Lithium Batteries & What They Mean
Created January 6, 2006, at 10:06 am by Anonymous
HybridCars.com ran this story about lithium ion batteries and what they could mean to hybrids and the auto industry:
http://www.hybridcars.com/lithium-ion-hybrid-batteries.html
What do you think?
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This months issue of Popular Science also talks about a new Lithium Ion Technology by Toshiba using Nanoparticle Batteries (Nano Technology) to allow the batteries to be charges in a matter of minutes (0% to 80% full) instead of the hours normally needed to charge them. The article says that they should appear in factories and cars in the next year. I would think that with the right types of energy recovery systems you should be able to run these types of batteries for much longer if not indefinetly.
Too bad whoever wrote the lithium battery article isn't a chemist: "...two enterprising companies...have had better results by replacing cobalt with other metals, such as phosphate."
Phosphate isn't a metal - it's an ion (technically an anion), which is typically combined with a metal, such as calcium phosphate (the main ingredient of bones) and iron phosphate (what Naval Jelly turns rust into).
The article also could have mentioned that the Segway Human Transporter uses Saphion lithium batteries from Valence.
What do everyone think about the edrive conversion for the Prius. It is supposed to be available in early 2006. I will believe it when I see it. The price is supposedly will be around $12,000 which is high. But that is alot cheaper than the 1 million price tag for a hydrogen car.
I will believe Edrive is actually going to come out with a commercialy available conversion when it actually happens. Right now their website is very vague.
Could just be an urban legend.
And anyone got any comments on why Valence has been in business for 10 years and has yet to turn a profit. I can understand a couple years, but 10 years? They now have a couple of good clients Segway, and now Oxygen Scooters, and maybe the mythical Edrive conversion. So they might be turning it around. But they have negative profit margins. When you sell more you aren't supposed reports more of a loss.
The subject here is about battery technology, but battery technology is only part of a bigger underlying subject. The real Holy Grail is our ability to store energy. Batteries currently look like the most likely technology but the bigger goal, it seems, is really energy storage.
Consumer electronics have driven battery technology to date because they are high-volume products that people are very willing to pay for. But batteries for hybrids, plug-in hybrids and good old electric vehicles have the potential to change the very way we think about and use energy. And as important as transportation is, the bigger accomplishment will not be a world full of hybrids but will be our ability to store and use energy in ways never before accomplished by humans.
The vehicle is simply the "vehicle" to drive battery technology, or some other electrical storage technology. Any battery capable of transporting people and goods from place to place also has the power to supply a home with its electrical needs. Multiply that powerful battery (or other electrical storage device) by many million and our entire energy system is transformed.
The grid to vehicle and vehicle to grid concept has been talked about before, but even this advanced concept looks like only part of a bigger picture. As vehicle needs force battery manufacturers to mass produce continually improving, larger capacity products, those products will become ubiquitous. A healthy and highly competitive industry will form in manufacturing, distributing and recycling. Superior batteries (or some other electrical storage systems) will not only greatly improve our vehicles, but also our homes and our businesses. How? Because millions of batteries in our vehicles and our homes have the potential to greatly smooth out our energy usage patterns. By efficiently storing electricity we not only improve the efficiency of our vehicles, we improve the efficiency of all our energy using methods. No one will need to buy a battery backup system for their computers because everyone will have a battery backup system for all their electrical needs. The biggest arguments leveled against wind power and solar power will become moot. Who cares if the wind doesn't blow all the time and who cares if the sun doesn't shine at night if those energies have been collected and safely stored for later use. Huge amounts of energy are currently wasted because of a lack of acceptable storage methods. Schemes such as pumping water back up into reservoirs try to address this issue but cannot compete with the immensity, efficiency and dependability of millions of individual electrical storage systems.
That's my opinion. Looking forward to holes being shot in it.
CalCars.og Tech Lead Ron Gremban's summary from last July at http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/priusplus/message/468 still gives our perspective, which, to summarize, is that "some Li-ion batteries out there already are usable in hybrids and plug-in hybrids (PHEVs)."
Car makers that say lithium is 3-5 years away are probably testing them right now -- we wish they'd tell us more about that! While CalCars is working on a project with Electro Energy Inc to show that the long-proven nickel-metal hydride batteries that car makers already use in hybrids could work for plug-in hybrids, we're also planning to put some of the newer li-ion batteries into cars as soon as possible.
