japanese un-veiled a beauty of an electric car will go over 300 KPH but it has 8 wheels instead of the regular 4 wheels. I guess the extra wheels are to support the weight of the batteries. With no surprise the batteries cost $200,000. Doing some quick math, the $200,000 would buy 40,000 gallons of gas, ($5.00 per gallon Canadian prices). Any car getting 20 MPG would go 800,000 miles for the same money.

    For my money the CAFEC (compressed air, fuel, external combustion) Engine running on propane is a far better approach to less fuel cost and reduced emissions. Visit http://www.cafecengine.com for a better opinion.


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  3. #92
    Guest

    Hybrid vs. Diesel Debate

    Hello oldsub!
    Please let me answer a few of your questions:
    >>>>>Batteries-
    Car MFG's have a very nice battery warranty, mine is extended to 150K miles or 10 years. I hope to drive mine in excess of 150K miles and if the battery does need replacing...at say....200K miles I'd probably get a good used one with warranty. If the car is still top-notch shape I might spring for a new one. There was an Insight at Insight Central that had a new one replaced in 2004, Honda charged $2,400.
    A different guy had a used one put in from a wrecked vehicle for considerably less.

    Another choice of mine is to just simply drive the car with a nearly flat battery, however the performance won't be as good.

    >>>>>>Trade in-resale value:
    Probably the best comparason apple to apple is the Civic Hybrid vs Civic EX with similar options. I drive an '04 model in excellent shape with 56K miles.
    According to Kelly Blue Book my HCH has lost about $1K off MSRP while the Civic EX has lost almost $4K.

    I haven't checked the others like Escape Hybrid vs non-hybrid Escape but I assume it is the same.

    >>>>>>Other electric models, here's one:
    http://www.jalopnik.com/cars/alterna...eek-022699.php

    The Fetish has a 200 Mile range, 0-60 in 5 seconds and costs only $660,000.
    How much gas could $660,000 buy?
    When we talk of these expensive, exotic vehices I don't think gas savings are an issue to their owners.

    Most folks are avaraging 47-48 MPG in their HCH or Prius
    www.greenhybrid.com has a database with over three million miles logged with these cars.
    Regarding Civic, this is 12-15MPG more than what people are reporting from the regular Civics.
    I personally stretch it to the limit and averaged over 65MPG last summer, and just over 60 this winter.
    I've gotten almost 70MPG and 941 miles to a tank in my Civic Hybrid, which one would never see in the regular version.

    I'm all for alternative means of transportation and is a big reason I bought my hybrid car.
    I'll be in the car market again in about 6 years and if they make a reliable all EV with good battery warrany that gets 200 minimum mile range that plugs into my house.......and at a reasonable price....Surely I'll buy it.

  4. #93
    Guest

    Hybrid vs. Diesel Debate

    I would like to throw something into this discussion.

    According to DOE, http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/byMPG.htm, on 12/22/05 there are only 4 vehicles available in the US that achieve combined average city/highway of 40 mpg or better. And, it has been reported that 2006 may be the last year for the 2 Honda Insights. Note that none of these vehicles are built in the US.



    There are 57 vehicles available outside the US that achieve 45mpg(US), or better, combined average city/highway. Of these 57 vehicles, 15 (26%) are by DaimlerChrysler, Ford, GM, and Toyota. VW has 10 (17%). This data is available at http://www.40mpg.org/pdfs/120105_CSI...icle_chart.xls



    What is wrong with this picture????!!!



    The absence of this class of vehicle is dragging down the Auto Industry, MPG, Consumer, Environment, Economy, and National Security. At the same time, it is driving up all Fuel Prices.



    The following questions arises! Are either the Federal Legislative or Executive branches aware? If yes, do they care?



    It is my opinion that there is no rational reason these vehicles should not be built (or imported) to be sold in the US.



    These top 57 vehicles should already meet safety and emissions standards of either Europe or Japan. EU emissions are currently at Euro step IV.



    Proposal



    Congress should pass emergency legislation to waive, for only 24 months, import restrictions on gas and diesel light vehicles that meet EU and Japanese emission and safety standards AND get 45 mpg(US), or more, combined average city/highway. These vehicles should be grandfathered upon import.



    I estimate that for each of these high mpg vehicle put on the road, there will be about a 2 gallon/day fuel savings.



    My intention is to stimulate discussion and hopefully some degree of rational problem solving since the government, industry, and/or the financial communities haven't adequately addressed/resolved these issues.



