Hybrids versus biodiesel; who's cleaner?
Created February 13, 2005, at 4:32 pm by Anonymous
Hey all. I need to buy a new car, and am primarily interested in buying something that has as minimal an impact as possible on the environment over the lifespan of the car (car manufacturing, fuel production impact, lifetime driving, disposal).
So, my question is: Which one is cleaner? Biodiesel (e.g. a Jetta TDI), or a hybrid such as a Prius or a Civic? I'll be driving in pretty typical city conditions.
Thanks!
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One thing to consider is the availability of biodiesel where you live. If biodiesel is available, and you are inclined to take the extra steps necessary to use biodiesel only, then that is probably the cleanest choice.
If you think you might tire of traveling to the biodiesel source to get your fuel, due to inconvenience or whatever, and would eventually opt for regular diesel, then a hybrid is probably a better bet. That is, at least until 'clean' regular diesel is available in the US.
Bear in mind that you may have just started a flame war. I think I will now retreat to safety ... :-)
A flame war I can deal with. I'm just completely at a loss when it comes to a definitive answer of which one is better, overall, for the environment -- there seems to be a lot of conflicting information out there, and no clear answer.
Am I the first one ever to decide between a hybrid and a biodiesel car? Come on! :( Why is it so hard to try and be a Good Person?
(And yes, I can get to a B100 source very easily.)
What is "clean" desil? here in the UK we have desel but no bio-desel
(sorry about spelling)
Actually there is bio-diesel in the UK. Several farms in the north are producing it. Guardian (who else?!) had article last month.
But like here in USA - availability to microscopic.
Key for me is emissions. Look at the # of lbs of emissions car is putting into environment.
BTW - I love my Honda Civic Hybrid. I've discovered the cruise-control is the secret to high MPG - as it optimizes the electric motor and IMA better than the gas pedal does! Currently 45.4 mpg in a cold week in Maryland, rain, snow, slush - lovely!
Re: "clean" diesel.
I think that when most people mention "clean" diesel, they are referring to "ultra-low sulfur diesel", which apparently cuts dramatically the badness of diesel exhaust.
In the US, it is not available, and consequently a number of states (including mine, California) do not allow the currrent diesel cars (e.g. VW TDI models) to be sold.
W get ultra low sulpher here every where
Diesel can be not that great for the environment in the short term. It can emit alot of particulates (soot) and nitrogen oxidse. OTOH, diesels emit less carbon monoxide, hydrocarbons, benzene, carbon dioxide, etc.. Lower carbon dioxide is better for the planet in the long term. You can add stuff called "cetane booster" to diesel fuel that will cut soot alot, and NOx (nitrogen oxide) a little. You can also run a blend of biodiesel in a diesel car, and biodiesel emits very little new CO2 into the atmosphere. Biodiesel is cheaper and easier to make than ethanol for gas, as well, and it makes much less soot than regular diesel.
Hybrid cars, OTOH, will emit less tailpipe pollutants like soot and nitrogen oxides- alot less. However, they will still produce more CO2 than a diesel car burning a blend with 20 percent biodiesel, or more. Hybrid cars usually have higher pricetags than a diesel, and they will not last as long as a diesel car. A diesel engine can easily last a half-million miles before they have to be rebuilt (that's why big trucks run diesel engines, they will last 750,000- 1 million miles before an overhaul). A hybrids battery, OTOH, will not last much beyond 180,000 miles, and the engine will probably start to degrade by then, too. For the average driver, it's probably not a factor, but if you drive alot long distances, a diesel might be a better buy. Especially because diesels have very good highway performance, in some cases, identical to a hybrid.
One thing I wanted to know when I was looking for a more fuel efficient car: can a hybrid run a blend of gasoline with ethanol? I asked a Honda dealer, and they said they didn't know, but they thought it was a bad idea.
Unless you have a FFV - that is, a Flexible Fuel Vehicle, you cannot run fuel that contains more than 10% ethanol. It should actually be in your owners manual in fact. Some people have reported that their manuals state 15%, but generally 10% ethanol is as high as you can go. To run E85 or E95 (85% and 95% ethanol) you need an FFV or a vehicle specifically designed to run such a high percentage of ethanol.