The DaimlerChrysler/Electric Power Research Institute (EPRI) program is using Li-Ion in some of its Sprinter PHEV prototypes and is busy collecting and analyzing early data. EPRI will soon publish an Update on Advanced Batteries for Hybrid Electric Vehicles. Meanwhile, Bob Graham, EPRI's Director of Electric Transportation, in September summarized to me their views on the readiness and cost trends of batteries for PHEVs.
"EPRI comments publicly, which are based on our review of the current state of the advanced battery technology and our meetings with SAFT and VARTA the two suppliers to the PHEV Sprinter program, that advanced batteries will meet the requirements that we have established for a vehicle with 30 miles of all electric range. We are aware of no technical issues that would prevent advanced batteries from meeting PHEV operational needs. The major issue that must be overcome is the battery cost which our information shows is an issue of production volume.
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Major corporations such as Johnson Control and Chevron Texaco are active in the development of advanced batteries plus if one looks at the ability of the battery industry to meet the competitive and cost requirements of the computer and cell phone market, one can expect batteries for high volume transportation applications to also come down dramatically in cost."
don't know any more than the next person, but perhaps I can connect the dots that may have led Toyota to engineer a PHEV. This March Toshiba announced that it had developed a new lithium-ion battery technology, and, as stated in the press release, http://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2005_03/pr2901.htm that:
Toshiba will bring the new rechargeable battery to commercial products in 2006. Initial applications will be in the automotive and industrial sectors, where the slim, small-sized battery will deliver large amounts of energy while requiring only a minute to recharge. For example, the battery's advantages in size, weight and safety highly suit it for a role as an alternative power source for hybrid electric vehicles.
If Toshiba is on track commercially with this innovation in battery technology, then it seems to be an obvious fit for a PHEV to be built by Toyota. Indeed, it appears to be a rather compelling use-case.
Lee,
Agree on your approach for renewable
way based use of (solar) energy in (hopefully
near) future for transportation, household
energy supply and industrial production.
Holes are being shot while you are reading.
Most human (economical) activities are
performing the opposite.
I will name only one example:
Massive production of 'old' cars for and in the
republice of China by European and
American car companies:
Chinees government 'tries' to have more
small cars being built.(with an effort?)
They are crying for hybrids;
Prius will be built there.....(of course)
It hurts
The article is rather careless. In addition to the previously pointed out error in re phosphate, the caption under the periodic table snippet is misleading in at least two ways. First it says truly that hydrogen doesn't naturally exist on its own, then introduces lithium as something different without making the necessary point that in this respect it's exactly the same, also requiring a large input of energy, somewhat larger than the energy it will yield.
Also, lithium cannot simply be carried around; it reacts at room temperature with water, releasing hydrogen and forming the corrosive substance LiOH, similar to NaOH (lye, short for alkali. LiOH and NaOH are both alkalis; the metals in them are alkali metals). So someone who innocently tried to do a portage with a chunk of metallic lithium would soon drop it, probably with a loud outcry.
It doesn't seem right for such an article to omit any mention of AC Propulsion
(http://www.acpropulsion.com ), either.
--- Graham Cowan, former hydrogen fan
http://www.eagle.ca/~gcowan/Paper_for_11th_CHC.html
boron as energy carrier: real-car range, nuclear cachet
Lee Dekker: The battery or energy storage device you describe is a staple of science fiction. Whether it's a Shipstone (Friday - Robert Heinlein) or a Dilithium crystal (Star Trek), compact energy storage devices are usually not described in great detail - they're just quietly there.
I love the thought of Alternative Fuel. Unfortunately, In my opinion the battery/toxic is much more of a DANGER to our environment than the internal combustion engine. I have seen what ships have done to our ocean floor by discarding their batteries overboard. Nuclear energy is by far the cleanest energy source for the money but what do you do with spent rods? The same is for ANY car that relies on batteries and capacitors to store electricty. I am going to support a hydrogen resolve and not be fooled by the marketing of Toyota, GM and the rest....
It seems to me that we are on the verge of a new era in the use of batteries and supercapacitors for propelling our transportation vehicles. Valance, A123 and Toshiba have already made major contributions to Lithium Ion battery technology. Further advancements in applying nanotechnology to the electrodes may bring the technology to the point that it is much more economical.
