Hybrids = Scam
Created October 23, 2007, at 9:32 pm by chiludo67
Three months as a new Civic hybrid and I am still very dissapointed. I've still only averaged a pitiful 38 to 41 mpg. Thank Goodness for the XM radio and Navi thats included or I'd been really pissed. It just makes think the whole "Hybrid" is a huge scam!
In the old days there was no such thing as a "hybrid" when there was the CRX HF, or the Civic VX, or the VW diesel Rabbit. They all got better gas mileage than my 2007 Civic Hybrid!
CASE IN POINT: My old 1990 CRX HF (averaged 51 mpg!) got better gas mileage than my brand new 07 Civic Hybrid. There is no other reason to believe the car companies are still holding back on MPG technology. "Hybrid" is another way to charge more money for a little badge on the back of the car!
How pathetic you all have been scammed like me!
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Bad "case in point":
a 1990 CRX HF is a two seater vehicle with a poor safety rating. No airbags and no significant side impact protection. Much less equipment, MUCH higher pollution scores (LEV and even lower rating in some cases). These are just some the reasons why this is a senseless comparison.
Like I said in the other post, many of us will definitely disagree with you. I enjoy my hybrids and enjoy teaching new drivers how to appreciate these cars not only for their own personal benefit but also for the benefit of us all.
Take care;
MSantos
The CRX HF is a two-door car that weighs 1,800 lbs. and has 70 hp.
The latest Civic Hybrid is a four-door that weighs 2,900 lbs. and has 110 hp.
The Civic has airbags, impact beams and loads of other safety equipment that the CRX doesn't.
The Civic also has automatic climate control, cruise control, steering wheel mounted radio controls and several other luxury features that the CRX doesn't.
If you think the CRX is better than the Civic, you should buy one. Here are some for sale:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Honda-CRX-88-Honda-CRX-HF-5spd_W0QQitemZ180172866123QQihZ008QQcategoryZ6255QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?car_id=228648723&dealer_id=60915141&car_year=1990&marketZipError=false&awsp=false&search_type=used&num_records=&keywordsfyc=&make=HONDA&model=CRX&transmission=&distance=0&address=76210&make2=&default_sort=priceDESC&advanced=&certified=&max_mileage=&max_price=&sort_type=priceDESC&min_price=&body_code=0&end_year=2002&systime=1193402358687&keywordsrep=&color=&start_year=1986&drive=&search_lang=&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&engine=&fuel=&doors=&style_flag=1&cardist=31
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?car_id=120086745&dealer_id=1364494&car_year=1991&model=CRX&num_records=&systime=1193402358687&make2=&start_year=1986&engine=&keywordsrep=&keywordsfyc=&certified=&fuel=&body_code=0&search_type=used&distance=0&marketZipError=false&search_lang=&first_record=26&make=HONDA&color=&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&min_price=&drive=&default_sort=priceDESC&max_mileage=&style_flag=1&sort_type=priceDESC&address=76210&advanced=&end_year=2002&pager.offset=25&doors=&transmission=&max_price=&cardist=1067
The facts you list show the unfortunate state of progression... why did the civic have to gain all the weight and horsepower?? Yes, I know about safety, but it isn't a result of safety, as one can make a little car safe. The modern civic is a lot bigger, heavier, and faster at the cost of efficiency.
Today's cars are much too heavy. I offered the size and weight comparison for reference to fuel efficiency.
An 1800 lb. car that gets 50 mpg is actually LESS efficient than a 2900 lb. car that gets the same mpg. Factor in comfort and safety, and the choice is obvious.
In the case of the Civic Hybrid, the electric propulsion system weighs an extra 300 lbs. Honda saves a little weight by using some aluminum body components on the Hybrid.
Additionally, the airbags, side impact beams, frame braces and crumple zones all add weight vs. the technology of the late 1980s.
That said, it's clear that today's Civic is the size of the 1980s Accord. Today's Accord is the size of the 1980s Abrams Tank. I don't like it any more than you, but I can't change it.
Before I bought the HCH, I tried the Honda Fit, but I just didn't 'fit' in it. No one over 5' 10" would be comfortable in it. Plus, the interior looked and felt too cheap to justify the price. So I forked over 21 grand for the nicer Civic, and I enjoy superior mileage as a bonus.
I am enjoying my 2007 HCH and it is performing very well. I'd love to ride as a passenger with you sometime and examine your maintenance records.
I'm an 06 HCH owner and I feel totally scammed also. Terrible gas mileage, terrible service. Incompetent technicians, poorly trained. Getting ready to leave Honda altogether and maybe even try something domestic for a change. I feel like I've been screwed... and never got to enjoy it.
What records?????
I'm talking about mpg! Of course the CRX HF didn't have airbags! It's a 20 yr old car, but it got better mph than my today's high tech Civic hybrid. That's not the point.
I have under 3000 miles on my Civic Hydrid and I'm struggling to average above 40 mph despite the price sticker of 50 mph. Unless you drive like a grandma, tailgate 18-wheelers and cruise in neutral you WILL NOT get 50 mph on this car; regardless what paid hyperposters are telling you on this site.
Look, hybrids on the market now are SCAMS. Old non-hybrids got better gas milegae than these scams out today. Newbies ought to wait until the 2009 plug-in hybrids and/or Chevy Volt comes out. Within 8 years hybrids will go the way of the SUV. I can't wait then I'll turn my 07 scam in for one of those 80+ mpg babies.
It is perfectly OK if you feel that way.
By the way, I really think you were scammed !!! A hybrid is not for you. Really!
But, knowing what the "Chevy Volt" is (a paper product of typical GM-ware value), I regret looking forward to seeing you getting scammed once again on that one as well. But then again, you may not even get scammed at all if GM pulls "another GM" on that product... as in: It may never come out, and if it does it is too late.
Anyway, Please sell your HCH. Please.
Passing the car over to someone else and getting your money back (with resale value that no GM car will ever give you), may be best for you now... and it will be good for the car too!!!
It is sad that it did not work for you and for a few other folks we encounter now and then. The positive side to all of this, is that you do not speak for the rest of us and I am certainly happy for that.