ULSD diesel is available in many places in California and the Pacific northwest, as well as a few locations on the east coast- it will be available everywhere in the US by 2006. Using ULSD will improve the pollution somewhat in the average diesel car or truck, but for big improvements, they will have to specificly design new catalysts and particle traps for future car models (they will not be retrofitted except for fleets and municipal busses). The sulfur poisons these advanced catalytic converters.
In Europe right now they have ultra low sulfur diesel at 50ppm (the US is aiming for 50-15ppm gradual phase in). All the new Volkswagens have the particle traps and catalysts. They slowly oxidize the particulates while you drive, and occassionally use an afterburner to purge the filters. You can't get those in the US, though all the VW's in the US have emission controls in them, such as exhaust gas recirculators and catalytic converters.
In the 70's, they didn't come out with unleaded because they wanted to get rid of lead (airplanes still use leaded gasoline). They came out with unleaded gas because the lead was poisoning the catalytic converters in gas cars (BTW, Honda's cars didn't even need catalytic converters for many years, because they were so efficient). The lead added to gas was actually added as an octane booster. Now they use ethanol or MTBE.
A diesel engine such as the TDI in a US late model Jetta or New Beetle emits about only 90-95 percent of the pollution than a diesel did 20 years ago. Diesel cars aren't smoke belching monsters anymore. Traditional pollutantion in auto exhaust has basicly been solved and any further emission reductions will be very costly with diminishing returns. OTOH, CO2 emissions from vehicle are probably as high or higher than they were 20 years ago. Europe has tended to favor fuel economy and CO2 reduction over worrying about aggressively controlling pollution- they are reducing diesel exhaust pollution, but they also are working with the industry in something more than an adversarial role, which is something that cannot be said for the EPA and CARB in California. As a result, Europe is on schedule to meet their Kyoto treaty obligations. The US hasn't even signed the Kyoto treaty.
The big danger is that diesel technology will not be able to meet the 2007 and 2009 EPA and carb goals. Meeting CARB's limits on diesel pollution will require an engine that emits 95 percent less pollutants than a diesel of today. I just don't see how that's possible without seriously compromising fuel economy or performance. The EPA and CARB may well have to moderate their stance, or they will end up with diesel being nonviable. And that will cause serious economic harm to the whole country (since most everything you buy in stores comes via diesel, gasoline engines just are not an acceptabe substitute).
Just a note on CO2 production, biodiesel effectively produces zero CO2 when viewed from a lifecycle standpoint. If you want to get very high level, biodiesel is basically liquid solar power. It's mainly made from plants which by photosynthesis and CO2 consumption grow into something that can be harvested to produce biodiesel. From that standpoint, the only fuel that can compete with biodiesel is Ethanol, which is generally less cost effective than biodiesel.
I'm not worried that they'll be able to meet the new guidelines. Stuff shipped by truck generally means fleet vehicles that cost anywhere from $40k for a small, short-hop delivery truck to $500,000 for a long haul truck. The fuels can be cleaned up enough to make emissions controls possible without things like sulpher poisening and clogging the emissions controls. Then even if you spend $5000 for an industrial catalytic converter on a semi, it's a one-time, 1% addition to the cost of the vehicle in exchange for radically reducing it's polution output. That's worth spending money for.
But add the costs of these catalytic converters to cars and you might have a car priced out of the market. There is debate as to wheather it is even achievable with diesel engines, which is why GM, Ford, Toyota, etc. have been playing it very conservatively with diesel in the US. Only VW has stayed in the diesel car market, and it's been a rocky last few years, with only the smaller cars having a steady presence as emission standards tighten, yet fuel standards don't improve (perhaps Volkswagen should sue somebody- the refiners or the government, for lost profits).
Soot is a byproduct of internal combustion engines. Gasoline engines of course emit less, but where is it going to end? The fact is that diesel exhaust was declared a Class-A carcinogen by a highly biased panel of experts based on only a few studies- ignoring studies that didn't show any correlation at all (eg., a study of NY firefighters finding no correlation to years spent working around diesel vehicles vs. cancer rate). Is it going to be like second hand smoke; no official "safe" limit? You are going to have to put alot more emissions controls on vehicles to make them "clean" enough to appease people who believe that environmental factors are a significant cancer threat (and they aren't- the biggest cause of cancer is genetics, followed by diet and lifestyle).
