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  1. #31

    Winter Driving in Honda Civic Hybrid

    I don't think the guy talking about the diesel cars was saying "hybrids suck, diesels rule". He was just stating his preference for diesels since he's had good results with them no matter what the season. That isn't allowed? Attacking him isn't conductive to reasonable discussion.

    Anyway, back to the winter fuel issue. Someone posted that in the winter California has oxygenated fuel that reduces emissions. I think they have the seasons reversed. The cleaner burning gas is required in the summer months since that is when air pollution is worse and the higher amounts of UV light help form ozone. So if anything, your should see worse mileage in the summer from this type of gas. I think it has more ethanol in it and it does cost more.

    I'd be more willing to believe the decreased mileage is a result of the battery charge/discharge cycle being less efficient due to temperature, the car taking longer to warm up, and the lack of econ mode kicking in. Also, gas doesn't get anti-gel in all areas. You'd have to be in a seriously cold area to get gas with much anti-gel. It's not like diesel. So I doubt this is the issue with most people here.

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  3. #32

    Winter Driving in Honda Civic Hybrid

    When are you all going to wake up and relize HYBRIDS DON'T WORK!!IN THE LONG RUN.I have a Diesel and YES I take a hit in the winter but GUESS what I still get 44mpg in the winter.Wake up use Biodiesl and Think Diesel>>>>

  4. #33

    Winter Driving in Honda Civic Hybrid

    Why put Diesels down.thay get BETTER MPG'S last longer.get 740 in the city driving alone to a tank and 15gal tank can use Biodiesel were a gas car can not.Soo Why is every Soo anti Diesel.

  5. #34

    Winter Driving in Honda Civic Hybrid

    Wagonman, actually there's nowhere on earth that would need anti-gel in the gasoline. Regular gasoline has a gel temp somewhere around -100F. There's not really anywhere on Earth that gets that cold, at least not anyplace you'd be likely to drive a vehicle that didn't have an insulated gas tank.

    Diesel on the other hand has gel temps as high as +32F to +20F for summer blends and some winter blends will only go down to -20F or so without very serious additional additivies above and beyond what were already in the mix from the pump.

    Diesel is extremely dirty in it's nature thanks to the fact diesels don't have throttlebodies. They run extremely lean in all normal conditions and this causes emission levels that are 10 to 20 times higher than a normal gasoline car of similar output. Technology is improving to clean up diesels, but because of it's lack of a throttlebody, it will always be inherently much harder to clean up.

    Biodiesel is only marginally more cost effective than Ethanol, and B100 gells around 32F. Ethanol gels well below -100F since it's effectively pure alcohol. Between the two, ethanol is a lot easier to use, although B100 may be a bit cheaper to produce on a massive scale. Sucks to be you if you live anywhere that gets below 32F though since it would have to be loaded up with anti-gel additives, increasing the cost even further and reducing the overall efficiency.

  6. #35

    Winter Driving in Honda Civic Hybrid

    I'm sure glad that I bought a Jetta TDI (diesel).
    With biodiesel thinned with anti-gel kerosene, I'm only getting 46 mpg cruising at 85 mph 120 miles each day. Best of all, NO BATTERIES REQUIRED and 40-50% less CO2 (greenhouse gas) emissions than a regular gas powered engine.

  7. #36

    Winter Driving in Honda Civic Hybrid

    I'm sure glad that I bought a Jetta TDI (diesel).
    With biodiesel thinned with anti-gel kerosene, I'm only getting 46 mpg cruising at 85 mph 120 miles each day. Best of all, NO BATTERIES REQUIRED and 40-50% less CO2 (greenhouse gas) emissions than a regular gas powered engine.

  8. #37

    Winter Driving in Honda Civic Hybrid

    I've had a HCH for 18 months-23,000 miles now. I keep track of my mileage with the trip computer for each trip and note the mpg and what conditions I experienced. Here are my observations about mpg:
    The trip computers (both) read about 10% too high compared with the MPG from gas receipts.

    When I drive it in mixed driving spring/fall no A/C I get 51-52 mpg on a tank (Once I got 57mpg)

    When my wife drives it she gets about 42-44 mpg

    Temps below 50F reduce mpg by about 5%, temps below 40F (thankfully rare here in S. Texas) reduce mpg by about 15%

    Running th a/c in summer reduces mpg by about 15%.

    In stop-n-go driving in the city I only get about 37-38 mpg and with my style of driving it is almost impossible to keep any charge in the batteries.

    By far the largest impact on my mpg are traffic conditions. It is 17 miles commute to work and that includes the international bridge. It is mixed town/highway driving. If I get good lights the trip will read 65-68 mph (4 times it has exceeded 70). However, if the lights go against me (there are 14 on my route) the trip will read 53-57 mpg. Coming home where there is always a wait on the bridge the trip will read 49-55 mpg. All of these numbers are inflated by the long coasting periods I have when getting off the highway portion. Basically, despite the regenerative braking, by far the biggest drain on mpg is the number of times I have to accelerate from a standing stop. Back in the late '70's there was a woman nicknamed 'featherfoot' because she could coax fantastic mpg out of any car she drove - even the fuel hogs of the day. She was famous - even being featured in magazines. It is possible to get a combined total of 25% fuel savings for FREE, with no new technology, just by airing up tires on a regular basis and improving the braking/acceleration components of our driving habits. Cities and counties could contribute as well by synchronizing stoplights and improving traffic flow although they have so far shown little tendency to do that.

  9. #38

    Winter Driving in Honda Civic Hybrid

    Do I detect a bit of DIESEL ENVY among gas-electric hybrid owners?