    It is further hoped that you will find the concepts and strategies of sufficient value to share them with your peers, other media, government, and industry contacts.


    References:

    ď40MPG.ORG WEEKLY UPDATE December 1, 2005Ē http://www.40mpg.org/weeklyupdate.cfm

    "Over 35 mpg not in US - http://www.40mpg.org/pdfs/120105_CSI...icle_chart.xls

  5. #94
    Guest

    Hybrid vs. Diesel Debate

    One of the most obvious reasons why the US is so short-sighted when it comes to developing a high fuel-efficient vehicle is simple- the US makes more money on the sale of fossil fuels than the actual oil companies. This is why the government regulations for fuel mileage havent been raised in proportion to the amount being used, so auto makers arent under a time-line to build more efficient vehicles.
    And any US consumer who can afford a $60,000 gas-guzzling SUV is not concerned about the jumping cost of fuel, so the demand for high mileage vehicles is not as prevalent as it is in Europe or countries with a history of high gas prices.

  6. #95
    Guest

    Hybrid vs. Diesel Debate

    READ THIS
    BioDiesel is not so good for Cold Climates per article I've read online.

    As it was said on the internet the biodiesel can gel "turn to lard" the engine preventing it from starting and causing a rebuild situation or serious clean requirements. Additionally Biodiesel is somewhat a farce. It requires more energy to produce than the energy provided by the fuel. Thus your just using nuclear or such to produce this. Not much benefit for the environment there. There perhaps is an exception here if you use USED cooking greases or such. This could negate the aspect of the additional energy needed to MFG biodiesel. Perhaps there is a solution to the geling and energy expense of Biodiesel I'm not aware of. I've done lots of reading on much of these topics as the subject of alternative fuels has interested me since I was a boy. Please share on these topics if you know more.

    In any case if the geling issue is true then perhaps Hybrid/Gas would be better for Cold Climates.

    Do you have a Diesel SUV that can get 30 MPG as this would also interest me. One I could fit in at 6'5 inches.. I can barely sit in full size pick-ups..
    Now convert my Subura Outback to a hybrid like the escape I'd be a happy camper.

    Biodiesel is more env friendly to burn than diesel if you do not include the polution of the energy used in creating biodiesel.

    Where the topic of straight Alcohol for Fuel?
    It more powerful than gas and diesel..
    Far cheaper and cleaner for the env if the infrastucture is put into place.

    It was killed in the old day of Henry Ford by the Oil and Alcohol industry. Not to mention the government who wanted to tax the ass off alcohol producers.

    I drove through Texas a few months ago and saw miles of cotton fields. The amount of waste cotton was amazing on the side of the road. Yet they must make enough from the cotton they collect. Imagine all the waste plant material in those fields though. All that plant material could be used for Alcohol. Yet it just plowed under.. Imagine the waste of energy everyday. Human are very wasteful.

    Heres the scenerio
    Deisel is smart and the engine are good and almost if not equivalent to Gas power today.
    They also tend to be more efficient. This is true..
    Most people think diesel they think work engines not so peepy like in the old day.. However diesel have come along way.

    However you want something real smart where is the Diesel-Biodiesel Hybrids or Alcohol Hybrids...

    Perhaps the car companies are already on it but are working slow to release it.

    Fuel cells are also real smart



  7. #96
    Guest

    Hybrid vs. Diesel Debate

    Its very easy to have the market forces give us
    super efficient cars and utilities. Phase in a tax of
    about $50 per barrel of oil (domestic or imported)
    while reducing the income tax at the same rate.
    Now an average person will pay more for energy
    lets say $2000 per year, but at the same time
    will pay $2000 less in taxes. Soon we will see more
    jobs created (in the USA) in research and building
    of efficient autos, appliances, home improvement and alternate energy. Less money will flow out
    of the country and there will be less money for
    terrorists who benefits from some of this money.

  8. #97
    Guest

    Hybrid vs. Diesel Debate

    I like the thought of a diesel, hybrid, or combination therof, but two things that have not been mentioned are the quasiturbine engine(sumilar to the rotary) and the VW triwncharger engine. Quasiturbines get 8 times the energy for half of the gas consuption. The previous post was correct in stating that gas has hidden costs, but what about propane? It is a byproduct when gas is produced! Why not manufacture a diesel/qwuasiturbine engine and add the twincharger design? There is an interesting concept behind hybrid cars, but it is of little or no value until it is explored more fully.