I'm in the same position. I've concluded that biodiesel is 'cleaner' and 'better'.
Hybrids still use fossil fuel. That means fuel that has been transported a long way already, at enormous social and environmental cost.
A very efficient diesel gets better mpg than a hybrid, with fuel that is produced more locally, that is renewable, and that adds no extra carbon dioxide to the atmosphere.
I'm going to have to make my own biodiesel which is a hassle. If you can get it nearby, so much the better.
The difficulty is in the definition of 'cleaner'.
I actually am using both - I have a diesel van (Toyota Coaster as a camper) and I'm lucky enough to live near a retail outlet with Biodiesel. I also have a Prius.
The ideal would obviously be a diesel hybrid, but I understand that some european manufacturers have been trying and found it much harder with diesel than gasoline.
The emissions from a biodiesel vehicle will be mostly CO2 as the fuel itself is reasonably clean. There should be little soot and other nasties. It should be noted that Biodiesel is not a single standard fuel but will vary by crop, location, season, style of processing and other factors. The use of second hand oil introduces an unknown and variable list of additional chemicals.
There are perhaps significant differences in the application that should be considered.
My Prius is excellent for commuter travel - the hybrid excells in stop-start conditions and the hills where we are.
The diesel Coaster we tend to use for longer trips 100's to 1000's km and it just loves to cruise for hours - where the hybrid is really just extra weight.
So until a diesel hybrid is available perhaps the question should be what kind of driving are you doing? Stop/start pick the hybrid - cruising go for diesel.
One problem. The most common form of biodiesel is B20. That's only 20 percent biofuel, and 80 percent petroleum diesel.
In order to run more than 20 percent biofuel you have to modify the vehicle with such things as tank heaters to keep your fuel from congealing on you.
I would say that biodiesel would be better. Yours desil will problibly last you most of your life. Another thing is that if you buy a desil and use biodesil you can buy a kit to convert it to pure vegtable oil. The car starts and shuts off on desil or biodesil and then runs on pure vagtable oil. VEgtable oil is cleaner thatn desil or biodesil. Yoy may ask why would i do this 1 Litre of vegtable oil costs you $6-7 canadian? But i am sure all or most know a resteraunt that uses vegtable oil and they may give it away to you because they usally have to pay a throw out fee. So you would be helping them. There are so many fast food resteraunts or anyresteraunt that makes deepfried food like fries. Mcdondalds,BK ,wendies, DQ,A&W,7-11, and so many more. Also you could grow vegtable oil. If you have a garden like i do plant some un-food grade corn the one that feeds cows and make it into vegtable oil. If anyone is interested in this idea
go to www.greasecar.com
If you compared a Jetta Diesel getting 36mpg runnign on bio-Diesel to an Escape Hybrid getting 32 mpg, I think the bio-Diesel wins with a lot less emissions plus on the build side, no battery which is a production/disposal problem.
Comparing the Jetta Diesel to the Prius, the bio-Diesel comes pretty close to matching the Prius on emissions, again less impact with the bio-Diesel Jetta on production/disposal since no battery make or dispose of in the life cycle.
Jetta has a top crash rating from Isurance Institute also.
you do not have to modify any of the new diesel cars to run b100 (100% biodiesel)
there are several stations around my area that carry b100. I use it all of the time in my 2004 jetta tdi
even in the winter the b100 works well.
plus my MPG for hwy is 50 and i get 40-45 mpg driving around d.c. when im commuting.
plus the biodiesel is less expensive.
Note that biodiesel is typically only a small fraction of the diesel fuel. Yes it's emissions are 10x cleaner but diesel is really realy nasty compared to LPG or even gasoline.
If you can do it - make your own 100% biodiesel and don't mix in any petrolium products at all. That would give you the cleanest option that is available now esp with the new VWs that get exceptional milage.
http://NonProfitFuel.ca
I expect big changes in hybrids as they eventually start to make some that get good milage. The technology is currently new and not suited to low emissions - it's simply lower emissions than our current gas guzzlers.