It hasn't been pointed out the Li-ion batteries are lighter than other batteries which is important for fuel economy. Li-ion batteries are also potentially more economical to produce because they require less cells for the same amount of power. The economies of scale afforded by mass production are very attractive. The hybrid vehicle is not a mature technology and it takes time for all of the required components to reach maturity. Almost no one thought that they would sell so well. With this incentive the larger producers like Johnson Controls and Saft are now gearing up and will be able to capitalize on the achievements to date.
Another technology that has been advancing very rapidly in parallel to batteries is the supercapacitor. Supercapacitors can absorb the energy from regenerative braking much more efficiently than a battery, adding significantly to the fuel efficiently of a vehicle. They are especially suited to stop and start driveing and are becoming widely used in transit buses. They are lighter than batteries which adds to their attractiveness. Costs are coming down rapidly as the technology is improved and production volume increases. Only one manufacturer, Maxwell, has any significant presence in this market. Vehicles can now be made with no batteries, just a supercapacitor. While this only increases mileage a small amount, when a supercapacitor is wired in parallel to the battery pack their is significant synergy by reducing the size of the battery pack and increasing the amount of energy recovered from regenerative braking.
Yes, I have much more optimizium about battery technology and the future of electric and hybrid electric vehicles than I did just a year ago.
u mention johnson controls as the only USA player in the production of batteries .. what about ENER
energy conversion devices...they are from michigan ..last time i checked that was still in the usa ?
seems that its their technology that is in the prius and civic u talk about so much ..
GM USING USA MADE BATTERIES
FROM COBASYS
http://www.cleveland.com/printer/printer.ssf?/base/business/1136626433227560.xml ?bates&coll=2
GM finally takes a green view
2007 Saturn SUV boasts hybrid system
Sunday, January 08, 2006
Christopher Jensen
Plain Dealer Auto Editor
This article is about Lithium batteries or batteries in general but we shouldn't forget they are just means of soring energy. Where's the energy from?
Just read the article about the concept car Reflex from Ford with solar panels on the roof to recharge the batteries, at the same time reduce the heat of the car if you park it under the sun. Solar power is free and if you can lower the cost of solar panels, it's really a very good idea and Japanese car companies should learn from that. If the panels works well enough, we can also forget "Plug In" vehicles.
Sean, we've discussed solar panels here on hybridcars.com before. They're essentially useless because it would take many thousands of square feet of solar cells to power an automobile. See the article and pictures at http://www.speedace.info/sunraycer_general_motors.htm which describes Sunraycer, an ultralight one-person solar-cell-powered "automobile."
Pedmac, I finally got around to reading the Cleveland Plain Dealer article you posted about the 2007 Saturn Hybrid SUV - thanks for posting it.
Wow, a whole 5 HP electric motor on this "hybrid"! This is pitiful - looks like the geniuses at GM have struck again.
Photovoltaics can't currently come close to providing motive power for vehicles. But photovoltaics on vehicles are far from useless. Just keeping the insides of our vehicles cool on sweltering days would be a worthwhile benefit. Applied to the top of refrigerated delivery vans, photovoltaics could provide much or all of the energy needed to run the refrigeration unit. And recreational vehicles are able to benefit greatly from the electricity provided by rooftop photovoltaics.
http://www.earthroamer.com/main_truck/vehicle_2meangreen.html
Lee, I'll admit photovoltaics are not _completely_ useless. But your EarthRoamer doesn't exactly seem economical: "Typical prices for completed 2006 model year EarthRoamer XV-LTs range from about $190,000 to over $200,000." That's pretty pricey for a pickup-mounted camper shell.
RE: Energy Storage Problem: About 13 years ago, IEEE Journal devoted half an issue to electric propulsion systems and analysed all the battery systems on the market or then forseeable. They concluded none had the energy or power density needed for all-electric vehicles (no mention of hybrids back then). They also had a sidebar about a different kind of energy storage: not a chemical storage battery, but a MECHANICAL storage battery. It was a proposal from a professor at Stanford Univ for a high-speed flywheel made of cabon fiber and resin that depended on its high speed rather than a high mass to boost energy storage (recall E=mv^2, so increaseing speed has much greater effect than increasing mass of the flywheel).