Merry Christmas;
MSantos
Nevermind what the true MPG you are getting out of your HCH. All I know is the fact that I now pay less than $30 week on gas on my HCH2, where I used to pay over $50 a week on 2003 Altima that I traded for my current HCH2. And I am completely satisfied with it...
Yah, no complaints there! I'm very happy that I don't have to fill up for 2 weeks and I'll go about 375 to 400 miles on a tank full. Thats not my issue.
My issue is how I was lied to about the stated MPG!!!
This car is not as invincible as other hyperposters would lead you to believe.
Just look at the threads on the HCH
* Dead battery
* Malfunction lights
* Transmission slow to engage
* Power window problems
* Park brake dragging
* Excessive jerking
* Bad MPG (My favorite!)
* Rear tire wear
At least I'll have infinite mpg on the Volt w/all of Chevy's problems. Or better yet the 2009 plug-ins Prius. I can't wait to dump this car on Ebay.
Here's to SCAMS!
Chiludo
You were lied to?
Why don't you go whine to the feds? They R the ones that set the MPG's, not Honda,Toyota or anybody else.
...and if you can't get good mpgs then why can most of us? Stop whinning like a brat, U alone bought the wrong car for your heavy foot. stick to your MDX enjoy paying for gas. No hybrid is good for you !!!!!!
I have a solution for all of these issues...
Go buy yourself a nice mountain bike and get all the MPG you want!
Hybrid Major Scam
I can relate to those who are getting low gas mileage. I have an 06 HCH. The first year... great mileage on both Highway and In-City... 55-65 MPG! Bravo.
Then came my first service. $90.00 later. And wow... severe drop in MPG's... low 30's... start going back to Honda... they start adjusting everything... no change. SEcond service this past December and low and behold... they found the problem, there was a software update that had to be done! Had the car serviced... filled the tank, so excited that I would reclaim my pride in being a GREEN Canadian! Today, I sadly say, I filled up my car... done the calculations... and here's the results:
27.48 MPG (Imperial Gallon)
22.89 MPG (U.S. Gallon)
It's worse than ever before. I'm at a loss here. I've read everything possible, followed every suggestion and advice... and even drive like an 85 year old Nun. What the hell is one to do? I feel scammed... cheated... feel like a guinea pig... and now, so upset that I just want to have a large lemon painted on each side of the car, and let Canada know that Honda just isn't there yet.
And please ... MSantos... you have to begin respecting other's feelings and experiences. We can't all be wrong. This is MY experience!
Scammed in Canada
Gman1964, is there not another tech in your area that can check your auto out. Those figures are away too low!!! Have you talked to anyone at Honda Canada? You have a legitimate bitch and they should be tring to solve your issue. H
mileage listed prior to the new EPA ratings were calculated based on formulas from the 70s. it was not accurate and not realistic for todays driving. it is not the manufacturers fault because they only go by the guidelines setup by the EPA. currently, the new models are more accurate but still those are estimates and will vary according to the way you drive.
still, the hybrids are not for everybody. if you have an aggresive driving technique, you will not get the full benefit of it. you're supposed to adjust you strong driving techniques to the car and ease on/off gas/brake, keep a safe distance from the front car etc.
so, the car itself is not really to blame here. hybrids have the potential to get high milelage.
One thing I'm sure of: any car would benefit from realtime mileage feedback gauges, such currently only installed on hybrids like the Civic. They are very effective at showing you what behaviour improves your mileage.
Gman1964,
Any follow-up to your low mileage problem? Something isn't right there, and it needs to be addressed.
Assuming your numbers are accurate, sounds like maybe an incompetent dealership. I can understand that frustration - my wife once had a Cavalier that had some problem that would sometimes make the engine die when slowing down after long drives. The dealer claimed it was the computer, replaced it once, twice, no change. Third time, claimed it was somehow our fault, and refused to do any more warranty work. Major frustration. We ended up calling GM Canada or some such head office, and they contacted the dealer and worked through the problem with them. Got the car fixed and it ran fine for another 15 years.
The point of my story, is if you have worked with your dealer and hit a dead-end, do phone Honda Canada and see if they can help. Afterall, they don't want bad publicity like they are getting here, so they should be inspired to make you happy again.
-Don
MSantos... I have not logged in for a couple of months... I had my 06 HCH at the Dealership for 3 days in Jan-Feb, and they ran tests on it, and finally found that the problem is that the wheel bearings were shot (15, 000 kms). That was supposed to be the main cause of my low MPG's. The bearings were replaced... and it made absolutely no difference in the car's performance. It took a techn ician from Toronto to come to Niagara Falls to learn that the bearings were shot! I am still averaging 30-32 and less MPG's combo highway and city. City only is 22 mpg's. Over the past several months, I have changed my driving habits immensely, driving only by the guages, staying within speed limits, etc... and nothing has changed for me. I am really at a loss. My Accord could get 45 MPG's Highway and 38-40 combo. No one at Honda Canada returns my calls, or seem to know too much about the Hybrid. Its been a real fiasco.
My dealer, in consultation with the Toronto office, wants to give me $2000.00 toward an '08 Accord, as a compensation for the inconvenience and aggravation the past 2 years! This is after 4 months of waiting to hear from them!!! I have been a Honda driver for over 20 years.... I have visited several other dealerships the past two weeks, and their offers beat out Honda by a long-shot. I can walk away with an '09 Camry for a cheaper price than an '08 Accord!!! Thanks for your patience. I'm really at a loss. I want to stay Hybrid... but what can I do? MSantos.
edit reply
Gman1964:
Go with your instincts. In your case, selling the Civic Hybrid is not a bad option at all. Right now these cars have a good resale value and given the poor dealer support you got, I would suggest you go with the Camry instead.
Cheers;
MSantos
Hi MSantos
Since my last posting I have had my 06 HCH at the dealer 2 times. I have had a loaner car for 6 days. There is still absolutely no one who can pin-point why my gas mileage is 25-32 mpg's. Having had the wheel bearings replaced, and software updates, that was supposed to be the end of the problems. I am still at a loss. The temperature here is 65 so the cold is really not a factor.