You pay thru the nose, you take a gamble and you're not much cleaner.
You can make much more signif changes thru your lifestyle. Drive less, bicycle to work or use public transit. Read Your Money Or Your Life sometime!
I've been told burning pure bio releases 1/3 the greenhouse gases of the best hybird.
I can run mine in the garage, with the door closed,
and not even get a wiff of exhaust.
There also way more fun to drive.
ok i don't know if you guys answered this yet or not but i was wondering what kind of trucks had a deasil engine due to the fact that's what i want instead of the cars that you have to use unleaded fuel and premium unleaded fuel, i just need a name of a truck i myself am looking for a four door cab pick up truck with a deasil engine so i can go on a road trip this upcomming summer. Anyone have any ideas? and if i spelled anything wrong please excuse it.
both ford and gm sell diesel trucks. the mpg will not be great,but better than gas
After Constant research, I belive that the answer is quite clear that Bio-Diesel is more cleaner than Hybrid cars, because Bio-Diesel releases fewer admissions than a Hybrid.
Dude hybrids are awesome you get better milge. Bio-desil may be cheaper but u get better milage with the hybrid.
After round the clock research i have come to the conclusion that the Hybrid is more fuel effecint. They are not hard to come by either. They get around 45 mpg in slush and snow! I think that the hybrid is a very good choice in buying a car. To be honest THEY ROCK
Brian,
Almost a year has past and I am now trying to make this same decision.....Prius or Jetta TDI? What did you decide?????
B.
I had this problem a few days ago. Then I found out that my state of residency, ie Massachusetts, outlaws dealers from selling new diesel cars. So much for that. Now my current dilemma is Prius, HCH, or Toyo Matrix (which has a decent mpg) or try and find some high mpg car. Ridiculous.
MontyK
I bought the Pontiac Vibe (exact same car as the Toyota Matrix - just different exterior styling) instead of the hybrids I was considering, and I don't regret it. It's a great car, and gets great MPG (I actually get the EPA ratings with this car). It's too bad diesel isn't an option for you... hopefully that'll change in the near future.
Here are 2 web sites that provide mpg (and other) data on current (and prior year) autos.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov
http://www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk/search
The VCACAR site will allow you to compare emissions data between gasoline, diesel and hybrids. I remember seeing the Prius and Insight in their database. When you do any comparison use only Euro Standard IV, the latest emission standards for Europe.
I am trying to compare the S02 emissions for Hybrids versus non-Hybrids. Do you have any idea how to do this or what it is? Ideally I would like to know (generally speaking) on average how many fewer SO2 emissions per mile I will get on my Hybrid versus non-Hybrid.
Thanks!
Randy, it's a direct proportion based on MPG - isn't it?
Keep in mind-whoever it was that said oil has to be pumped & transported- to great damage to the environment- that biodiesel, although carbon neutral, comes from somewhere. Massive fields of soy (in the U.S. most bio is virgin), mean that native grasses, prairie, or forest are plowed under- wetlands drained, fertilizers applied etc... to grow the oilseeds to make the diesel- at this stage- that is how most biodiesel is made.
Yeah oil is damaging as well- especially the wars we fight for it, but to critters who lived in the meadow before it got plowed under, or who'd like to live in it as it lay fallow, or to the folks who live downstream from the farms, biodiesel isn't 100% free of the damaging infrastructure attributed to oil.
In any regard, efficient is better, hybrids are definately cleaner out the tailpipe, but less carbon offset. In sum- anything's better than a Hummer (the car).
P.S. My rockband neighbors (the Thermals) just turned down a $55,000 offer to use their tune in a hummer commercial- and they aren't rich.
I like my diesel f-250 6.0liter but I cant run higher than 15-20% mix or it will not run well at all. I think biodeisel is great but it is complicated to deal with. My tractors runs on it too, but they suffer the same problem as my truck.
If you are not interested in messing with the science of mixing fuels and having to tweak your car and all, I would go with hybrid technology.
The problem I see is that the public needs to be educated better on alternativre fuels and power systems. The days of the good old v-8 are going away but were in this transition phase which is difficult.
PS:There are a lot of really smart people writing in this thread. I am very impressed at the knowledge base here.