Because it spins so fast it would have to be in a vacuum can and run on magnetic bearings for low friction. It should have the long life of a sealed refrigerator compressor. A motor /generator in each modular storage unit would be used to put energy in or take it out of the flywheel. (Magnetic bearings are just coming into use for commercial water chillers, and large flywheel enery storage are available for commercial computer UPS systems)
One advantage over chemical batteries and fuel cells is that in a serious accident no toxics or high temperature chemicals are released, and you don't have a lot of energy in a heavy spinning mass that emits shrapnel. The carbon fiber flywheel turns into a fluffy mass like cotton candy when ruptured. Best of all, this system would rival gasoline in its energy and power density, something no battery could do.
The professor admitted that these things would be a technical challenge to build, but they were not magic, and we have lots of aerospace companies who often face difficult technical challenges. But I have seen almost no R&D along these lines. Another technology where the US could excel, but no one has taken up the challenge
Flywheel energy density is inevitably far below 5 percent that of gasoline. A full gasoline tank is over 80 percent gasoline by mass, and therefore can deliver more than 10 thermal kWh/kg. Carbon fibre going a mile a second -- it probably wouldn't really go that fast, for at that speed it would be too close to breaking stress. What if an insect hit the windshield? -- would hold 0.36 kWh/kg, but could never be 80 percent of the flywheel system mass. Four times less, maybe.
But its kinetic energy could be efficiently converted not only into a very sudden blast of friction heat if it broke and slid to a halt on the massive heat sink that would have to be there, but into propulsion energy. Maybe three times more efficiently than the gasoline's energy can be. That would take back some, which I approximate as all, of the factor of four lost to low mass fraction.
This very optimistic reckoning yields an estimate that a 100-kg flywheel system would yield 3.6 percent as many vehicle kilometres as a 100-kg gas tank. That is why, after the IEEE magazine article's optimism on flywheels, there has followed 13 years of nothing.
--- Graham Cowan, former hydrogen fan
boron as energy carrier: real-car range, nuclear cachet
Gene,
There was a lot of research done in flywheels throughout the late '90's. One particular effort that went out was Rosen motors, a company set up by Ben Rosen (CEO of Compac computers) and his brother Harold Rosen (father of the geo-stationary communications satellite and founder of the former Hughes Space and Communications Division). They went a long way with flywheels but ended up disolving the company when they ran out of money. My recollection is that they found that:
- this sort of flywheels has very high specific power(w/kg) but not particularly good specific energy (wH/kg). Ie, they are great for storing energy to provide a huge kick but they aren't good for storing energy for going long distances
- gyroscopic effect of a fast rotating object is very bad with flywheels in moving vehicles, particularly quickly accelerating ones like passenger cars. This required very sophisticated mounting schemes.
- the 'turn to dust' idea is a hard sell and my not be totally true, especially when one has to design the rotor to stand up to the gyroscopic effect
- the costs of building flywheels that are strong enough to spin fast enough are very high, with little room to improve
- I seem to recall that there were other issues as well.
I believe that these looked like a good thing but didn't quite fit the bill, especially when compared with things such as super-capacitors (for high specific power) and the new battery technologies that were coming online at the time such as NiMH and Li-ion.
It is amazing how technology advances when there is desire from many sources.
Does the obsticle of "Thermal Runaway" still not exist and is a problem when Lithium batteries reach a temperature of 130C turning them into a ball of fire or worse an explosion?
Ni-MH batteries as far as I know, are the only battery that can be disposed of in your local landfill. Anyone?
Cars powered by the same batteries as Notebook computers and cellphones. Not to sound negative but, since when have these batteries lived up to their claims on how long they last.
comment on the thermal runaway and the disposable nature of batteries.
I am not an engineer but valence says that thier phosphate based U-Charge system is safe from thermal run away and also envirnmentally safe.
check www.valence.com for details
John,
Thermal runaway was solved by placing a control chip (~$0.01) on each Li-ion cell. Lots of things in will get uncomfortable if heated to 130C. If you are afraid of that, you should see what the gasoline you have in your hybrid can do under adverse conditions (like a little static discharge). We can, however, learn to handle these things safely.
Seriously though, there were some big problems with the 1st Li-ion batteries used in laptop computers (cell phones held off until the problems were solved) but these were solved using the control chips and to this date, with over 500million cellphones being sold each year, the only documented cases of meltdown were with cheap after-market batteries that were slipped in after the phones left the manufacturers.
I also don't know why you think Li batteries would be any more of a landfill problem than lead-acid ones - and mandatory recycling programs have essentially eliminated both the disposal problem with these as well as the lead supply problem.
