A manual hybrid with decent hp

I agree with Brett. The eCVT used on the Toyota and Ford hybrids is nothing like the automatics in regular cars. You could not duplicate the efficiency of the eCVT with a manual transmission. It is computer controlled to run the gasoline engine at the most efficient point for the driving condition. The eCVT is an essential part of the full hybrid drive train. It is not a luxury feature for people who don't know how to operate a clutch.

Try driving one of the Ford Escape hybrids if you want something of that size. We are very pleased with ours. The actual horse power is about 180 for the combined gasoline/electric but the low speed torque of the electric motor makes it feel like a lot more. It goes great up to about 60MPH but isn't much different than the regular 4 cylinder Escape above that speed.

Lilly, my wife and just returned from a two-week 3,700+ mile trip in her 2003 Honda Civic Hybrid with a 5-speed manual transmission (to be reported on my blog here shortly). Sure, the car slows down on some of the long mountain grades, but so do most of the other vehicles. And the miles-per-gallon of 43.9 isn't bad, considering most of the trip was at the consensus speed of 75-80 MPH. That's not embarrassing at all.

Harsha,

Having a manual transmission in a hybrid really doesn't make sense from technical perspective. The reason a pure Internal Combustion Engine (ICE - gasoline or diesel) needs a transmission is because the ICE only performs well over a very small speed range (usually between about 3000 and 5000 RPM's). At slow speeds, however, they are very weak so it would be hard to start up - hence the need to shift the gears.

An electric motor, however, has its maximum torque and horsepower at zero RPM's but the performance remains pretty constant up to the maximum speed. Therefore, since a hybrid uses the electric motor assist for starting up, there is little need for a transmission at all.

If the industry starts producing strong hybrids, where by "strong hybrid", I mean that all the electric motor is strong enough to handle all startup, one will be able to eliminate the transmission altogether.

This is kind of going to upset the large power train division in the car companies, however, so we aren't likely to see the transmission eliminated altogether for a while. The CVT, however, is a 'darling' of transmission engineers so they are happy to put it in the cars while no one is particularly interested in the manual transmission and the demand is rather limited anyway.

We bought the '03 HCH with the manual because I realized it would probably be the last of the breed and my wife insists on driving a manual transmission so I can understand the interest. Now I don't get to drive it very often because she wants it to last forever :-(

P.S. Lilly - I'm sooo glad to see I'm not the only one that's upset about the lack of manual cars as far as hybrids go.

Dom,

I'm actually right with you on the manual transmission. I like the control you get with the shifter as well. It's just that that it may be a thing of the past.

As far as cost goes: Once the demand goes down and the supply goes up, and the the car companies fully admit that the electric part of the drivetrain is the most powerful and efficient, a strong, full hybrid will be much cheaper than any pure ICE vehicle. It's cheaper since it can:

- eliminate the transmission altogether
- reduce the size of the ICE
- reduce the complexity of the ICE (no need for sophisticated timing and emissions controls)
- reduce maintenance to minimal amounts (no brake changes, fewer oil changes and tune-ups)

However the control/fun factor CAN still be present in a strong hybrid since there are several factors that can be tweaked to optimize performance, speed, and economy, similiar to what one can do by shifting today.

These are:

- adjust the strength of the regenerative braking
- adjust when you use ICE -vs- when you use EV only based on anticipation of hills and state of battery charge.

The EV1 had a switch on the 'shifter' that allowed you to engage or disengage the regenerative braking. It did not offer any ability to adjust the amount of regen but by switching it on or off, I could adjust my deceleration as I was coasting off the freeway, similiar to using engine braking with a manual transmission or how I use the clutch on our HCHM5 today.

For acceleration, once you've felt smooth EV acceleration from zero to 60 in 4 or 5 seconds, you'll never really feel any urge to want to pause the exhilaration to shift. Today's wimpy hybrids clearly don't provide enough EV acceration for anyone to be able to appreciate this.