Besides the environmental aspects does anyone out there have an opinion as to which runs better in snow and cold whether?
Ed Zuckerman,
"Does a diesel or a hybrid "run better" in cold weather.
"Run better" can mean a lot of things.
I have owned several diesels and I live in a cold climate (occasionally 15 below zero).
The VW rabbit diesel could be a bear to start. And diesel fuel could turn to jelly and not run. This was true of all diesels of that time. You needed a block heater or some other device.
The diesel engine has been reinvented.
My '96 VW diesel Passat TDI(stands for Turbo Direct Injection). This past winter we reached 10-15 below zero one night and I intentionaly left the car outdoors to see if it would start in the morning. It took about 30 seconds for the yellow glow plug light to go out. It groaned and turned over a bit but didn't start. Another attempt and it was turning over but didn't start. The third attempt was successful. The Passat has 256,000 miles on it.
Bear in mind that that VW diesel engine was already advanced, glow plugs were improved, diesel winter additives were available, and in cold weather oil companies changed diesel to a winter blend.
Did you know that glow plugs are no longer needed to start a diesel? The Dodge Ram trucks are available with 6 cylinder Cummins Diesel engines that have no glow plugs. Instead, they use an Intake Manifold Heater. What it does is heat the
incoming air to a temperature to that enables the diesel fuel to combust. I believe I read that that it requires only 60 degrees to do that.
efficient ? ? ?
hybrids around here ( Phila PA ) rarely come close to the mpg I'm getting with my 2001 Jetta tdi - my Prius friend complains he's getting 35-40 city and 30-35 hwy mpg - not nearly what the epa rated. I get 40-45 city and 50-55 mpg hwy. I can cruise at 80 and get 52 mpg. Now that I've found a biodiesel station I'll be cleaner than a hybrid out of the tailpipe - low sulphur/soot and the vw already has egr and a cat. Biodiesel does need a crop - so the hot lick is blue/green algae - yields 3500 gallons per acre as opposed to 100 gallons per acre for soy based biodiesel.
Now those hybrids - fossil fuels - wrong .
Batteries - heck we have to put a worn out flashlight battery in a toxic waste disposal container - now think - millions of hybrids batteries to deal with - why would you even create the problem.
ducking inside for the flames coming now . . .
I have been running straight veg oil from the local Dairy Queen for 18 months with no additives in it. I do not see how you can get any cleaner then this.
Wow. i must say, except for a few people this form is VERY smart.
i am on my 4th diesel vw. ive owned 2 86 jettas 1 turbo one NA, a 98 tdi, and now a 01 gold tdi.
from experiance i can say that for highway driving the diesel is better. the car will be more powerfull and responsive because its not lugging around 2 drivetrains.
i have rarly gotten less then 40 miles to the gallon in the city and hav e gotten more then 55 on the highway doin 75.
i have never fueled with biodiesel as its not available in my area but look forward to it.
Hello, everybody.
Just wanted to weigh in in favor of Biodiesel fuel, if it's available.
You can purchase B20, B50, B99 and B100 fairly easily here in the Pacific Northwest, but you will pay a premium for it over regular diesel.
If you haven't already done so, check into Biodiesel-purchasing cooperatives. While some of these MIGHT BE a scam, from what I've read/seen these are a great way to make a group buy on some clean biodiesel fuel. YMMV.
I believe that the USA needs multiple, competitive fuel sources for domestic transportation and vehicles. The current nigh-monopoly of petro-based fuel is unfortunate, creating economic and political instability.
A big thumbs up to all of us here who are trying to do our little part.
I like my hybrid car.
With last winter's mild Georgia weather I averaged in the upper 50's MPG. Now that Spring is here i'm back to averaging lower 60's.
Last summer averaged 65MPG with one single tank going 941 miles!
Lately I leave for work and drive 45 miles into Atlanta and usually get low 60's MPG almost all freeway.
On the way home (2:00AM) is nearly abandoned freeways/roads and am really able to stretch it to upper 60's to low 70's MPG by exiting the freeway 1/2 way and taking the side roads.
I drive about 600 miles/week and fill up every 8-9 days (13-14 gallons)
This has really taken the sting out of higher fuel prices.