Last week was the straw that broke the camel's back. I was merging onto a major highway, when the 06HCH died... all lights on the dash illuminated, the steering stiffened, brakes tightened. Dead Car. I was almost rear-ended by another car. I placed the car in park, and started it again. I made it home safe, and called the dealer, and once again, called Honda Canada! Well they had the car for 5 days. Here's their findings:
1. The ignition KEY is to blame! Apparently the computer chip in the key is not communicating with all the electronic components in the car. That's why the key gets stuck in the ignition occasionally and won't turn. That's why the "auto-off" rarely engages at red lights and stop signs!
2. They also found a series of loose ground wires, which could have caused the problems.
I trust this is going to solve everything. Each time I go to the dealer, there is a new finding. All the findings "may have" caused the problems. There are no clear-cut answers. I'm really at a loss.
I have registered several calls with Customer Relations at Honda Canada, and they have been the most obnoxious, self-righteous and arrogant people I have ever encountered on the telephone. If I were to listen to their "Honda-Perfectionism," I would believe that my HCH is the only HYbrid in North America that is experiencing any problems. Well, I feel so special! A real Honda Canada Martyr!
I really do not know what to expect next... my trust level of this HCH has diminished, and now I feel unsafe, unsure what will happen next! I have locked away the "bad-key" and as of last night, I am using the other key.
Any insights?
Gman
Gman:
I am very saddened by your feedback especially the one concerning Honda Canada Customer Relations folks. This is not acceptable behavior at all. Would you be able to provide me their names? If you are, please let me know and we'll find a way of emailing the names to me. Do not post them online and especially in this forum.
On the issues that they've encountered, namely the bad grounding and the "ignition key" issues: I am a little concerned that many of these issues might have been due to the questionable "work" performed on the vehicle after the sale. Although rare, this is not unheard of... and tying this to what you've been reporting over the last months it just helps reinforce this likelihood your dealer may help explain things a bit?
Gman, there have been in the neighborhood of 150,000 HCH-2's sold since September 2005 and to the best of my knowledge your case is not common at all. The Honda technical channel is usually pretty good at documenting and tracking these issues so if there were many cases like yours the issues would have been escalated accordingly and would be visible when searching.
Cheers;
MSantos
Hello,
I have been reading the issues on this forum and am very perplexed and a little scared. I am hoping you guys can help me. I currently own a 2005 Honda CRV-EX which I like but am ready to move in to a more luxury vehicle. Since I just moved to Colorado and have a longer drive to work I am looking at a hybrid. Granted I have never owned a hybrid before however with gas prices the way they are I was looking at the Lexus hybrid RX or the Toyota Highlander Hybrid (I would like to stick to an SUV). Now here are my questions:
1) Is this really going to save me on gas mileage or is it a SCAM like it says in the posts above?
2) What are the issues with not going over 60mph and not accelerating quickly?
3) If there are issues in cold weather does it make sense to have one in Colorado?
4) The cost increase for a hybrid over other vehicles can be alot, if the gas mileage does not balance out the savings, what are the other benefits of owning a hybrid? Is it better to lease?
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
If you prefer an SUV then the Lexus or Highlander are proven vehicles. Not the most efficient by any margin but still better than their gas-only counterparts.
Now the real question is: Why do you want a hybrid ?
Meanwhile, I'll answer your questions below:
1- A highly fuel efficient hybrid (Prius and Civic Hybrid) has a great fuel savings potential to the majority of owners. Most other hybrids are not as capable. Now for some people, even these fuel efficient hybrids do not work... simply because these folks expect the car to do all the work by just turning the key and driving off. These people will likely call hybrids a scam because they will obviously not get the advertised mileage. There's is learning involved as well as a change in driving attitude. If your goal is not to pollute less and as a result use less fuel and save more money then a hybrid is not the best choice for you... unless of course, you want to be one of those screaming "scam" sometime later.
2- Hybrids reveal the chronic bad habits that afflict our fuel hungry society. Their instrumentation and sensitivity to bad driving habits make them ill suited for aggressive driving especially for drivers who don't see their bad habits as the problem. Speeds over 60 MPH become a challenge for any vehicle because it is matter of simple physics. Fast accelerations are just bad for any vehicle. Hybrids just show you how bad as other cars typically do not.
3- None. I have multiple hybrids in Central Canada where winters last 6+ months and temps dip as far as -40F and even lower.
4- I am personally biased against leasing for private use. Others may see otherwise. An SUV hybrid is likely never to pay-off for any practical lease period. Then, you have to really ponder the question above. If you are not willing to learn and make good use of the instrumentation most hybrids come with then it may just amount to a waste of your money.
Cheers
MSantos
I have been considering a Hybrid Car for about a year. Having read some of the complaints and issues with the Honda Hybrids, I am getting scared away. Maybe the technology is too new, or the technicians are just not trained enough yet. I cannot believe the arrogance of Honda Canada, and their lack of care and concern for the customers.
I feel for those people who have been having legitimate problems with their Hybrids. I have 2 friends in Ontario who have been to Hell and back with Honda Canada over these Hybrids. The dealers are also drove crazy because the training programs are very limited, and they treat the cars like any regular Honda! Not so. I know of one dealer who used the wrong oil in a Hybrid and killed the MPGs very badly, almost damaging the car. Until Honda Canada trains its staff, and educates technicians, I would steer clear of Hybrid Cars altogether. I traded my 06 HCH after 11 months, because it was a disappoinment. I ended up with a Prius Hybrid and have been quite happy since!
I drive a Honda Civic Hybrid, 2006 model and it is a beautiful ride, spacious, very aero-dynamic. I love the car, but the gas mileage has been very bad. During the winter months here in NY it has been 18-23 miles per gallon. Spring and Fall it is about 25-28... and rarely ever reaches 30 MPG's. I have had the car checked out and Honda's technicians did a road test: 60 mile highway distance, at 50 mph, no windows down, nothing turned on... and they informed me that the car was up to standards. I am not convinced. I am seeing another dealer next week, and the owner will drive the car himself, and determine the problem with the gas mileage. Does anyone have any suggestions? I have read everything possible, and I am a very conservative driver. Still not convinced the car is functioning as it should.
