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  1. #11
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    Hybrid vs. Diesel Debate

    Oh, thank you "BioHybrid"!. I've been waiting for a bio-deisel electric hybid for what seems like forever! Now, if it can just be built with a secondary tank for recycled deep-fat fryer oil from McDonalds or the local greasy-spoon then maybe we can stop messing with the Earth's carbon cycle and I can stop feeling so guilty.

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  3. #12
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    Hybrid vs. Diesel Debate

    I would like to learn more about the biodiesel-hybrid two-seater. That sounds like the perfect commuter car.

    In the meantime, you might find my driving notes of some interest. I am experimenting with a 2003 Beetle diesel. I have added a drag reducer (wing) to lower aero drag. That improved mileage by 5% at 65 mph. Then, I changed tires-- increased diameter by one inch and moved to Michelin's new tire that's used on the Honda hybrid, the Energy MSV4 S8. That increased mileage another 6%. I am now getting 61 mpg at 65 miles per hour on the highway. (Warning- this is not "average driving," in a test I drive a few hundred miles on cruise control, and calibrate speed and mileage using a stopwatch and highway mile posts. Tank filling must be done very carefully to get reproducible results.)

    Many factors affect mileage, including the time of year. Diesel fuel has less energy in winter, so winter mileage is 9% less than summer mileage. There may be a similar effect for gas hybrids.

    Next summer, I expect to be getting over 70 mpg at 65 mpg with my diesel Bug. I have heard about one Prius driver that is also getting 70 mpg highway, but I don't know the circumstances.


  4. #13
    Guest

    Hybrid vs. Diesel Debate

    I think the debate of vs. needs to shift to combinating both technologies as discussed by Rogers. That is what we should be demanding! I am currently looking to buy my first family car (have always had hand me downs) and of course the first car to come to mind was the VW TDI. However, it is not conducive to carrying around a toddler with ease, and biodiesel is not available in my area. I would make it myself (from used oil of course), but I live in a co-op apartment in Brookyln. So the next best is of course the Prius, with a tiny bit more room, but no biodiesel option. If only a 5-7 passenger diesel-hybrid existed and biodiesel was widely available. SOON PEOPLE - SOON!!!! LETS WORK TOGETHER TO MAKE THIS A REALITY!!!

  5. #14
    Guest

    Hybrid vs. Diesel Debate

    If you are living in NY city, I would get the Prius. Just because a TDI would be harder to get (NY doesn't allow new diesel sales, you would have to go to NJ probably and get a used one... or find the rare used one in NY), and you are probably going to encounter alot of traffic, meaning the MPG will be alot lower with the diesel, at least in nonwinter months (in winter I suspect the diesel and the hybrid would be similar).

  6. #15
    Guest

    Hybrid vs. Diesel Debate

    Why not combine the technologies?

    Biodiesel + Electricity

  7. #16
    Guest

    Hybrid vs. Diesel Debate

    From a sustainability point of view, I must go with bio-diesel. Today's hybrid's have two major environmental drawbacks: 1. the run on petroleum drawn from below the earth's crust and 2. they contain toxic battery cores that must be disposed of at the end of their life cycle. Bio-diesel is carbon-neutral, non-toxic, mostly emission friendly, and sustainable. The big problem for bio-diesel is availablity. But if you can get it (or brew it yourself) it's the way to go.

  8. #17
    Guest

    Hybrid vs. Diesel Debate

    Why not godiesel hybrid getting 80 miles to the gallon most states havent allowed int cause there strict state laws on diesels

  9. #18
    Guest

    Number 1, hybrids are

    Number 1, hybrids are transitional vehicles. Right now the infrastructure of the United States as well as most all of the rest of the world is to provide petroleum based gasoline and diesel. Right now in the US, gasoline is far cleaner that diesel fuel since we only have very high sulpher diesel available.

    Hence, for what is available now, hybrid cars are the cleanest cars you can use with existing infrastructure. There are TWO biodiesel fueling stations in the entire state of Arizona. One in Phoenix, one in Tucson. For the other 19 million square miles of land, there's mainly just gasoline plus some diesel pumps.

    Number two, your claim of NIMH battery packs containing toxic cores is AN OUTRIGHT LIE!!!!! I get very tired of lying scumbags like you making shit up like that only because you're just too stupid to find the facts. NIMH is 100% non-toxic. I'm going to repeat this 100 times to try to help you out.

    NIMH is 100% non-toxic.
    NIMH is 100% non-toxic.
    NIMH is 100% non-toxic.