Battery user:
Is it the battery manufacturers or the cellphone/computer manufactureres who are over-exagerating the lifetimes? With a 100:1 difference in power draw between cellphone modes and a 10:1 difference between computer operating modes, there is a lot of room for creative performance measurement or creating optimal conditions under which (conveniently) to measure.
Having been in both businesses, I can assure you that it is much easier to accurately verify the capacity of a battery than the power drawn by a computer or cellphone under 'normal' conditions.
Thanks to all for your reply.
Any and all ideas or practices that improve the world's energy situation are worth consideration. Often, differing energy improvement ideas are able to work well with each other. The Prius not only combined an electric motor with a gasoline engine but also incorporated advanced aerodynamics, low rolling resistance and various other methods into a single vehicle. It's good to focus on and put our effort into the best ideas but not to reject others because we found a good one.
The point of adding the link about the Earth Romer was to point to the energy efficiency of the unit and specifically to the photovoltaics on top. As stated in the literature, the builders of this vehicle leave its freezer stocked at all times. When they take it on a trip, it's ready to go. Even though it may have been parked for months. This is a neat trick and accomplished with the use of photovoltaics. No propane. No plugging into the grid. Just passively keeping the batteries hi and the freezer cold until they're ready to be used.
Batteries, capacitors, flywheels, hydraulic boosts, biofuels, photovoltaics, you name it, they all have a place. But for now, batteries look most likely to succeed (at least on the largest scale) and therefore probably deserve our continued scrutiny more than any other current option.
Thank you for a great education on out upcoming fight on clean air and independence of third world countries. who ownes all these chemicals that convert these new bried of energy.
Lithium batteries are clearly critical to getting off oil transport. There is no doubt that they offer a power / weight ratio far better than any other battery technology. I hypothesize that several aspects of them need to be in place to allow an effective price-competitive car to be manufactured:
- they apparently have issues in delivering sudden surges of power. Possibly supercapacitators can help here
- they are too expensive - we can only hope that better design and more R&D can resolve this. In this context if the US Government invested the same R&D into lithium as it has into hydrogen - well this would help.
- in the above context my understanding is that there are no fundamental reasons why lithium batteries should be expensive. Unlike Nickel-Hydride the patents are widely held so there should be the same issues as exist with the Cobalsys patents. The raw materials are plentiful and cheap
- I think we need to be thinking in terms of an electric car which has a small petrol generator which backs up the battery. Perhaps a 200cc motor which delivers say 20k/w. This shouldn't be too heavy
- finally I would suggest that the vehicle is modular. That is, it can battery packs as complete units. That way I could choose between keeping the price to an absolute minimum (one battery pack) or go for say 3 packs for rather more money and get rather more range. Likewise the generator could be a modular unit.
A truly interesting question would be what would be the price point of this vehicle?
Yes. Lithium batteries could hold the key to solving our future fuel problems for transportation. In the current debate on future fuels, the obstacles of providing suitable refuelling infrastructure for hydrogen-powered vehicles is often overlooked. The infrastructure for plug-in- hybrids is already in place and widespread public battery recharging facilities can be provided on demand at relatively low cost. Hence a seamless transfer from gas/diesel-powered vehicles to mainly electric powered hybrid vehicles will be possible following a breakthrough in Lithium battery development.
Laszlo Gyenes
Crowthorne, UK
YES! Modular batteries for plug-in hybrids is a great idea. Why not be able to choose between a 10, 20 or 30 mile all electric range? Why not be able to add all electric range in increments?
Batteries are obviously well-suited to a modular approach.
this sucks
I could see the day when we could have energy pick-ups embedded in the road beds to keep these batteries charged and be charged monthy for the energy consumed.
Tomy
I believe that these batteries are a better, safer thing for the environment and for pocketbooks also. You could put them in a pocket bike or even hot pockets. If you put one in your pocket, it might get in your locket.
"Beyond Tomorrow" showed a company in Los Angeles making autos usibg lithium battery packs to power hybrid motor to speeds of 90 mph. Also showed electric motocycle that could keep up with gasoline motorcycle. Does anyone have information on that company? Scienc channel website not responding.