Mary
I am also completely satified with my 2007 Honda Civic Hybrid. I get 42 miles per gallon and with the new EPA ratings, that is what this car is suppose to get. All cars MPG were lowered in 2008. EPA was lying to everyone and over estimating ALL MPGS in all cars, not hybrids
goto http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm
Almost four weeks in and I have been very pleased with the overall experience with my HCHII.
The first three tanks of city driving averages were, 42.5, 44.2, 43.9 mpg. One road trip with 70 mile of city at 48 mpg.
We are quite happy with our 2008 Honda Hybrid. We now leave two big V-8's in the garage that would get 120 miles a day just to work. Our total gas bill was fast approaching $1000 a month. Now we commute in our new Honda during the week to the same work location and have the added incentive of getting a HOV plate for our new Honda. The HOV plate was a huge incentive to by the Honda but the gas savings is also huge. When we got 470 miles on our first tank of gas with 2 gallons left we were quite happy. It worked out to be 47 miles per gallon and when we fill up it's just over a 1/3 of what we paid before. The Suburban and my new 2500 3/4 ton Chevy only get work after we get home with the kids and trips. The $600 per month we saved on gas paid for the car.
I agree with the poster on hybrids being bad, maybe the CRX has a worse crash rating but let's say both of the drivers are in an accident, at least in the CRX you won't have battery acid all over your self. And another person talked about the CRX being inefficient. Take a physical chemistry course and learn a bit about friction and all the inefficiencies of engines even though a gas engine is only 19% efficient or so electric motors are worse! So is hybrid our fuel saving answer...NO, Flex fuel...maybe. Better for the environment as alcohol only expells h20 and co2 as it is burned so alcohol gets my vote but tell those guys in detroit this while 99% of the cars they build are not able to internally withstand alcohol, ethanol, etc. in concentrated amounts i.e. 15% or greater concentration. Switching to an alternative fuel, whatever that be, is the way for the future, not an inefficient hybrid. The only people that hybrids appeal to is someone who is uneducated enough to buy into the short term benefits these companies claim before they speak of replacing the batteries, the danger, the inefficiency of it all, or all of the other porblems. So don't flame on the poster because he does have a point!
Electric motors are inefficient? Hmm.... are you sure? Like 5% inefficient?
Gasoline engines only 19% efficient? are you sure?
Burning ethanol a good idea? are you sure? It has half of the energy of petroleum 40mpg car gets 20mpg with ethanol. What about the energy and water needed to grow the crops? What about the "porblem" of burning food when people are going hungry?
Battery acid in NiMH?
Why are you posting on a website called hybridcars.com if you hate hybrids?
uktiger:
There's too much inflammatory nonsense in 'Mike3218478123' post. We've been dealing with posts like his for the better part of the last 7-9 years or so and no amount of data can silence these people. You even managed to pick on the lines they typically use and how wrong and ill informed they are. It is so embarrassing that it is hard to believe these people still exist. :( Oh, well.
The good thing though, is that things have changed a whole lot and there's a lot less trollers like him today than what we had years ago. So all in all, it is a good thing that the few that remain still drop by just to remind us that our work is not done.
Cheers;
MSantos
The Title posting is a great example of both the beauty & the beast of forums...
Please don't read these negative or positve posting for absolute fact. Some opinions are weighted due to allegiances to brands (in this case)other than Honda. They are posting negatives about one brand while driving or even selling another. The Honda Civic Hybrid is not a SCAM. In the sense of technology, it uses both gasoline & electric forms of engery earning the title "Hybrid".
Test drive the car your thinking about purchasing and do your research - people who drive local only might not be a great candidate at this time (wait for the plug-ins) for a Hybrid vehicle. Road warriors can definitely benefit from today's Hybrid technology.
I'm driving and absolutely love my 08 Honda Civic Hybrid (HCH). With my profession, i drive 60,000 miles per year and have noticed a very pleasant increase in gas milage. My previous vehicle got 21 mpg. I'm averaging 44.6 over the life of my HCH.
I agree, the original poster of the thread should run and trade his vehicle.
You are spot on. PEOPLE - DO YOUR RESEARCH - I drive 90 miles a day to commute to work (45 miles each way) and I absolutely love my '08 HCH. I've had it for three weeks now and have filled up only three time. First time, the gas computer said I got 41 mpg but when calculated it was 43mpg. The next fill-up it said 42.5 mpg but calculated came out to 44mpg. Tuesday it said 43.4 mpg but calculated to an even 45 mpg. It's saturday now and when I pulled into my driveway last night the computer was at 46.0 mpg, I had 290 miles on the trip and a half of a tank still left.
People who want to get a Hybrid need to research both the commute they usually make, and the type of hybrid they are going to get. If you are on the highway a lot, I recommend the HCH or the prius (which my wife owns). If you only commute locally and want the best mpg's, go with a Prius. On the highway, my wife and I are getting similar mpgs (she is still better but I don't care because I love the look of my HCH). On normal streets she will blow me away. PEOPLE - DO YOUR RESEARCH and you will be happy with your purchase.
P.S. I live in New York and also have NY CleanPass stickers so I can use the HOV lane on the L.I.E. when I commute. I got the sticker a week and a half after I purchased the car so you can see that traffic is also a huge factor in mpgs.
as much as I know hybrids [and automobiles] will progress with time... i feel sort of scammed by the preferred HYBRID parking. I own two cars, a 1990 crx dx and a 2003 gti. Both get excellent gas mileage [38 avg / 28 avg respectively]. I noticed that there are plenty of hybrid vehicles that get worse mileage. Shouldn't preferred parking go to vehicles that PERFORM well rather than have specified equipment that is supposed to make them superior?