    Next up, let's talk about biodiesel, which like I said, is not widely available. Today, biodiesel comes mainly from soy, and to a small degree from corn. I know of no plant creating biodiesel from algae, although that is believed to be the next step in biodiesel production since it's the least land intensive and is expected to have the lowest total cost and environmental impact once we've used all our excess capacity for soy and corn.

    Turning soy into biodiesel is not a free process. You actually have to use a pretty substantial amount of PETROLEUM BASED FERTILIZER in order to prep the land not to mention tons of fresh water, which is a resource not in overly abundant supply in the United States. Then there is the cost of harvesting, as well as cost and energy expended to process and refine soy into biodiesel.

    It's actually pretty expensive and doesn't scale very well, but since the federal government has huge farming subsidies and gasoline prices have gone up so much recently it's becoming a little more cost effective. From the studies I've read, the most sustainable biodiesel production is algae based. This would still require several hundred billion dollars to help start up the R&D needed to determine how to do it and a few hundred billion to build some refineries to start offering it at stations that currently have diesel.

    As for brewing it yourself, I know a guy doing that. Right now he's mentioned 2 or 3 toxic byproducts of biodiesel production that he's trying to figure out what to do with. I don't recall the details but even though biodiesel itself is pretty clean, the chemicals he used to refine it and produced as byproducts were pretty nasty stuff you wouldn't want to go and dump in your back yard.

  10. #19
    Guest

    Hybrid vs. Diesel Debate

    I run 1/3 biodiesel in my fuel tank. Running biodiesel is like being a pioneer and showing it is do-able, not unlike owning a hybrid car. For most people buying a Toyota Prius at 28,000 dollars isn't exactly good economic sense, either- so that puts biodiesel in perspective. Nobody here has to be told how difficult it can be to actually buy a Prius and put up with the waiting lists and dealer gouging (which is pretty much ubiquitous- I would have had to pay 28,000 dollars for a new Prius).

    Depending on where one lives, finding biodiesel can be easy or challenging- the Midwest is loaded with biodiesel, California has several biodiesel pumps, as does the Washington-Philadelphia area and some areas in the South (but not as many). Overall biodiesel is easier to find than ethanol. And if you have a little knowledge of chemistry and a few extra hundred dollars for equipment (methanol storage, methoxide reactor, ester reactor/washing tanks, pumping equipment), you can make it yourself for around 3-4 dollars per gallon.

    Biodiesel gives you an energy efficiency approaching almost 300 percent (for every 1 KW of energy inputted into production, it produces 3 KW of biodiesel energy). Most of the energy inputted is from the sun. Petroleum refining has an efficiency of less than 90 percent- it actually loses energy to make gasoline. A gallon of biodiesel when burned typically contain 75 percent of the carbon from non-petroleum sources. So most of the carbon comes from the atmosphere. Some biodiesel can also be made from wastes- such as used cooking oil, animal fat drippings, animal renderings, etc. The fuel I buy is made from a guy that gets his oil from a plant that it turn gets used cooking oil and animal renderings and recycles them.

    So my car burning 1/3 biodiesel is making about the same overall carbon emissions as a Toyota Prius. I can pocket that eight thousand dollars I saved and spend as much money as I want on biodiesel and my car will be producing less CO2, and ultimately be more efficient in terms of the overall energy to power the car.

    With improvements in engine efficiency and car design, a US fleet powered substantially on biofuels is definitely do-able in the future just using existing crops. If algae can become a reliable source of biodiesel, it will be possible to meet those goals in the nearer future, powered entirely from biodiesel, and without having to alter the fuel efficiency of the vehicle fleet (other than converting most of them to diesel engines).

    Now, in certain parts of the country, finding a new diesel car can be a challenge because your government, in their wisdom, has decided that they are too "polluting", even if they can run alternative fuels such as syngas diesel, FT coal diesel, or biodiesel (or even, in some engines, creosote- so far the only alternative fuel gas engines can run is ethanol, and that requires modifications to the engine injectors and timing). But there are ways around that, even in California (go to Arizona and buy a "used" diesel car with only a few thousand miles, old VW Rabbits and TDI's can also be sold in California, NY, Vermont, and all the other CARB states).

  11. #20
    Guest

    Hybrid vs. Diesel Debate

    hi there I am wondering if any one out there knows if there is a 1-cyclinder .1 or .2 liter desiel motors out there for sale to the public???? please reply to greenmoss@shaw.ca or post your comments and i will see them thanx

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