Prius probed for engine stalls
Created June 1, 2005, at 6:49 pm by Anonymous
SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) June 1, 2005
Federal regulators on Wednesday officially opened an investigation into the red-hot Toyota Prius, responding to complaints alleging the cars' hybrid engine cuts out in traffic.
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6 years ago
I can see how the stalling issue could become a problem, but not just with the Prius. Most new cars are run by computer control and monitoring systems. It's just that the Prius has an especially complex computer to control both the gas and the electric portions of the engine (along with other things like the transmission). If something goes even the slightest bit whacky in that control system, I could see how the entire engine might just shut off. Of course, turning the engine off is not the best way to deal with a computer 'crash'. If anything, it should just revert to a 'manual' mode that at least lets you get the car safely off the road.
In fact, I also have a '95 Isuzu Rodeo and this stalling thing nearly happened to me while cruising at 65 on the highway. According to the mechanic at Isuzu, in the Rodeo, the transmission system is tied directly into a computer control system. If that system determines that the transmission is malfunctioning, the entire system can shut down (stalling the engine). The stall appeared to happen during a shifting operation (automatic transmission) between two different gears. This happened right after I had had the Rodeo serviced (they had to take the transmission off during the service). So, pretty much any computer controlled car can have this 'stalling' issue and it doesn't appear limited to just the Prius. It all depends on how the computer control engineer(s) decide to deal with unexpected situations within the control software.
As more and more cars become equipped with complex computer control systems as standard, I'd expect to see this issue become more common across the board. Frankly, however, I'd prefer that the computer control system designers put a 'manual' mode on the vehicle to allow the driver to override the computer control system if a software glitch is preventing the system from operating properly (vs an actual engine or mechanical problem). The designers should give the driver some in-dash computer diagnostic tests (now that many vehicles come equipped with graphical displays) to run before determining whether or not to use manual mode.
6 years ago
Now that you put it that way.
My wife used to work at a GM dealership and I remember incidents like that when computer controlled gas engines first started appearing 10 years ago.
The one thing that came to mind when I first heard about this is 'What protections does the programming in a hybrid have from a two footed driver?' If a driver is continuously pushing the gas and the brake at the same time with the increased complexity in a hybrid, what would it do?
I'm sure the engineer's thought of this and this kind of driving probably only reduces the life of all the components like in a standard vehicle!
6 years ago
Is stalling at highway speeds an acceptable risk?
6 years ago
>Is stalling at highway speeds an acceptable risk?
Not especially. But, as cars come equipped with more and more sophisticated computers, the chance for a computer crash increases. When the software crashes, the software/hardware designer has to make a choice what to do with the vehicle in operation. So far, it appears they choose to stall the engine (or perhaps there's a synergy between the computer control and the engine and when that interface is broken, that's a side effect from the engine itself). As with any application, there's always the possibility of a completely unexpected error. Again, the designers have make a choice on what to do.
This is why I suggested a manual override switch or some other mechanism to allow the driver to continue driving the vehicle for at least 5-10 minutes (enough to get the car off the road). Obviously, if there's a mechanical problem (i.e., you throw a rod), then there's little you can do.
There's always a chance of stalling at highway speeds simply from mechanical problems alone. It's just that it appears some people are less tolerant of computer crashes/glitching when the mechanical portions of the car are functioning properly.
6 years ago
>the chance for a computer crash increases
Does anybody what computer language the Prius uses? Maybe Toyota got a bargain on old Windows 95 program disks from MicroSoft! Maybe the Prius drivers hit CTRL+ALT+DELETE while on the freeway!
6 years ago
This issue is a kind of 'so what' thing in the context of modern engine controls. One of the questions I get is 'how are you going to work on it?' When you change the chip on a gas engine for more performance or find out a $300 computer card controls your ignition and there is no distributor cap to be found ... there is a reason my auto mechanic father-in-law decided the grease rack and towing would occupy him in his semi-retirement.