My car has 65,000 miles on it and runs-drives as good as the day I drove it off the lot.
In my area diesel access is almost completely limited to every few freeway exits. For example the side road I'll pass at least 14 fueling stations, zero sell diesel.
I've never seen a biodiesel station.
I would have bought a diesel car instead of my Honda Civic Hybrid back in January 2004 except for:
*VW seems to be the leader in affordable diesel autos but didn't want to take the chance given their terrible breakdown/repair record.
*Didn't want to find myself in the dead of night and out of fuel parked right in a "gas" station.
*Didn't want to take the serious hit in MPG
*Didn't want to take the chance in all of the above and pay more for the car.
Who's cleaner?
It always irks me while we're stopped at a light and the 4-inch exhaust pipe from a F-150 diesel is pumping toxic fumes against my drivers window glass...while my engine isn't even running.
I've heard Honda might sell a diesel, which I'd consider in something like a minivan.
A few more arguments in favor of diesels:
1) They are available with a sunroof! NO hybrid is available with a sunroof.
2) The battery packs cost upwards of $6000 every six years. And how hard will it be to dispose of it?
3) I heard that firefighters actually refuse to rescue people out of hybrids.
4) Of course, you don't get anywhere NEAR the EPA ratings. Diesels come closer.
5) Diesels last FOREVER and have lots of torque
I tend to value saving fuel over less emissions since the latter is more reversible than running out of oil. Also, the battery issue actually makes the case AGAINST hybrids' environmental-friendliness
1)True. NO diesels are available with fuel saving CVT's.
2)Batteries should last the life of the car. 10yr/150K warranty. The 6yr/6000 is made-up.
They are recycled. Nimh is non-toxic.
3)False.
Perhaps you were refering to an article which claimed that high voltage cables ran through the doors and roof?
4)Honda Hybrids come within a few MPG of EPA, but are capable of far exceeding. See my previous post.
Some diesels don't make it either.
5)Wild unsubstantiated claims regarding diesel longevity won't advance your ideas.
The record for highest mileage is something like 2.4 million miles on a diesel mercedes-benz from the 70's (the excellent w123). It is used as a taxi in Greece.
Also, does anybody know if the 79 cutlass supreme diesel was available with t-tops (the gas versions were)?
My mercedes-benz w116 diesel from 1979 has approximately 330,176 miles on it. I bought it last year with about 227,228 miles. I installed a greasecar system at 254,112 miles. It has a sunroof.
I also have a 77 conversion van diesel. It has a TV, DVD player, swiveling captain's chairs better than the furniture I got at home, a fridge, a folding bed, and two fuel tanks (it came with two) plus the one from greasecar. I can't really tell the mileeage of the van since the odometer only has five digits (the mbz has six digits). However, it reads 99176.
I get the used oil from a restaurant I eat at reguarly.
Diesels will be cleaner now that low-sulfur diesel is available. The old stuff was probably what was holding diesles back the most from meeting emissions standards.
Also, only the two-seat Insight is available with a manual transmission, which saves even MORE fuel (the previous civic hybrid had one, too but they stopped offering it).
I don't understand why Hybrids would be more poluting that biodiesel. Wouldn't biodiesel result in the same emissions that regular diesel has?
-htor
www.jjroth.com
no, actually biodiesel's major advantage over petro diesel (aside form being renewable), is that it reduces emissons (particularly carcinogens) 60-90%.
theres a lot of info on our website, simplefuels.com, about bd.
in my mind, theres no contest, both BD and hybrids get 45-50 mpg, but biodiesel is renewable fuel, and hybrids are just a way of keeping people hooked on the petro junk.jami
Jami,
Unfortunately, it isn't clear that there is enough biomass on the planet to fuel the US, Europe, China, and India's future demands for vehicular transportation. We'll need to improve efficiency as well and the only clear way to do that is with hybrids. The diesel (preferrably bio-diesel) plug-in (to allow use of other alternative energy sources) hybrid seems like the best solution to the world's needs that we presently know.
Lets please not fight among the alternatives when in reality, all are needed.
Hey, the world is overpopulated and getting worse by the day, so I can assure you there will be PLENTY of biomass to go around, AND regular diesel can still be used, or any combo of the two. And regular diesel is now low-sulfur.