  9. #98
    Guest

    Hybrid vs. Diesel Debate

    The VW Twincharger gas engine is a pretty awesome little piece of engineering. On 1.4 liters displacement, power output is 170 hp; highway fuel economy, in the Golf GT, is rated at 5.9 liters/100 km. My Passat TDI diesel is rated at 5.7 liters/100 km. The twincharger probably requires premium fuel though. Still, that kind of output and economy is pretty impressive; the economy of a small 1.4 liter 4-cylinder, with the power output matching some V6s, and higher than Honda's 160 hp VTEC 4-cyl in the Accord. Personally I think this sort of technological advance has more mass market potential than hybrids.

    It will be a lot easier to convince someone to buy a "conventional" car with great mileage than a hybrid, which takes some getting used to. It would be better to sell 10,000 of these than 9000 normal 4 and 6 cyl engines and 1000 hybrids, if the object is to reduce overal dependency on gasoline.

    Of course a first step is getting N. Americans out of their SUVs...the most fuel inefficient designs on the road regardless of propulsion system.

  10. #99
    Guest

    Hybrid vs. Diesel Debate

    Mike G,
    I realize that you ignorantly like to put down hybrids but is there something I don't know about that one must do different between driving a hybrid and any other pure ICE powered vehicle. I've got a lot of high-mileage HCH miles and don't do anything different than I would with any of my previous cars except the diesel. With the diesel, I had to look for and keep track of where the stations that sold diesel were. Of course, back then, I also had to let the glow plug heat up before I could start it.
    Now if you'd just quit bad-mouthing hybrids and realize that the right answer is a diesel-hybrid but you and the neanderthal trogolodites in the car companies such as VW refuse to come into the 21st century.

  11. #100
    Guest

    Hybrid vs. Diesel Debate

    I suggest you are looking at the means, rather than the end.

    The end is to get a massive overall reduction in fossil fuel usage, not promote this or that particular technology.

    To achieve the end, the technology must have mass appeal, and also make economic sense to the purchaser. I put forth the hypothesis that we can achieve the end with existing technology at costs consumers can afford and are willing to pay (and for those of us who drive cars rather than SUVs, with no discernable change function in our choice of vehicle).

    Just imagine IF:

    1) everyone drove at the speed limit; 10-20% reduction;
    2) if owners of large SUVs traded them in for a station wagon powered by a 1.4 Liter twincharger: 50% reduction per SUV taken off the road;
    3) if every owner of a compact SUV bought an equivalent car instead, about 10-20% reduction;
    4) if we switched to diesel, which requires less refining and has a higher BTU content, about 10% overall reduction just from the refining process;
    5) if people commuted more by mass transit...

    You get the picture. Yes, hybrids can play a role in all this but I suggest that the day we get everyone into a hybrid is far off; I'm being realistic. Look instead at Europe. Hybrids aren't exactly storming the market there. Why? They are already light years ahead of us in fuel efficiency. For example their marketing does not place emphasis on muscle and low 0-60 times. Fuel prices are too high for that except at the very top end of the market. Diesels are up to 50% of sales now. The rail and transit infrastructure is excellent and actually more convenient than driving. I'm sure that per capita fossil fuel reliance for transportation in Europe is a good 30-50% less than here, mind you that's just a guesstimate.

    None of this comes from gee-whiz technology. Good basic sound engineering (and BTW, small displacement gas engines can and are sold to ULEV emissions standard) with existing technology can get the job done. And even the existing technology is amenable to zero fossil fuel consumption: 100 auto ethanol fueled cars have been a reality in Brazil for a good 20 years now; 100 biodiesel is a feasible and existing technology with only minor modifications.

    The problem in fact is not existing technology.

    It's what's between the seat and the steering wheel. N. Americans are looking for a magic bullet to compensate for our bad habits. Hybrid SUVs so we can feel less guilty about waste? 255 hp "hybrid" sedans so we can feel less guilty about our horsepower habit? Give me a break! Or rather (if it must be gasoline), give me a Golf or Jetta Wagon Twincharger! (although I'm perfectly happy with our diesels).

    I promote a multiple choice strategy based on smaller more efficient vehicles and better mass transit infrastructure. I have no problems with hybrids such as the HCH or Prius making up part of the equation; I have very serious doubts though about hybrid SUVs and "muscle" cars, and I believe that as conventional vehicles are probably going to be with us for a while yet, why not make them as efficient as possible at an affordable price? Why should I have to pay a price premium for fuel efficiency? Why can't we have conventional vehicles that are efficient as well? It's not as if the technology doesn't exist!


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