I think I read there are 20+ microchips in a standard gas engine vehicle and about twice that in a hybrid which has the chip manufacturers rubbing their hands.
Its the future and just hope you don't drive through a strong EMP!
6 years ago
I thought I'd add another one since reading in Walter McManus's column that an injury lawyer is already fishing the Prius stall cases.
When my 1983, originally brown, 4x4 S10 pickup was flat black and 11 years old with a couple of dents .... I was driving down the highway about 50 mph on black ice when the engine suddenly stalled locking the wheels, I spun around a couple of times and went into the 3 feet of snow in the ditch ... after regaining composure I turned the key, started the engine, put it in 4 wheel drive and drove out the ditch and off down the road again. (Note that this is a highway full of log trucks and low boys with heavy equipment and other things you don't want to get in front of). I soon upgraded to another vehicle.
Like I mentioned before these types of incidents happen in other vehicles too. I think the first one that caught my attention was in the early 90's and the problem was a bad 'card' and to change out the 'module' and this was in a new full size pickup.
Not trying to say this isn't serious and that I'm not concerned about my 6 week old Prius, but then again the incident rate is low and I haven't had any problems. I have to admit 'drive by wire' takes some adjustment though and it's coming to more vehicles than just the Prius or just hybrids.
There are actually a couple of cases in the list linked by Walter McManus on his blog, but then again this is the first such list like this I've read. Maybe I should look up a complaint list for a standard reliable vehicle .... nah.
I guess that goes to show you the double edged sword of hyping hybrids ... something goes wrong or is percieved to go wrong with the 'Gee Whiz' stuff and the media picks up on it and gets 1+2=16 almost immediately.
6 years ago
Before computers, the 'fabulous' GM Vega quit on
the freeway at 65 mph suddenly!
Dealer did a major tune up which did not help.
Following wires curiously revealed a third one
from the oil pressure sensor, not to the gauge
but to the gas tank! Located in the tank was an
electric fuel pump. Reasoning said that this was
an attempt to shut down the engine [if you could call it that] in case the oil pressure dropped, thereby protecting the manufacturer from being
accused of putting junk in the hands of consumers.
Changing out the engine oil to 60 weight solved
the problem until a trade was possible. Still, the
dealer never had a clue!!
6 years ago
Craig Van Batenburg is an independent master hybrid technician. He suspects user error. See his possible explanations:
http://www.auto-careers.org/nhtsa%20Prius%20Stalling.htm
6 years ago
Two of the four problems (shifting into Park or Reverse while going down the freeway) are not the equivalent of CTRL+ALT+DELETE as I suggested earlier - they're more like REFORMAT C: (actually REFORMAT TRANSMISSION).
Is it really that easy to shift the transmission when attempting to tune the radio? Sounds like bad human/machine interface design.
6 years ago
I find the human interface to be pleasing, but I'm an 'operator' or supervisor of and most of the things in the Prius are the level of technology approved by the 'Fire System Regulators' (can't remember what they are called right now) for safety control systems now ... (ie: old, proven, redundant ...). Those large industrial facilities you drive by on the other hand do run on an OS, fortunately its XP and not '95.
Anyway, the thing I gleaned from these reports is I was reminded that it seems when you hand someone like a car dealer or home builder your 'first born' all you can expect in return is derision, duplicity, lies, and scorn once you sign on the dotted line.
I actually did return to the dealership to find out if anybody knew anything about exporting my vehicle if the day comes. Some clown in the service department said ... 'they build these custom for dealers in the SE' ... yeah right. I got about as much help from the national Toyota help line. I went and found out what the issues were on the internet.
I guess even Toyota's 'ode to Deming' stops at the factory gate, once past there its customer beware!