Right now, the manufacturers are trying to make the hybrid drivetrain as transparent to drivers as possible. Perhaps, with enough feedback, as drivers become more familiar with the hybrid drive, they'll start providing more hooks to be able to control the drivetrain and squeeze a little more performance (speed and economy) out of it.

On the other hand, you can wonder if; had the automatic transmission preceded the manual; would auto manufacturers ever have provided manual transmissions? Would they have been afraid that they would scare drivers away? Remember that there are very few cars made in the US that even have manual transmissions today.

Either way, I'm with you though. Today's hybrids should have a manual transmission option.

I'm sure manuals will be around for a long long time. They've definitly got their place, and are the best transmission option for a number of things.

However, pairing one with a hybrid drivetrain just doesn't make a whole lot of sense. The type of "typical" driving that a hybrid is designed for is generally not the type of driving that really requires a manual transmission. On top of that, if you're putting in all this hybrid technology to increase efficiency, and that technology needs a new type of transmission device to work best, why put in a manual tranny?

It's like upgrading your stereo system with a top of the line head unit and amps, but running it through the base model OEM speakers.

qq,

One of the main reasons that car companies don't like EV's or hybrids is that the electric drive threatens to obsolete the transmission. This isn't very popular if you run or work in the transmission division of a car company. However, the 'holy grail' of the transmission engineers has always been the CVT since it allows an ICE to perform as smoothly as an electric. Unfortunately, the CVT has trouble handling heavy startup loads as has been seen every time in the past when they have been introduced. The electric assist, however, eases the load on the CVT, thus allowing the transmission interests to put their 'baby' into the car.
The CVT in the Prius is also quite different from the sliding belt types used previously so it should be much more reliable anyway.

They can also add an extra gear: six-speeds yield more mileage (and performance) than five-speeds, which were used on the Honda hybrids. Also, even the five-speeds got better mileage than their CVT counterparts. THe six-speeds will beat them even more.

Lilly,

If you're looking for proven technology then a manual hybrid isn't really any better than any other hybrid. The addition of the additional drivetrain will undoubtedly add new nuances that ?may? affect handling in extreme situations. I doubt, however, that these will be significant.
Remember also that the CVT in hybrids acts much differently than an automatic transmission, expecially in snow and ICE. I haven't done or seen any studies on how they perform however.
Most accidents, however, aren't caused by the drivetrain. It could also, of course, be said that by having to take both hands off the wheel to shift could be seen as a safety flaw in manual transmissions.
Personally, I think that the subject of safety is pretty complex and nearly impossible to definitively say that a manual hybrid is any more or less safe than the CVT.
Besides, if we keep our dependence on oil and causing global warming and pollution, the certain problems we will face will be much worse than a few little uncertain automobile safety issues.
We've got to continue to move forward even if their is a slight risk of unknowns.

Dom,

Don't get me wrong here. I own an HCH purely because it has a manual transmission so I fully understand what and why you want it. I'm just sharing the technical details with you.

I also agree with your statement that your "satisfaction as a customer" "Should be a company's top priority" but unfortunately, it isn't. Whether or not you are like me, who wants the technology that will save the world or like you who want's the old stuff doesn't really matter to them. They will sell you what they think will bring them the most profit. Sadly, enough, they suffer from a 'group-think' that seems to prevent them from even seeing what will bring them a profit.

At least they aren't ripping the manual transmission HCH's away from people and destroying them as they did with my EV1 and Honda did with their EV+. They just won't sell you one.

As I occassionally have to remind my wife: Manual transmissions are obsolete. You'll have to get used to it eventually. We rushed out and bought the manual HCH because I realized then that it would be the last manual hybrid. It will give my wife another decade or so of manual transmission driving while being fairly energy efficient. I'm sorry we hadn't met earlier so I could warn you as I did my wife.