I see the arguments with efficiency and safety equipment, but that is comparing apples to oranges. You can't compare an old car and it's efficiency [weight to power to mpg] and safety as that has progressed over time [try comparing a split system mechanical unit made in 1981 to one made in 2005... no comparison as technology has improved]. One thing you can compare is performance [in MPG terms]. Neither of my cars may perform as well as the honda civic or toyota prius, but my CRX out does every other hybrid and my GTI out does a good portion of them. I keep both of my cars in great working order so they are not "polluting" the environment any more than they should.
just a thought.
I agree that the CRX and the Golf GTI were the best of breed in the early 90's. Back then these two cars were not only the standard bearers for pocket rocket performance but they also had very good fuel efficiency.
However, times have changed. Safety compliance and survivability play an important role no manufacturer car afford to overlook. And one last detail: Emissions !!!
Yes, the new HCH and Prius are rated as AT-PZEV (Tier-2/Bin-2) which is much, much cleaner than many of todays (LEV, ULEV) vehicles, and those newer vehicles in turn are much cleaner than those awesome and well maintained cars of the 90's. Look it up and you'll see what I mean.
I understand your point but the privileges bestowed on cleaner running hybrid vehicles are neither an accident nor a mistake.
Cheers;
MSantos
I agree that my 1990 crx + 2003 gti are not cleaner than new cars, but that's comparing apples to oranges. They didn't have the technology in 1990 or 2003 that they do now.
I did find it interesting though. The CRX has a carbon footprint of 6.3 and the 2008 HCH has a carbon footprint of 4.4 and the 2008 camry H has a carbon footprint of 5.4. That really isn't miles away when you compare to alot of the other cars on the road.
Unfortunately I cannot comment on the air pollution numbers because there are no readily available numbers for the 1990 Honda CRX. The carbon footprint numbers probably indicate the air pollution numbers will be fairly low. I remember the last time I got my emissions inspection, the tailpipe was putting out a ridiculously low number for CO2 [but of course that is limited to vehicles from 1990].
Although the VW is much more fun to drive than any Honda I have ever driven [and that includes my boss's HCH], Honda has it's head on straight when it comes to cleanliness and fuel economy... even back in 1990.
childudo67, if you are not getting over 41mpg on your new Civic Hybrid, something must be wrong. Are you driving like a maniac? Hard accelerating and hard braking will get you significantly worse mileage. But short of this, you may want to get the car looked at. Are your tires properly inflated? Have you been watching the real time mpg gauge? Can you notice when the motor is kicking in and when the battery is recharging? Are you driving to maximize use of the battery and motor? Driving a hybrid is a skill...you can and will get better at getting good mileage if you read the gauges and learn to maximize the recharge/motor cycle as you go up and down hills and start and stop in traffic.
You should be able to get much better mileage than you are getting!
I bought a used 2003 Civic Hybrid. It does not have the original tires, and it has 59K miles on it...and yet I've been averaging 44-45mpg. Some trips on the highway I've even gotten as high as 57. I get the highest mileage on the highway, when it's slightly hilly. I've never gotten below 35, but that was in stop-and-go traffic when my tires were not properly inflated.
What scam!!
I got 52.6 mpg today on my round trip to and from work.
Hi there,
I have had my new 08 civic hybrid for 3 weeks and have 1900 KM on it. The dealership insisted on questioning that the MPG (60 and 66) were very accurate. I expected a little discrepancy but I have been seeing averages closer to 38. Not nearly enough in my opinion. Definitely better than the truck I traded in but not what I was sold. The dealership has told me there is a breaking in period for the engine that can last as long as the first service, 8,000 KM. Has anyone else experienced lower mileage followed by a better showing after the first service?
Kim
I own a 2006 Honda Civiic Hybrid. Before first service MPG average was 47. After service it was 49MPG (+). Lifetime MPG is 49.05. First service is important, BUT driving style techniques are more important.
Hi Kim:
The figure of 60 and 66 MPG is accurate IF you are talking "imperial gallons". What we use around here is "US MPG" not "UK MPG" which sadly, some in the Canadian auto business still insist on using.
When you set the car to display in Miles Per gallon, what you see displayed is US MPG.
38 MPG is not too bad, but there is still MUCH room for improvement. The break-in period is real but it is not that big a factor as many folks claim. By far, the most significant part of the break-in process is the Owner's Break-in. By the way, how's that one going? :)
If you need assistance in learning and making the most out of your car please feel free to ask. In the meantime you may want to read the HCH-II bible:
http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1306
Cheers;
MSantos
" On normal streets she will blow me away. "
Could you define what "she will blow me away" means? Like the 8mpg the epa states is the difference or is it more than that?
I drive mainly city, hilly with a good deal of stopping. Rented the prius for a weekend but found it very uncomfortable (loved everything else about it though)
Looking for a little more comfort and maybe an understated outward appearance. I have been looking around but haven't found enough info on the city difference in real numbers between the two (I'm probably not looking in the right place)
Appreciate your input and experiences.
Deeee;
The Prius was designed with a different architecture that lends itself well to a lot of stop-and-go and mostly urban drving. Let us just say that for small periods of stop-and-go traffic the Prius is the superior vehicle in the hands of most drivers. How much is that superiority worth? well, it depends on the severity and duration of the stop-and-go. After a while even the Prius suffers. 8 MPG is the average difference. Some people will get better than 8 MPG, others a little less.
Cheers;
MSantos
I OWN A 08 HCH AND USE BETWEEN 4.4 - 4.6 LITRES PER 100 KM FOR HIWAY DRIVING AT SPEEDS OF 100 - 110 KMPH IN HILLY COUNTRY. I AM VERY PLEASED WITH THE ECONOMY. I DID NOTICE THE ECONOMY IMPROVED AS THE MOTOR WAS RUN IN AND I GAINED EXPERIENCE WITH THE CAR. SO FAR LOVE IT. ANDEE.
MSantos,
Thank you for your reply.. I appreciate ALL information I can get in helping me truly pick the best vehicle for me. This information source is invaluable because neither car is currently availble "NOW" to drive to see with my own eyes.
When I had the Prius for the weekend I noticed it'd shut down at a light and I could go a decent while on just battery - just like in parking lots, etc.. When people have been talking about the HCH, I see strict wording like "it shuts off at lights" but no mention of milking battery only mode while moving.. does the Honda do the same thing (where you can drive in "stealth" mode for a bit?) or is it truly just shutting down when it is at a dead stop?