6 years ago
In response to Craig..........if you had been driving
around in the '70's during the gas crisisees[?] --
'73 & '79...you learned to always fill 'er up once
you reached the half way mark. I do that with my
'05 Prius, so never a problem, even if it only takes
5.5 gal. You never know when the middle east
will shut off the spigot again!
6 years ago
Its been a while since I've posted here since I am very disillusioned with some of the bloggers who are truly blockheads, but at least there is more intelligence in the discussion groups......
I am hoping the shut-down problem is actually user-related so that I can stop thinking about it. However, I think Craig's points, numbers 2 and 3, won't be the cause. In my manual (yes I read the darn thing--but it was the first time I ever read a car manual) states that (Section 2-6, Hybrid Transaxle, pg.136) pressing "park" while moving, and/or shifting to "R" while moving, will cause a beep to sound and the system will automatically shift to "N." It doesn't say anything about shutting down the vehicle. I've tested this in my '05 Prius and the engine didn't shut down. Now, if the driver had his/her foot on the break while accidentally pressing "P" there may be a problem......
Unfortunately, I haven't seen any article saying how long it took for the local dealers to "fix" the cars in question and get them back on the road again. If it was pretty quick, without any new parts, then there is even less to worry about.
I couldn't (quickly) find information relating to what happens when you run out of gas. I thought the car would just keep going until the batteries completely died..... which is what some have posted on the newsgroups sites. So I didn't think the car shuts down in this instance. I also thought I read an article that mentioned that the cars that had this problem also had at least 10-15,000 miles on them. I bought my Prius on 29 Jan 05 and I have 9300 miles--I'll let you know what happens.......!
On the whole I can't say that I am worried at all. We have all probably had cars that stalled on the highways before. Hybrids will soon be the dominant vehicle sold, so they will--and should--get a lot of scrutiny. I would rather have Toyota looking into the problem than most other car companys. We'll just have to wait and see what the investigators find.
6 years ago
Don't forget that you are dealing with computers,
and they do not 'think' the same as humans......
good or bad[?].
I'd opt for not running the gas tank down to empty
just to find out the result.
6 years ago
We bought a new 05 Prius in October of 04 and have literally run the wheels off-in city and highway. It hasn't "coughed" or stalled once. This is one of the best car we've ever owned
6 years ago
You can be "casual", " "glib" about the Prius stalling - until it happens to you and it is towed to the dealership where the dealer's tech says " there is nothing wrong with your car "! I've had mine towed in 3 times - no solution !!! Also couldn't start easily a few more times!! Check out nhtsa's( www.nhtsa.dot.gov ) web site and see what others say. Their investigation is showing many more than "33" reports according to the DOT man who called me for an interview !!!
6 years ago
My 2004 Prius stalled out while I was driving on a rural road only three months after I bought it. I was accelerating and it simply froze, I couldn't even turn it off. (The gasoline motor was silent, but the computer screen remained on when I tried to turn it off.) It had to be towed to the nearest dealer who had no idea how to fix the problem. They contacted "headquarters" who instructed them to enter computer codes, and it fixed it.
Now there actually WAS an indication of trouble two weeks earlier when a warning message appeared on the screen for no obvious reason, but the car did not stall at that time. I drove it off the freeway to the nearest dealer who entered some computer codes to fix it.
In both cases I drilled the mechanics about the cause, and they were totally baffled, having no idea why it happened. They tried to tell me it might have been because I was down to two cubes of register fuel, but I didn't buy that because I had been down to one cube before with no problem.
Now the car is ten months old with over 30 thousand miles and I have not had any more trouble.
6 years ago
You can count us among the users who experienced the shut-down problem. It happened in Feb. 2005 on our 2004 Prius, which was about 14 months old at the time. We were travelling at highway speed, and gently braking as we exited onto a cloverleaf from the expressway, as we've done dozens of times before. This time, the gasoline engine simply quit, and the (!) light went on. We were able to continue to the bottom of the off ramp on battery power, at which point we pulled over, shut off the car and called the dealership's service dept. -- which was fortunately open on Sat.