There is no use for a transmission of any kind in future cars. Transmissions waste energy. The only reason there are transmissions in hybrids is that the transmission makers don't want to go out of business. You're being sold something you don't need. They might as well keep providing a hitch for horses as provide a transmission.

Go ahead and buy a diesel if you like but I'm not sure I see the benefit. You aren't going to save any money and you aren't going to save the planet with diesels.

Sorry but I wish I could tell you what you want to hear. I'm just the messenger/observer I can't get you the car you want anymore.

I've loved my manual shift cars. And I love my Escape hybrid with its eCVT.

I can't imagine what the Escape hybrid would be like with a manual transmission. The engine turns on and off at will. Would you shift everytime the engine went on or off? And sometimes the computer turns on the air conditioner to cool the battery. Would you sometimes downshift then?

It would be nutty, in my opinion.

ex-EV1_driver,
Thanks for the clarification on manual hybrids. I almost resigned on HCH manual and went to get a Prius. However, the dealer had a 05HCH manual...now, that's gotta be a sign. So, I went ahead and bought it :)

I am kind of paranoid though, I keep hearing all these clicking noises (coming from the clutch, I think) and I can't help feeling that it's going to break down on me soon :(

This Reply is in response to ex ev1 owners coment that he didn't see the benefit a diesel engined car would provide as far as economy and low emissions. Well just because he doesn't see the benefit doesn't mean it doesn't exist. First of all, diesel engines are more efficient than gasoline engines. There's more power in diesel fuel than in gasoline and thus diesel engines are roughly 25-30% efficient where as gasoline engines are something like 15-20% efficient. This means more power and miles per gallon. Secondly, diesel engine technology has come quite a long way since its introduction and diesel engined cars and trucks have become drastically quiter, cleaner, and more efficient. All this coupled with the advent of biodiesel would provide for a clean burning renewable resource that is easily manufactured, cheap to produce, capeable of recycling what is otherwise a waste product, can be made from multiple different materials, and can be used in existing vehicle technology with little or no modifications. Not to mention the fact that diesel engines last longer on average than gasoline engines an can be easliy run for extended periods of time with out the risk of overheating. Volkswagen's TDI equipped vechicles have been noted to have EPA ratings of something like 36 city 43 hwy and up depending on models, and individual owners have reported mileages as high as 55 mpg or so. So if these don't seem to strike you as benefits from diesels then suit yourself. But hybrid technology is still in its infancy and demonstrates other environmental concerns besides exhaust emissions. What happens when hyrids represent a large portion of the vehicles on the road and these vehicles begin to need battery replacement. With each of these hybrids contain something like 200+ pounds of nickel metal hydride batteries, it's going to be really interesting to see how they plan to safely recycle them all. Just some food for thought!

P.S. Manual transmissions are the only transmissions worth building, screw automatics and CVT's as far as I'm concerned. They are great technological achievments and their interworkings are quite intriguing but they have no place in any car or truck that I want to drive.

Gear Head: It is a bit surpising to see a protagonist for mechanical technologies to reject new development like CVT (which is really over 30 years old) and commonly found on scooters and the like. New transmissions are now comming out such as they are used in races cars, and ironically have been used in farm tractors for decades, where each gear has its own electro/hydraulically controlled clutch pack, these transmissions have all the advantages of a manual transmission with zero slip, no torque converter and high efficiency. They are found on some expensive exotics like Ferrari, Porsche, but VAG, BMW and Daimler Chrysler and Honda (Acura) are begining to offer them in everyday cars with up to 7 gears (Daimler Chrysler "R" and "M" Class). As the number of gears increase, in farm machinery up to 20 gears +, it will be difficult to actuate the clutch and shift fast enough to keep up. As for complexity, unfortunately technological progress seems to be linked to it.

Also it should be mentioned that the manual transmissions DID get better mpg than the automatic cvt's. The old HCH and the Insight were both offered with manual and CVT, and the 5-speed did better for both cars.

The mileage (and performance) would both be better if they offered a six-spped manual instead of five.