    Competing technologies are largely at a crossroads right now. I'm looking more to the end of the decade to see where things are at. The real-world economy of gas-electric hybrids will be well known by then. Long term reliability and longevity plus the environmental issues will be well known too. It will be interesting to see what power train developments happen over the coming years.

    In Europe, Diesel passenger are all the rage over there, now exceeding 50% of all cars on the road there and make up 2/3 of new car sales. In the high-end expensive luxury car segment, the penetration is around 90% and growing. It has been adopted as the practical and greener alternative to gasoline. Greener in terms of greenhouse gas emissions, less crude oil consumption, and more environmentally friendly in terms of the total energy cycle when you consider where gas and Diesel fuel come from when you factor in the energy input into the refining process. Diesels also can run on alternative fuels such as Bio-Diesel, and you can even make it yourself at home from french fry oil if you wanted to. I'm currently unaware of any gas-electric hybrid on the market yet that can run on fuel you can make at home in your kitchen if we were to be hit with another gas crunch like back in the 1970s.

    Right now, I drive a 2002 VW Golf TDI 5-speed and get 47MPG consistently during sustained agressive highway driving at 80-85MPH. It gets it's published EPA's mileage numbers even while doing everything you're not supposed to do with a gas-electric hybrid to get best MPGs. If I "babied" it instead instead of driving it hard all the time, it can easily EXCEED its published EPA numbers!

    I drive about 1000 miles per week in my work commute plus maintaining a life outside the workplace. Because I'm a driving enthusiast and I drive a lot, there are fundamentally 3 reasons why I chose a modern European-designed turbodiesel car over a gasoline-electric hybrid: Economy, Longevity, and Performance. It's able to offer the blend without compromising its "car" features to get GAS mileage improvements alone. One thing overlooked in the diesel vs. hybrid discussions is the fun to drive factor. VW TDIs are easy and fun to drive.

    At 145k miles currently on the odometer, I'm not worried about it's continued reliability and longevity. In terms of performance, the performance is better than ever and still improving. As a lot of gasoline engines including gas hybrid engines begin to show signs of weakened low-end torque, my diesel engine is just entering its prime of life. Diesels definitely have the upper hand when it comes to longevity.

    In the winter, I take a 2-3MPG hit because of winterized diesel fuel alone, not because the car is running any less efficiently. In terms of performance, it actually performs its best during the coldest part of the winter. Colder air is denser air and the turbocharger does a better job of getting more air into the engine for better combustion. It hauls arse best in the wicked cold air with ony a minor MPG hit from the winterized fuel.

    For putting around town in stop/go traffic, I still prefer the Diesel. It takes very little fuel to idle a Diesel, unlike a gasser. When decelerating in gear, fuel injection is ZERO until the RPMs come down to where fuel has to be injected to maintain RPM under load. It consumes about 5 milliliters per minute of idling (as reported by my engine's ECU via OBD-II diagnostic software). That's only a couple of spoonfuls of fuel per minute, not enough to worry about! The auto-stop feature of gas-electric hybrids is unnecessary with a Diesel. I'm still able to get around 45MPG while doing lots of stop/go city driving. Diesels are relatively insensitive to driving patters and barely sip fuel at idle.

    In terms of safety when fueling, Diesel is far safer to handle than gasoline. It doesn't produce explosive vapors that can ignite easily. It's known that liquid Diesel fuel will actually extinguish a lighted match. Don't try this at home with gasoline!

    I'm not going to get excited about hybrid technologies until DIESEL-electric hybrids start appearing. MPGs and 1000+ mile tank ranges will become the norm when that happens. Non-hybrid Diesels in Europe already quicker than their gasoline counterparts while delivering better MPGs too. The non-hybrid VW Lupo already gets 81MPG(US). The new Honda Accord Diesel is already setting new world records for MPGs and performance. Too bad we'll never get any of these cars in the USA.

    After owning and driving a modern turbodiesel car, I will not own another GASOLINE powered car again if I can help it, including gas-electric hybrids. Once you convert to DIESEL, you don't go back to GASOLINE. It doesn't make sense. With DIESEL, I can be totally free from OPEC if necessary by running Bio-Diesel.

    I'm currenly buying a 2005 Jeep Liberty Common-Rail Diesel (160HP, 295 lb-ft torque) as a second vehicle. No more gassers for me!

  10. #39

    Winter Driving in Honda Civic Hybrid

    Because of the sulpher in US gas, diesels smell bad, and put out 20 times as much noxious polutants as a Prius. Love your diesel all you want, but you're doing the environmental damage of TWENTY Prius'.

    Even without sulpher, the incredibly lean mixtures that diesel uses will never be as clean as a gasoline engine. Anything you do to clean up a diesel, you can do to make a gasoline engine even cleaner. As far as emissions goes, diesel can never be as clean. It can get close, and with low sulpher it can at least be a heck of a lot cleaner than it is now, but it can never surpass gasoline.

  11. #40

    Winter Driving in Honda Civic Hybrid

    quote: "Do I detect a bit of DIESEL ENVY among gas-electric hybrid owners? "

    Not if you speak English and can read at a sixth-grade level.

    Look, everybody knows about the advantages and disadvantages of hybrids and diesel. Intelligent people come here to discuss the pros and cons of each. We don't come to this forum to hear people SHOUT that their DIESEL or HYBRID is better than the other person's DIESEL or HYBRID.

    I am a HCH owner who loves my car, and gets 44-52 MPG easily. And I am actually considering a diesel for my next car purchase, to replace our other car, once diesels become clean and stop spewing so much junk into the air that they cannot even be sold in my state. But after reading rants like yours and the previous ones, I am less inclined than ever to do so. If your intention is to entice people towards diesel, then I'm afraid you are probably having the opposite effect.

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