I tried restarting the car, and found that the gasoline engine was working (as was the electric) and that the car was driveable. After talking it over with the dealership, we decided to take it straight to them. They never did find out what was wrong with the car, and returned it later that day, with the (!) light reset.
Then last month I read on the Wall Street Journal online that other owners had been having the problem in variety of circumstances, and that Toyota had developed a new software download to address the problem.
When I called the dealership, they were unaware that a service bulletin had been issued, but sure enough, after researching it and calling us back, they told us that there indeed was such a problem, and to bring the car in. Even after bringing the car in, we had to wait 24 hours for some sort of "software" to be sent to the dealership so that it could be installed on the car.
My sense is that Toyota may have been keeping this quiet until they could ascertain how widespread a problem this is. You can rest assured that it is a problem with the vehicle, and not driver error.
Incidentally, despite this problem, we still love the car. The prolem never did re-occur, even between the incident and the fix, and the car has been trouble-free ever since.
6 years ago
Thought I would add my 'two cents' to this story...
James
IntelliChoice
http://media.vmsnews.com/MR.pl?id=060605-556660-E000274088
6 years ago
I rented a Toyota Prius when I was traveling for business and WOW. Let me tell you that thing was so quiet that I thought it had died on me. So, I pushed the button to restart it several times before I realized, it was idling that quietly. I'm not too proud to admit when I'm wrong. So what does tham mean? It's really a phenomenal futuristic car that's gotten a really bad wrap because it's too good. This is a really sophisticated vehicle that takes the common person time to get used to - no key turns to start the vehicle. Just push the button. Totally Awesome Toyota. Thanks, especially now that gas has skyrocketed to around $3.00 a gallon with Hurricane Katrina hitting the gulf coast.
6 years ago
I believe the "stalling" is intentionally designed into the software to protect the transmission. I think a design decision intended to protect the car is putting my life at risk.
My early 2005 Prius has "stalled" twice: once on the freeway at 80 mph when I had to jam on the brakes (someone cut me off) and again on surface streets at 30 mph when I floored it to accelerate suddenly. In each case the transmission's internal componenets would be under tremendous strain unless it disengaged. In each case all lights, headlights, indicators stayed on, the "check engine" light came on, the car continued coasting (as if put in neutral), and the car was unresponsive to the throttle and the gearshift. (In neither case did I hit the gearshift norpower button before the "stall"). In both cases I coasted to a safe spot (try crossing five lanes of 70+ mph freeway traffic at night while coasting). Only after parking, turning off power, and restarting power would the car operate...at which point it operated fine. Dealer couldn't find anything wrong...in fact the second incident was two days after my 30,000 mile service!
To me it's not stalling; it's shifting into neutral when the transmission is under significant strain. Then it refuses to go back into drive until you turn power off.
I called corporate today to start a "case" and was told they are unaware that this is a recurrent issue. I am posting this in a public place in case I am killed or injured before Toyota figures out that this is a serious and recurrent issue.
I absolutely love the car other than fearing I'll be flattened...but hey, the transmission will be protected!
6 years ago
By the way my hands were both on the wheel (not near the gearshift nor radio) and I drive with only one foot. This car just can't handle sudden changes in inputs...even when taken as evasive action. Yes I was going 80 but what about the time I ws goin 30?
Not user error, at least in my case
6 years ago
I brought my 2004 Prius in for the "recall" upgrade to prevent stalling. That was several weeks ago. The dealer was unable to perform the proper maintainance and the computer was destroyed. One had to be backordered from Japan and still hasn't arrived after several weeks. I am driving the dealer's Camry, but wonder if this is an isolated incident. I am starting to worry about Toyota. Do they know what they are doing? What other problems lie hidden in the Prius. A friend just called to make an appointment for the recall and was told that the dealer was still working out some glitches and that they should call back in a few weeks.
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