Also, my wife and I loved the almost video game screen on the Prius, watching our mpg the whole weekend. (I avereaged 46mpg for the weekend, not bad for a first-timer) but have seen in pictures and read that the '08 Civic Hybrid has a "XX MPG" and little bar in with the tach and that's about it... I was wondering if there is any other source of mpg readout with other packages (navigation, sirius or whatever that uses a screen)?
I'm sorry to be bumping a thread with such a negative title, but when I initially saw the direct comparison in city driving I figured if there was a more perfect time for me to jump in, I haven't seen it. Thank you again, I sincerely appreciate all information - I am so anxiously looking forward to becoming better in my fuel savings and environmental deeds (recovering v8 suv owner) and I do apologize for that. Thank you again!
Deeee:
The Prius architecture is defined as a "full hybrid" while the HCH-II architecture is defined as a "power assist hybrid". (Some folks call the HCH-II a "mild hybrid" but that is totally incorrect, both functionally and architecturally)
To keep it simple:
The main implication of this design is that the Prius was built as an electric car that is assisted by the gas engine. The HCH-II in the other hand is a car that was built as a gas powered car that is assisted by electricity.
This pretty much explains why you can operate the Prius on electric only for short distances and in very mild acceleration. And that is why the Prius is better for heavier city driving.
Under all driving scenarios both cars are pretty much even with a slight edge for the Prius of 1-2 MPG better than the HCH-II in combined driving as seen in many online databases (i.e: GreenHybrid mileage database). On the highway both cars are pretty much even with a slight edge for the HCH-2 when driven at certain highway speeds.
The Prius MFD display is very informative but still lacks a lot of information and that is why many Prius hypermilers end-up getting a Scangauge to get great MPG numbers on the Prius.
Despite looking a little minimalistic, the instrumentation on the HCH is very effective and complete which in the eyes of many is elegant and somewhat "safer" because it is more driver centric? Anyhow, the HCH has a little more instrumentation than just a little bar. ;)
Either way, you cannot go wrong with either car.
Cheers;
MSantos
msantos,
you made my week!
I have been out of town and just reviewed your comments, thank you! When I converted my trip to imperial gallons I averaged 54MPG, much better than I thought. I was switching the display to MPG and getting very frustrated with the results! Curious, I called the dealership twice to inquire about the poor showing and no-one mentioned that the readout was in US gallons! Simple answers are often overlooked.
My re-training is coming along slowly...my husband complains that I am driving too slow because I am always watching those darn bars!
I need lots more practice but I'm staying true!!
Have a great week,
Kim
It is apples and oranges to compare a 20 year old car to a current car. Current vehicles have a boat load of emissions regulations to meet. Plus, that one is a completely different car class as others have noted.
MY_MPG_55:
I've read several of your posts and while I understand why you are dis-enchanted with your vehicle it is still not fair to paint it as if everyone actually shares your experience.
But more importantly, some of your statements are embarrassingly incorrect. Let me point them out in hopes that in the future we can avoid the types of garbage that we often read about out there:
Battery issue.
-The battery packs on the first generation Civics have been known to have a shorter life in some cases but not all. Work with Honda and they'll soften the replacement cost for you. You would not be the first and you'll not be the last.
- The NiMH battery packs used in first generation and second generation hybrids are nowhere as harmful to the environment as the typical lead acid battery in every traditional vehicle on the roads today (there are millions). It is not vollatile, it does not leak, it is not corrosive, and it contains almost no poisonous substances and materials.
- The HiMH batteries will never end up in a landfill because:
- A reward of $200-$250 if offered for the return of the packs after calling a 1-800 number clearly printed on the pack.
- The packs have many highly coveted precious metals which makes them ideal for recovery and re-cycling
- Only dealers can replace the battery packs and the packs are usually returned to the manufacturer for evaluation and possible retrofit.
- The energy used in the production of those batteries accounts for at most 12% of the energy required to produce a normal vehicle. The packs on a civic hybrid are very light and very small which makes any claims of burden and environmental cost unfounded and ill-informed.
- Hybrid vehicles are on average greener because during their operational life cycle they produce less emissions and do not suffer from the same kind of wear and tear associated with the average gas-only car. The production cost is a pathetic claim by folks (CNW marketing) who've been ridiculed by almost every academic institution, manufacturer and government agency. Please do not repeat CNW's garbage.
Now, I sympathize with you and the issues you claim to be having with your car. But it is a 2003 model (first year model and first model in the generation) which also carries a higher risk of all other models that followed. Sadly many will agree that buying it used further compounded that risk since you have no idea if the things that are/were wrong were truly due to manufacturing defects and not previous owner/service abuse.
On the other hand, many of us who bought the rest of the other 160,000+ HCH's (gen 1 and Gen 2) clearly do not share your perspectives and conclusions... so I would kindly and respectfully remind you that even though we sympathize with you, you definitely do not speak for us.
Cheers and good luck;
MSantos
Ever since I purchased my 2003 Civic Hybrid in 2006 I have heard this annoying rattling sound under the dash. It sounds like it's coming from near the passenger air bag. It is usually at speeds between 5 and 35 mph and worse on certain surfaces.
I just got my car (2003 HCH) back from the dealership- for rebuilding my transmission (at only 80k!). When I got it the batter was half charged and I drove it a few days hoping it would charge, having a little faith. I am now convinced that they broke my car somehow. The assist works twice as hard as it used to (almost full bars, instead of just 4 or 5) so it drains the battery every time I accelerate. Then the battery doesn't charge while I'm driving. When the battery gets a little below half drained it realizes that it's low and charges a little bit, but only to half way. I can drive like a SUPER GRANNY and use hills, but I can only get my battery to about 3/4 full, and then if I drive normal at all again it goes back to half. When I brought my car to the dealership the battery was full. Every single time I've ever turned off my car it was full. Every single time I've turned ON my car it's been full too.