I don't know exactly what the Science Channel may have shown, however, there are several electric dragsters that hold there own against the ICE (Internal Combustion Engine) ones. There are also 2 companies that have street legal pure EV's that out class any production ICE vehicles. One is AC Propulsion's t-zero that can travel 200 miles on a charge of it's Li-ion batteries. It also can accelerate from 0-60 in under 4 seconds. Wrightspeed's X1 pure EV has similiar performance. See:
http://www.acpropulsion.com/LiIon_tzero_release.pdf
http://www.acpropulsion.com/ACP_tzero/SEMAtrip2003.htm
http://www.wrightspeed.com
for more info
I saw the Beyond Tomorrow piece too, and I believe it was hybridtechnologies that makes it.
http://www.hybridtechnologies.com/
I would like to build an electric car, but I can't seem to find anyone who sells the kind of battery packs that hybrid technologies uses on their Crossfire electric car. They use a DC motor, while AC propulsion (hehe) uses AC. Anyone know where to buy the lithium ion battery packs like they showed in the Beyond Tomorrow piece? How much do they cost?
Here is another electric car using lithium ion batteries that goes 230 mph! This was also featured on Beyond Tomorrow".
http://www.eliica.com/
Do not you think that plug in batteries will not solve our environmental problem as long as we are getting electricity from coal power stations?
Inaki,
The use of coal to generate electricity has been used quite often to shoot down plug-in vehicles but except for the sound bite, it falls apart pretty quickly for the following reasons:
1. Coal power plants can be scrubbed to nearly eliminate their toxic and particulate emissions. One stack is a lot easier to control than 10 million tailpipes. This leaves only the CO2 which is a Green-House Gas (GHG) problem (see #2 below).
2. Plug-in electric vehicles, when charged from grid electricity can be more than 4 times as efficient as Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) powered vehicles. This reduces but does not eliminate the GHG issue of coal.
3. Electricity does not have to be generated from coal. There are many new and old alternative ways to generate electricity, all of which can simply be added to the existing grid, reducing the need for coal bit-by-bit. Plug-in vehicles can take advantage of all of these alternatives which include but are not limited to (hydroelectric, solar, geo-thermal, bio-fuel, tidal, wind, nuke, . . . ).
4. A plug-in vehicle can take advantage of these alternatives without having to redesign the vehicle to handle a different kind of fuel as one has to do to use a different kind of fuel on an ICE vehicle (eg: gasoline -> CNG, gasoline -> ethanol, gasoline -> bio-diesel, etc).
Some fans of trolleybuses in Europe and N.A. are recommending li-ion batteries as auxiliary power plants for off-wire running to get round obstacles e.g. road works. The batteries would be topped up from the overhead power cables. Is this flawed thinking? Lloyd W.
I can certainly see how storing a bit of energy in trolley buses might enable them to briefly leave the catenary system, however:
- The driver would then have to re-attach which can take a few minutes
- If the unconnected times are very small, Li-ion batteries might not be the most cost effective solution. Perhaps Pb-A batteries, Super capacitors, or flywheel systems would be good for only a few minutes at a time. Li-ion or NiMH batteries are great for lightweight storage of a lot of electricity but not so great for quick discharge situations.
I always used to fantasize about putting a pair of trolley poles on my EV1 when I drove it in San Francisco to grab a few amps from the trolley bus cables :-)
Has anyone heard any more about the advanced lead-acid batteries produced by Firefly Energy, the offshoot of Caterpillar? In January 2006, there was public announcement of the patent for the company. A carobon compositite is substituted for half the lead and reportedly diminishes many of the problems associated with lead-acid batteries (weight, corrosion, abiltity to recycle enhanced, cost, capacity).
What is the life of one of these batteries, and if one were to fail, what would it cost to replace. Where are all of the old failed batteries going to be stored and finally, what is the the environmental impact of this waste.
It kinda makes me wonder: If lithium ion batteries are all that, then why some scientists are also researching Ultracapacitor technology? Will it be superior to batteries?
Capacitors generally have the property that they don't store a lot of energy (per mass or volume) but they are able to charge and discharge very fast, efficiently, and have no cycle life issues as are found in chemical based batteries. Another issue with capacitors is that there is a huge voltage swing between fully charged and empty that can pose challenges to the controller design.
Since energy storage is so important to vehicle design and efficiency, all plausible possibilities should be looked at without excluding any.
The thermal runaway problem has been solved. Manufacturing costs will go down and most of the battery production will be in China. Lithium is not so toxic as lead commonly used in automotive batteries. Lithium batteries can be recycled.
Super capacitors can be used for automotive electrical functions that are intermittent like raising and lowering windows or antennas.