The Civic HX is offered with both the 5-speed and the CVT, so that might be your best bet for some of you. Again, the manual gets better mpg than the CVT.

Also, I read www.epinions.com reviews of the HX, and many of the CVT cars said that the transmission is not reliable (it has been offered for 10 years), and I assume it is the same CVT unit in the hybrids, so from the the epinions on it, I don't like the mandatory CVT in the Honda hybrids (at least the HX is available with the 5-spped but they should offer six-speed).

I have to say that after a 1.5 years of driving nothing except automatics, I finally got my 5spd manual VW Golf TDI (diesel). The feeling of finally driving a manual again was so exciting. I was right about my love of manuals. I tried to like the automatics for my wife's sake (got rid of my old manual car a month after we got married), but I just couldn't. Perhaps it's because I learned to drive in a manual, and that's mostly what I've driven for the ten years I've been driving, I don't know. If ex-ev1 is right about car companies continuing to put transmissions in hybrids, perhaps when more and varied types of hybrids are developed, there will be at least a couple mild hybrids where a manual works well, like the Insight or first generation civic hybrid. I've heard a rumor that the Insight power train is going to be used in a Honda Fit hybrid. Perhaps the manual version will be offered?? That would be a cool hybrid!

For you folks who like the control of the manual transmission but the economy of the electric, I can offer you a glimpse of a great future. I got a chance to drive AC Propulsion's new eBox recently. The eBox is a Toyota Scion xB converted to full electric. In addition to ACP's awesome power (0-60 mph in ~7 sec, 90 mph governed top speed, 140 - 160 mile range), the eBox has adjustable regenerative braking.
This allows the driver to adjust how agressive the regen is, similiar to selecting a gear for engine braking with a manual transmission. The benefit is that you can get continous adjustment rather than just the choices of gears. Novices and the unadventurous can simply set the regen to be some moderate amount of drag, essentially identical to what an automatic transmission provides when you let off the gas. More exerienced drivers can adjust the regen from zero regenerative braking (pure coasting) to pretty heavy drag. With fairly aggressive regen, one can drive with just the accelerator and almost never use the brakes - accelerator down to accelerate and let up off for the desired amount of deceleration. In slow-and-go or stop-and-go traffic, this can be fantastic. In mountain driving, you can simply pedal the amount of speed you want while ascending or descending.
I think most manual transmission afficianados will really enjoy this feature that is possible with the electric drivetrain. I just hope that it gets added to hybrids and new BEV's.

If you live in a northern climate, the ability to use the transmission to manage the amount of torque available is a tremendous advantage. Yes this can be done to some extent in an automatic; but, it is neither as intuitive nor as thorough as the control offered by a manual transmission.

Want to stop tire spin on ice? Gear up early. The loss of torque reduces the risk of tire spin.

Gearing down, in essence, engine breaking, is possible in an automatic.

So, automatics give you one option but not the other. Ironically, from the stand-point of a hybrid, its the energy inefficient driving option (engine breaking) that an automatic transmission provides.

When I suspect that I might have to stop or slow down, my first instinct is to push the clutch, there are lots of situations where I coast. I suppose, I could do this with an automatic; but, it is an instinctive part of driving a standard.

Standards, in city driving, spend a surprisingly large amount of time simply coasting. If there was a cut-off on the electric motor when the clutch was pressed, you would have zero energy consumption during that coasting period. I don't know the hybrid technology and maybe there is something in the technology that accomplishes this. Is there?