These are just a few of my not-favorite things about my vehicle. If I had bought it NEW it would already classify as a LEMON. anyone with a NEW (original owner) HCH should look up the LEMON LAW and try to get help! It only requires 4 attempts at fixing a problem that never gets fixed. Mine's already been in 5 different times for just the transmission alone!
*These are my personal experiences with owning a HCH for 2 years, that's it.
I've deleted any information posted about the battery pack life so that it's not misconstrued as an expert opinion, thank you MSantos. However, I think most people are smart enough to do their own research and take personal experiences they read online as just that.
MSantos-
Thanks for any correction to my misinformation. I only speak as a hybrid owner, not expert- and I've never tried to portray my ideas as anything else.
Like you said, I'm not the first, nor will I be the last, to have problems with my HCH. Forums like this are for people to express their opinions and ideas. You can call my opinions garbage, but I think that anyone who wants to own a hybrid should have access to all the information they want. Even if that information is just an opinion from another owner.
Of course the first generation of anything is the worst, and buying a used car is never as good as a new car. This is not ground-breaking news! But should we not still expect the quality and reliability that Honda has built their reputation on? It would be silly to suggest that I should just accept the problems with my car because it is a 1st gen and I bought it used. You obviously don't sympathize with me, not that I care, but don't pretend to and in the same sentence condescend me.
I'm glad that you have had a good experience. I would wish that for anyone! However, you can't try to make these forums just for your ideas. Please remember that the internet is for sharing ideas... even ones you don't like.
Out of curiosity... do you work for Honda?
hello,must b a scam am getting over 600 miles on 10.2 gallons,for 3 weeks now.
I own an 08 civic hybrid. I'm getting 52mpg, I bet you're just driving it incorrectly. I bet you rev the engine past 3,000 rpms. I bet you buy gas high in ethanol content. I bet you never use the cruise control, and I'm pretty sure that you blast past the speed limits.
Its funny a subject is talk for so long, that post was written in 2007, in anyway the hybrid technology is partially a scam, there is to part to this story, the first true, the energy from braking is partially recycle into the battery for future use, but you have to think that there is energy lost during the process of storing and giving it back to the wheel, so mostly you can think that about 60% efficient, so there its true, but the black sheep of those technology is that it does not create energy, meaning that what mostly recharge the battery is the gas engine, and the conversion of mecanical energy from the gas engine to electrical energy is again about 75%, so to recharge the battery and run on it is lest efficient than just running on the gas engine. So when you take in account the fact that you normaly more roll then brake, the question arrise, where is the better mpg come from? The answer is quite simple, the gas engine as technology not found in compare gas engine that do not use hybrid, meaning they but way better quality engine in hybrid than in conventional engine, why? because they need to repay all the investment done in those technology before offerring a new one. I my opinion, when they will just put direct injection into small gas engine, you see the difference, and by the way that what you in hybrid, but the funny thing is you can not have that nice technology in the gas only model, and you know why diesel are so good on mpg, guest what, they have it to!even in a Jetta TDI(Turbo direct injection), so at the end an hybrid weight 300 pound more(less efficient) for, if motor technology where in both model the same) 5-10% gain in efficacy. So there is a scam, selling high cost technology when they could sell at a lower price gas only model an scraping all of the electrical side of it.
If somebody as an other opinion, that is technicaly train, i am open to listen. Some have tried, but they always end up with phisics law that energy can not be created and the car is never plug into the the wall, so where is the energy coming?? I am sure you the answer!!
Hi motortech:
Diesel is one of the answers for our future... but it too, is not the ONLY answer. Not until they clean it up better. So far, the best clean Diesels (many of them not yet on the market) are rated at no better than Tier 2/Bin 5 and that means that they are no better in smog forming emissions than the average gasoline car on the streets today. That is not good, not now and not for the future.
A Civic Hybrid II is rated as a Tier 2/Bin 2 vehicle which is one single step shy of being as clean as a zero emissions vehicle (like an electric car). In terms of CO2 emissions it is also rated as an AT-PZEV (partial zero emissions vehicle). Frankly, the future diesels need to have even better technology (also expensive) to even have a chance of being responsibly correct if not sustainable.
So comparing a current issue Jetta TDI to a Civic Hybrid or Prius is a disservice to the greatness of Diesel which still needs a lot of R&D to be a viable technology with a future.
The gas engine in the Civic Hybrid has been specifically engineered to leverage the high torque characteristics of a 15KW electric motor to complement the lack of torque typical of a small gas engine (1.3L) at lower RPMs. The IMA GEN 4 gas engine implements technologies which are unique to the requirements of a hybrid power train. As it is, the 1.3L gas engine is useless on its own and devoid of practical benefit. Just ask any hybrid owner whenever the hybrid power train enters managed mode and there's no battery power available. On its own and without electric assist, the gas engine has almost no power and makes the car almost dangerous to drive for some folks.
More so than the current crop of dirtier Diesels (many - if not all - of which cannot even be sold in many states in the US), the Civic hybrid power train is accompanied by display instrumentation that exposes the platform requirements for achieving optimal fuel economy. If a driver disregards the information that the gauges provide then the performance will not be optimal - these types of drivers are often called "Just-drive-it Flintstones".
This is a fact of life and one that can only be resolved with education and rational thinking.
On the other hand a hybrid owner that understands the technology and interprets the information provided by the instruments correctly will not only meet the EPA ratings for the vehicle (which is higher than that of any Diesel on the City or Highway duties) but also exceed it by a large percentage above that.
By the way:
The difference between the Hybrid Civic and its similarly equipped Civic EX is not 300 pounds as you said. That is totally incorrect as is much of the other stuff you indicated.
The difference between the hybrid and the comparatively equipped gas-only Civic (non hybrid) version is more like 71 pounds !!!
Cheers;
MSantos
Hi Msantos,
As per the weight, you are reading the weight manufacturer give on spec sheet, and you right about the difference, but again did you ever check how much an 10hp electric motor weight, and not talking about battery pack and drive and wiring, as you are pointing out why is the difference so little? yes again they(car manufacturer) did use more aluminium part in the car to compensate for the added weight of hybrid technology, but i agree that honda technology is little different than toyota, and yes due to lower electric hp everything is lighter than toyota hybrid technology. But my point was not about a specific type of hybrid, it about the fact that car manufacturer can offer almost the mpg with gas only technology compare to hybrid without the added cost.
