Non-Hybrids that achieve near Hybrid MPG

Sounds like you are comparing a fully loaded HCH or a nicely loaded Prius to stripped down econo cars.

People have been comparing these for years.

I wonder what these vehicles will cost once loaded up with comparable features?

Your $13K automobile isn't a very good deal if you want the most dollar for mile value.
Case in point- There are a few new vehicles to be had in the $10K range that get mid-upper 30's MPG.

Yes, for $10K you get a stripped down econo box. Nothing extra but a great fuel for mile value.

How about comparing a fully loaded Civic EX to a stripped no-frills DX and say the additional $6K is for nothing?

I doubt Honda would release a fully loaded car that costs $5,500 less than it's competing MPG model.....The championed, newly redesigned HCH.

In the same token for Toyota, up to $12,000 less than Pruis?

Somethings wrong with that picure.
Why would you guess they would cut their own throats?

I doubt the Fit is capable of almost 70MPG tanks.

I will put in another shameless plug for a diesel.

A VW Jetta GLS TDI sells, in Canada at least, for a MSRP that is about $1400 less than a Honda Civic Hybrid. It is comparably if not better equipped, with electric windows and door locks, cruise, air, heated seats, front/side airbags, 4-wheel disk brakes with ABS. ESP (stability protection) is available for about $400 CDN. A station wagon version based on the oldre platform is still available for about $1000 more (we have one). It will get about 45 mpg highway.

The station wagon is more economical as it's based on the lighter A4 platform. You can get 50 mpg on the highway if you drive at the speed limit, and with a large fuel tank capacity, we've seen range hit 800 miles. City mileage won't be as good as a hybrid. Figure 35 mpg city.

With the new Civics, you could consider a base DX sedan. In Canada it retails for $16800, has ABS brakes and electric windows, costs $11700 less than a Civic hybrid. It is rated for 42 mpg on the highway. An LX sedan, closer in equipment level to the hybrid, sells for $20300 in Canada, still a full $8200 less than the hybrid. A top-of-the-line EX is $21800.

Personally, if I didn't want a diesel, I'd find the new Civic EX damned attractive. It's still $6500 less than a hybrid. I drive 60,000 km/year (37000 miles). I figure real world economy of the hybrid would be about 10 mpg better (keeping in mind our tough winters). At today's gas prices, that's $650 per year. In other words, it would take me 10 years to catch up with the hybrid's initial investment. Since I rarely keep a car that long (370,000 miles is a lot of miles), even I, who with a very long commute, would never recoup my investment.

You could also do the same exercise with a Corolla vs Prius although the Prius is somewhat more upmarket than a Corolla.

I joked recently that hybrids were for those who flunked math. The reality is somewhat less prosaic. Hybrids are for people with enough disposable income that they can afford to sacrifice value in order to get better mileage. For many people, value sacrificing value is not an option, and for those people, there are still decent, low-pollution and relatively economical cars out there.

YMMV, all my figures are based on Canadian models and prices. You guys south of the border have nice tax breaks in some parts of the country which will help the hybrid's case.

I must admit that even I, a diesel fan, am taking a hard look at the new Civics and would certainly have it on my list if I were trading today. The new Civic's highway rating is the same as our diesel Passat.

Mike G.
Canada

"However, it is designed well below Civic, and more below HCH.
Since this is below even a Civic DX, there is no comparisson."

Yea, but can the Civic do this

http://www.honda.co.jp/Fit/showroom/utility/index.html

I love the fact that a econo vehicle can be so versatile.