Restaurant fry oil and grease as well as oil skimmed from city sewer systems can be used to augment petroleum diesel in clean burn diesel hybrids.
Charging plug in hybrids from coal burning utilities off peak does not increase any pollution from the electric power plant. Charging plug in hybrids during sunny, utility peak times, unburdens the utility when solar modules are used. The solar is on parking covers so the car does not bake in the sun. The concept could be expanded to vehicle to grid and help cities avoid rolling blackouts. Nearly impossible to get a summer utility peak demand without bright sun. Solar electricity is already less expensive than $3/gallon fuel.
I just ran across a company that is pretty confident that they will be the first to mass produce and sell lithium batteries to the US car makers. It's Ener1, ticker symbol ENEI. Can any of you who are a little more educated in this area grant an opinion on their technology? I'm not quite sure how it works. They were given a grant from US Cars to work on this battery just recently and in the webcast of their presentation at equity magazine, the Chairman states that they already have a purchase order for the samples that will lead to a purchase order for the battery next year.
No url
I've been in the ev car business since the late 90's and we have a saying about battery claims. "There are liars, damn lairs, and battery suppliers."
In response to the comment about liars and battery suppliers, at a September, California ZEV symposium, on the same day that a power point presentation from Toyota said present batteries are not technologically or economically feasible for PHEV, there was a PhD battery guy saying his Titanium nano technology battery would (my words) get the job done.
So what's the truth? I work with Pb batteries in solar systems every day and priced a Li-Phosphate equivalent at about ten times the price of Lead although about half the weight and better cycle life.
If the Toyota comment is based on what I was quoted, I have to agree with Toyota. If there really is an economical battery out there, let's see it.
On the other hand, having been in the solar electricity business since 1982, I have heard about low cost solar (made from unobtainium) ever since up to today. Nevertheless, solar electricity is less expensive than $3/gallon gasoline and if it got the same subsidies as oil, it would be even less expensive. No way do we have a level playing field here.
Ther is already an existence of a breakthrough in 42 volts battery pack, fast charged in 10 minutes, 20 years plus battery life, met Dept. of Transportation DOE baseline standards for Lithium Ion 42 volts battery pack, safe on all temperature conditions, environmentally safe cause it made the cathodes practically inert freeing it from chemical reactions volatility, it's light, able to configure in what ever size the manufacture specify. The company called Altair Nanotech, the battery pack is called the Nano-Safe Battery.
Hello there, I have here an article which I lifted from the net which tells about the capacity of a hybrid car battery...Hope this might help...
LiMnO2 hybrid battery cells deliver longer life, higher capacity
By Paul O'Shea
Courtesy of eeProductCenter
(08/23/2007 3:34 PM EDT)
Fair Lawn, N.J. — Maxell Corporation of America has introduced its next-generation of lithium manganese dioxide (LiMnO2) cylindrical hybrid battery cells with longer life and higher capacity for automatic meter readers, security devices and RF applications. These advanced hybrid cells will operate for more than 10 years and offer about nine percent higher capacity compared to similar cells currently available.
The CR17450 and CR17335 cells, designed to industry standard sizes, are laser sealed and exhibit a low self-discharge making them suitable for long-term extended life applications of 10+ years. The wide operational temperature range of -40° to +80°C with an improved heatproof temperature of +90°C to 100° C and internal minute short-circuit prevention are said to make these cells intrinsically safe.
The CR17450 offers a typical capacity of 2600 mAh, while the CR17335 provides a typical capacity of 1750 mAh. The cells offer a voltage rating of 3.0 volts and feature a stable sloping discharge curve at various depths of discharge, allowing for accurate prediction of end of life.
The CR17450 measures 17 mm in diameter and 45 mm in length and weighs 22g. The CR17335 also has a diameter of 17 mm with a 33.5-mm length and weighs 16g.
The CR17450 and CR17335 cells will be displayed for the first time at the AMRA 2007 (Automatic Meter Reader Association) show in Reno, Nev., October 1-3, 2007. Maxell will also attend the AISI Security Show in Las Vegas, Nev., September 24-26.
As a hybrid car owner, I am well satisfied with its performance as well as with its auto parts like my honda computer chip and of course, its battery and its other accessories...
Pricing: Samples are priced in the $5.00 range with a delivery of 60 to 90 days.
Product information: CR17450 and CR17335
Maxell Corporation of America, maxell.com
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