Now your text is really nice about pollution and diesel, but i was only talking about engine technology and not the fact that we should replace gas engine by diesel engine, and i understand you must own an hybrid and that you have pay a premium for that technology, but the fact is the car manufacturer did not offer you the choice of paying less with the same mpg, there my point!! they could sell you better car without the big "holala, we just found a miracle", there's my point on the fact that car manufacturer are scaming people.
Even in your text you never answer my question, how can you create energy? Your gas engine is the only thing charging your battery minus the regenerative braking that is way smaller that 30 % better fuel efficiency they claim, and i am talking about toyota and other manufacturer.
The fact that you want better mpg and cleaner emission and that you buy the best product available on the market is on thing, but are the car manufacturer playing with technology and offering the best one they have to make more money is an other thing, that my point!
Hi Motortech:
Over the years, I've had the opportunity to discuss these things hundreds of times and each time it amounted to dealing with dis-information and bias. So please excuse me if I do not reply in the fullest- it simply gets tiresome covering the basics over and over again.
Yes, I know exactly how much the stator motor on the Civic Hybrid II weighs and as many here already know I can discuss almost any element of the technology confidently and accurately with the implied and binding limitations I am afforded at a professional level.
Also I own two HCH (2006 & 2007) and three Prius (all 2007 models).
Anyhow. The point of hybrid technology is not to create energy but rather minimize the energy losses contained in the fossil fuel when consuming it. That is all in a simple nutshell nothing more, nothing less.
Regenerative braking is not the only means of capturing energy. Excess engine load is the other. As a matter of fact, a hybrid provides better fuel economy if you brake less and regenerate less. The same applies to eletric assist, the less you use the higher your fuel economy. For people who neither own a hybrid nor understand enough about hybrids this can be a very puzzling thing but it is the simple and unvarnished truth that can only accepted when the basic knowledge of this technology is known.
However, compared to most non-hybrids the regenerative braking is still a positive asset especially when you really need to come to a stop. This allows them to recover the energy that other cars would normally waste in the form of heat.
Yes, the electric part of the power plant weighs a fair amount but that weight is offset by the use of smaller and a lighter gas engine. A gas engine that simply CANNOT be used in any other Civic because it is too small and underpoweredl. I hope you understand what this means?
Also for your information, the Civic hybrid does NOT use more aluminum than the regular Civic at all and... the electric motor is not rated at 10 HP but 20 HP (15 KWH).
This 1.3 Liter gas engine also uses technologies and manufacturing techniques and materials that another non-hybrid car would not be able to justify. This is because the gas engine was designed to accommodate the presence and help of an electric motor which is beneficial to not only help power the wheels but also to smoothen and cancel the vibrations produced by the gas engine when it switches ignition, cam modes and cylinder de-activation modes.
Lastly, I paid a small (if any) premium for the hybrid technology mostly because I not only got the government tax rebates which placed the hybrid at the same cost level as that of a similarly equipped Civic but also because I can no longer justify the purchase of car technology that is inferior in fuel consumption potential and also with poor environmental performance for myself, my kids and the society I live in.
We all have a moral responsibility to consume less fuel and pollute less... and doing the best each of us can is no longer an optional choice left anyone who chooses to purchase a new vehicle.
It is a duty for the environment and our future generations to do the right thing and while hybrid cars are just an intermediate solution (as are the upcoming clean diesels) it is up to us to make a difference.
That is why, there will never be another gas-only car on my driveway. My conscience will not allow it, and I support anyone who does the right thing whether they understand the personal and social benefits of hybrid technology or simply because they want to save on fuel as their financial bottom line.
Hybrid cars are not a scam... and whether the statements of mediocrity and ignorance agree with it or not, almost every car manufacturer will begin producing hybrids because Toyota and Honda hybrids work... and there are over 1.4 million of us (and growing) on the roads to prove it.
You are free to believe whatever you want. But if you truly want to make a difference I suggest you don't just "talk the talk" but also try to "walk the walk". Once you learn a bit more about these hybrid matters you'll understand that there is more science and engineering behind these Honda and Toyota hybrids than what most old time gear heads can even dream of. ;)
Cheers;
MSantos
Kudos to MSantos for replying with balanced and informed posts.
I don't doubt that an occasional hybrid will have drivetrain or mechanical problems that show up as poor MPG -- just like a non-hybrid. Ranting that one car's problems says something about the total fleet is unreasonable, and certainly does not fix the car in question. First things first though, the driver has to be taken out of the equation. A total 30 mile easy jaunt back and forth on the highway without braking at 60 mpg should do the trick. Results less than 50 mpg (US) should be investigated further unless a windy day explains the results. Start with tyre pressures and the emergency hand brake.
My family owns a Prius since 2004, and I am very satisfied. It fits our mostly (sub)urban use to a tee. Wondering about MPG ? My wife and I are both non-aggresive drivers, but she has more short trips, does not take advantage of 'gliding' (coasting below 41 mph), and anticipates less well than I do. Her MPG is low 40's in the cold of winter, low 50's in temperate weather. My MPG is low 50's in the winter, and high 60's in warmer weather. All in all mid 50's MPG. I use the car these days for one 200 mile round-trip three times a month, and average 59 mpg averaging about 63 mph. It will certainly drop in the winter. The highway numbers are bumped by about 6 mpg by living at high altitude.
For comparison, my lifetime MPG in a '94 manual Honda Civic was 38 mpg in the same locale, but with more highway driving.
I think the auto stop feature is something all cars should have as well as be lighter with a smaller engine.
The hybrids technology has some good spin offs that could make all cars fuel efficient.
"I think the auto stop feature is something all cars should have"
It would be good, except the repeated restarts require the beefier starting mechanism of the electric motor. Today's starters on conventional engines would be overtaxed.
One thing that *is* migrating into conventional cars is the mileage monitoring devices.
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