Finally, if it will sell more hybrids, why not offer the option of a manual transmission?

lot of people rather get a Manual car than a hybrid automatic because the hate automatic if companies start making manual hybrid car like civic or Toyota people buy them more

Eric - I'm not sure how the Acura TL compares to the Acura TSX, but there is supposed to be a diesel engine available starting with the 2009 model TSX - and I don't see why a manual shouldn't be available to go with it. It should be as clean and efficient as a hybrid version would be, and should be a whole lot of fun too!!

ok, the car with decent (actually awesome) hp is now in production, except it doesn't have an archaic manual transmission to slow you down in the quarter mile.
It's the Tesla Roadster. Brad just opened up a new forum (http://www.hybridcars.com/forums/cars/tesla-roadster) to discus it but this baby does zero to 60 in less than 4 seconds, enough to essentially beat any other production vehicle on the road with maybe a couple of exceptions.
Its expensive but it definitely beats anything else in its price range - and it uses no petroleum at all.

You are the only one who actually made sense, its not about whats more efficient, it is about the experience of it. I myself will never own another automatic again, i don't need the car to tell me when to shift, and i don't need the computer to drive the car for me and AUTO trans are WAY more prone to failure then manuals.

Plus if you know how t drive it, most people with the manual transmission hybrids report 10-25 mpg more in their insight/civic hybrids on fueleconomy.gov actual user ratings vs. the estimate.

westcoaster said:
"I have no issue with automatics, and I do understand they are mostly more efficient for hybrids; I just prefer to drive standard shift since it keeps me more engaged with the driving and more alert to road conditions. I hate to think what I'm going to do for my next hybrid. I hope they keep making manual trannies for those of us who love them."

Exactly!! When driving a manual I'm involved, having fun, and much more alert. In an automatic get bored, and just don't pay as much attention. I'm hoping the Europeans will come out with hybrids that include a manual transmission, since the majority of them prefer manuals. The mostly lack of manual transmission options is what turned me off to current hybrids and on to diesels.

Folks,
We just got our Tesla Roadster and, while none of you probably will believe me or even understand what I can only tell you, there is a better alternative to a manual transmission - no transmission.
You really have to experience a performance EV to really know but I'll try to explain as best I can.
The Tesla offers about 25% regen on the 'gas' pedal (unlike the regen on the brake as is found in all of today's hybrids. The Tesla brakes are conventional disk brakes like any other ICE.
This means that most driving is done with a single foot, Brakes are only used for emergency stopping and the last mph or so when stopping. There is a point when pushing the 'gas' where the motor freewheels (no power, no regen). Below this point, you get variable drag from the powered rear wheels, above it, you put power to those wheels.
Performance power turns are accomplished by lightly letting off of the 'gas' to provide a little rear-wheel-only drag to maintain contact with the road (similar to the way tactical drivers use the emergency brake) or, if more g's can be tolerated, adding a little pressure to provide more torque. By not having to worry about shifting, you can concentrate on what's most important: exactly how much the wheels are slipping to get max speed and with both hands on the wheel, you can hold your lines much steadier and smoother. I'm not completely sure how the freewheel point will affect vehicle dynamics but I expect to find out EVentually.
Sure, a manual is fun to play with but if you are really looking at optimizing your vehicle dynamics control, the direct, positive, linear control of torque with one foot is incredible.
I confess I've just started driving this machine and only been on a closed autocross course once so I haven't fully explored what one can do with even more practice.
My first impressions tell me that soon I'll be happily watching your antique gear-shifters on the track or drag strip - in my rearview mirror :-)
I guess the only question will be how much guts I have to experiment with such an expensive new car.

Actually it is quite easy to rent automatics in Europe. They love it because they charge about 3 times as much for the rental. It helps them to maximize the prices to Americans and Asians tourists and business people while still offering affordable options to serve the locals.

Forget the horsepower of the 2005 civic, it's meaningless on a hybrid. You have got a lot more power than that 100hp, particularly in a Honda. Horsepower refers only to the power of the engine. The algorithms Honda came up with differ from Toyota's in that they act more or less exclusively as a power boost for acceleration, which is where you loose the most fuel anyway. If you really want horsepower, you shouldn't get a hybrid. The entire concept of a hybrid is reclaim kinetic energy lost while breaking and use it to scale down horsepower without skimping on things like acceleration.