Toyota Canada Site on the Yaris Fuel Economy

http://www.toyota.ca/cgi-bin/WebObjects/WWW.woa/9/wo/Home.Vehicles.Go.YarisHatchback-uMwYEBBcQxr1fc6oQwRt1g/16.15?v124040e%2ehtml

Cool Video Link on the Yaris

http://www.toyota.ca/cgi-bin/WebObjects/WWW.woa/9/wo/Home.Vehicles.Go.YarisHatchback-uMwYEBBcQxr1fc6oQwRt1g/13.7?ticker%5fdetail%5f1%5fe%2ehtml

I looked at all options when purchasing my car. At really anyone has to admit that the diesel takes it. Hybrids are unproven tech, that hasn't been around enough to know how long the battery will last and all. I have had a cell phone for two years and the battery is dying on me, it's a pain in the a**. But it doesn't cost 2K to replace (estimate). The Jetta TDI, which I bought, gets mixed 45 MPG every tank... On highway trips to Chicago from Atlanta it gets above 50 MPG. The car inside is immaculate, far better looking and built than filmsy hondas. Even if it isn't it sure looks 100x's sturdier than a civic any day of the week. Also, you must remeber that in the US anyway the diesel fuel is about to be changed, which is supposed to increase milage. And on top of that diesel engines last forever! And if your worried about the enviorment and all run biodiesel!!! It's cleaner than anything going.. (no NOX) Hybrid's are 'neat' but can't really compare to a 100 year old technology that does the same thing without being immensely complex. Think about it.

One last thought. The new diesel cars out there don't have the same draw backs as the older ones. No cold weather problems, smoking, and loud engines.. You couldn't even tell the TDI was Diesel if you weren't told..

So the next best thing:

Non-Hybrids
---------------
07 Toyota Yaris = 45
07 Honda Fit = 45

Hybrids
-----------
06 Toyota Prius = 55 MPG
06 Honda Civic = 50 MPG

where do you get 45MPG on Yaris and Fit? they are listed as 33/38mpg, which in real life would mean 35mpg, just as much as my '96 Protege gives me.

Hello. I would like to show you a very interesting information. It is true that the hybrids are one of the best options, specially in Us that are more models and marks, but in Spain scarcely we have the Prius and the Civic. So the most normal thing is to continue buying diesel or petrol. But it happens that there are some non-hybrid models who have a very low, enclosed consumption those of petrol. In fact, I have a Seat Ibiza 1.2 64 hp, and obtain a yield of 45,28 milles per gallon (= 5,5 litros/100 kms.) or less, depending on the cloggings and traffic-lights. This means, that the hybrids have to improve very much and offer engines combined with diesel, hydrogen...
A greeting.

The Honda fit is scheduled for a hybrid model in 2007, at 60 MPG. The hybrids represent technological leaps forward that dont come around too often. Hondas and Toyotas have been out for years now with much better reliability scores than something like a VW Jetta TDI ( Diesel).

While just interim steps, its basically a choice of conscience and patrotism at this point. Cleaner air, made from American Parts moreso than most vehicles, largely moving to American Assembly factories, with better emissions profiles by quite a bit and requiring less oil out of the ground, not only in the gas tank, but in the actual oil change volume itself.

Regenerative breaking is a marvel, not a miantencnace issue; in fact, it lessens the wear on brake pads, drums, and rotors by a very large percentage.

Mike G:

Excellent discussion
I am a hybrid fan but realize there are other ways to go

You forgot to mention 3 'pro deisel' items:

1) Diesel is getting cleaner and cleaner Honda has a new clean engine coming soon
2) Biodiesel is a real possibilty for deisel engines that can dramatically reduce our oil dependence
3) The Driving experience of Vdub is much nicer than a Prius. I loved my old Passat wagon ( except in the snow)

N0w 2 things 'pro hybrid'
1) the PZEV emissions really make Pruis and HCH shine. Less smog less poor air quality.
2) The possibilty of a PHEV Pruis would SIGNIFICANTLY reduce greenhouse emissions. Most of my trips are 5-10 miles , PHEV would be ALL electric. No gas burned no CO2 emissions. Add this to a wind solar hydro electricity source and you are commuting to work in a pretty green way ( many states allow one to choose a green electric power source). Obviously not ALL of us can use this green electricy. Despite this, even using conventional oil gas powered electricty gives less pollution when you factor in the costs of getting all the gas to you at the gas station.

Tom