As far as hybrids go, I don't think a diesel-hybrid would be feasible because diesel engines shouldn't be stopped and started repeatedly. As far as regular hybrids go, they should be E85 flex-fuel capable, and I heard they are trying to do so with the Ford Escape hybrid.
Diesels win all the way around, EXCEPT in short-trip city driving. There a hybrid wins on emissions.
Both fueled with petroleum.
If you fuel the diesel with BIODiesel (100%) then the diesel wins period, because it has zero Carbon-cycle net emissions, where ALL petro fuels have long-cycle carbon emissions to the tune of about 22lbs/gallon of fuel consumed.
Hybrids lose in highway driving because they suffer a weight penalty and weight = rolling resistance = lower economy. The weight penalty comes from the battery pack and extra drivetrain components and cannot be avoided.
In city driving the hybrid wins because it recaptures some of the energy normally lost to braking and uses it to accelerate back to speed.
THAT IS THE HYBRID'S SOLE ADVANTAGE.
Guys, this is a matter of thermodynamics and no amount of arm-waving changes it. Spark-ignition engines lose to compression-ignition due to throttling losses which cannot be avoided at part-throttle (which is where basically all gas engines spend their life) and no amount of armwaving can fix this. Diesel fuel also has a BTU content advantage over gasoline which, once again, cannot be gotten around.
I own a TDI and have never seen a tank under 40mpg. Ever. My combined cycle driving yields a consistent 43-46mpg (tracked via Excel spreadsheet over the life of the car!) with highway mileage frequently exceeding 50mpg.
All that in a car I LIKE to drive and with real cargo capacity - its a wagon, you see, and has the interior volume of a Volvo XC.
Hybrids lose badly in an honest comparison, especially if you fuel with biodiesel.
In the western NY state...where can I locate a good deisel conversion kit. Are there reliable shops to do the conversion? Is it possible to get biodeisel iol in western NY? Hope this is not too novice for this blog
Robin
Rochester, NY
Toyota in Europe sell a 1.4l turbo diesel(D4D), 60+mpg form experience.
Actually most manufacturers are offering small diesels, but after driving the toyota and experiencing its performance, I would not even consider a hybird.
Replying to Brian's initial question, I noticed you refered to the Jetta TDI.
As you may know, VW of North America does not recommend using a biodiesel blend any higher than 5%.
So really, the basis of your question is faulted, your point moot.
If you're looking to purchase a TDI for whatever reason, go ahead and do that. But don't pretend that you're purchasing a vehicle that can run reliably on a high biodiesel mixture.
Unless you plan on doing lots of fun maintenance on the car yourself.
I'll be honest with you: I' m a TDI driver, having owned and driven the same car since 1998. Overall I'm satisfied with my ownership experience.
But I also am not self-deceived by some false environmental consciousness. Gasoline cars - of which hybrids are - pollute, and diesels also pollute. But differently.
And there are major international disputes as to whose definition of "pollution" really matters: particulates, nitrous oxides or carbon-based CO2 "green-house gasses". And the arguments are all centered around one of two axes: economics (i.e. global capitalism) vs environment.
You can guess which way the U.S. voted, which is what the US EPA bases its pollution standards upon. Which is why less diesel cars will be sold in the US next year.
So you should go ahead and consider a hybrid car, and go to sleep at night knowing that you're being environmentally conscious - to the US EPA's global-capitalist-centric view of what pollution standards are about.
Better yet, we could all do a serious personal inventory of our lifestyles, commuting and work habits, which may have a greater impact upon our environment than diesel vs hybrids.
Diesel is more widely available. We have diesel convertibles, station wagons, vans, and they are available with a sunroof.
You can't get any of that stuff on a hybrid. No hybrid convertibles, no hybrid vans, no hybrid wagons. There are other topics dealing with the lack of such hybrids.
"Diesel is more widely available."
This isn't universally true. There are no diesel cars available in my state. I wish there were in order to have more choices but alas, the pollution reputation of diesels has been the excuse to ban them from the most populous state.
By the way, the 79 Cutlass supreme diesel was available with t-tops. I saw one for sale somewhere, but by the time I inquired about it, it was already sold :(
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