Hybrid vs. Diesel Debate
Created January 17, 2005, at 11:40 am by Anonymous
This discussion thread started in another topic. I copied it under this topic, so visitors could find and join the debate.
Brad Berman, Editor
Hybridcars.com
You know people need to forget about HYBRIDS CARS and THINK DIESEL!!!!You can get the passat TDI 2.0 More Power Cost A HELL less the the Honda,Last longer,Get WAY BETTER MPG and it take 60,000 for the car to break in..But People are soo backward because thay think DIESEL are slow,stink and not at all powerfull.Well if that was the case why is soo hard to find a TDI VW DIESEl ..Because thay work and get the MPG if not better!.I live In Cary NC and I had a few TDI Diesel and I run Biodiesel Diesel in them.I ca drive the car @ 100 miles per hr. and still get 40 mpg..show me a car that can do that and not a 2 seater like the insite..and I drive a 03 Bug and I am 6'2 fit in it just fine make a great car to travel in...People Think Diesel for get the HYBRID CRAP Does not work in the long run.!!!Wake Up and Burn the BEAN!!BIODIESEL I can get 740 mls per tank wost was 715 on a 15gal tank! I get 45 to 48 city .50 + on the high way ....
Got Diesel?
Jan. 09, 2005
Diesel doesn't make sense to everyone, as hybrids do not make sense for everyone either. To act as if either one is the best type of car for each and every person is ignorant. For example, so people don't like spewing out more (possibily carcinogenic) particulate emissions and nitrous oxide (that contributes to smog). Now perhaps biodiesel eliminates this emission issues, I don't know. I do know that biodiesel is not avialable in many areas of the country and that diesel is more expensive in some areas, at least partially eating up possible fuel efficiency benefits?
BTW, perhaps you have some proof that "hybrids don't work in the long run?"
Micheal
Jan. 09, 2005
The choice between diesel and gas-electric hybrid definitely depends on your commute. In city driving, hybrids are great, but OTR, I wouldn't have anything but a diesel. Oddly enough, I have a diesel and my daily commute is about 3.7mi of stop and go. Go figure. ;) I guess I do take my fair share of road trips though.
The question of particulate matter is not always as simple as A emits more than B. It is certainly carcinogenic, but the size of particulate matter is important also. Large particulate matter(diesel) usually falls to the ground quickly, or is caught by you body's natural defenses(mucus, hair, cough, etc). Small particulate matter(gasoline, also carcinogenic) is more likely to find its way into your lungs.
NOx is an issue for smog, but it depends on certain conditions. Some scientists now think they see an effect called "weekend smog." As I understand it, this is where smog is actually more prevalent on the weekends because there is less NOx in the air. More time and research will tell if this is real or not. Hey, you never know... they used to think the world was flat!
By saying "hybrids don't work," I think the earlier poster was looking at longevity(and costs). Right now, the inital cost premium of a hybrid is more than that of a diesel powertrain. Then you have the batteries. Eventually they will need replacement, and at what cost(replacement, disposal, and pollution)? It might be just the same as any other regular maintenance, but what happens if it comes out to be far more than that? You have yourself a throw-away car.
Or maybe he was just saying that for most people, they don't get the highly touted EPA numbers. Diesels on the other hand, are spot on, if not slightly better for most people.
I don't have a problem with hybrids, I'm just skeptical of their ability to live up to the hype(especially after seeing what most people are getting for mileage), and confused at why there is so much emphasis on them when diesels are proven technology and readily available.
I'll delay judgement on the Accord Hybrid until they are present in greater numbers, but there is one question I have for Honda: Why not use some of the technology from the this hybrid on your other cars?
I understand this car has advanced weight-saving techniques used, along with the ability to run on less than 6 cylinders while cruising. Why not do that on the normal V6? Or the 4cyl cars? I think the answer is because that's where a lot of the fuel savings is found, maybe moreso than the hybrid aspect.
Ok, I think that's enough. See ya at the pumps(from the other side ;)!
SnoopisTDI
Jan. 11, 2005
I've had diesels and now have a hybrid. One factor that hasn't been mentioned so far is the repair frequency and long-term reliability of cars made by Honda, VW and Toyota. After looking at Consumer's Reports, a hybrid semed like a better choice for me.
Scott
Jan. 11, 2005
Car and Driver also did a comparo with the following three vehicles a couple months ago:
Toyota Echo
VW Jetta Turbodiesel
Toyota Prius
Honda Civic Hybrid
The Jetta actually got worse gas mileage than both hybrids while being less responsive and less fun to drive than either of them. It was better than the Echo, but the Echo is a POS anyway. The other limitation is that the most powerful turbodiesels only have about 100 horsepower compared to the 255 that the Accord Hybrid has, and the Accord is far cleaner and doesn't smell bad like a diesel. Biodiesel is only available at about 0.03% of fueling stations compared to diesel which is available at around 30%.
Photosmith
Jan. 11, 2005
To compare the hybrid accord with its 255 h.p. with a VW TDI is nonsense. The VW Jetta gets between 44 city and up to 58 highway. The hybrid honda accord doesn't break even 40 mpg ever; 35 mpg highway is all it gets. My old acura legend use to get 32 and it was built in 89. The Honda civic hybrid has only 85 h.p. less than the VW TDI and only gets 46/51 mpg if that, since epa numbers seem to rflect ideal conditions. The civic hybrid is smaller, less powerful, and gets worse mileage overall than a VW TDI Jetta.
As for soot that diesels are known for? My Jetta has a catalytic converter and only smokes when you first start it and very little at that. When you see a diesel blowing alot of smoke on the road, what you are seeing is an engine suffering from low compression in need of a rebuild. Another consideration is that it takes much more energy to crack pertroleum to make gasoline. So if you want to compare gas to diesel you should include the hidden energy consumption that is embedded in the manufacture of the gasoline. Subtract 10% from gasoline mileage numbers to correct for the fact that it consumes so much energy to manufacture gasoline and does not for diesel.
Todays problem was always yesterdays bright idea.
I think a hybrid diesel would be fantastic, as soon as we get cleaner diesel fuel in North America. The high-sulfur stuff we have now is just too dirty.
Would a hybrid-diesel work? I heard that it isn't good to start and stop a diesel engine, and the Auto-stop feature on my honda civic hybrid does that quite a bit.
Since diesels sip fuel at idle it's not as big a deal to leave them idling. But you would save a lot of fuel not running them at full load.
You could still take advantage of "rightsizing" the diesel engine by having electric boost available.
there are some diesel-hybrids out there. I don't know if they are in production.
I think it is great that there is competition. A race to be fuel efficient and clean. In the end it looks like we, the consumers, are going to win out.
I'm not sure if everybody has noticed the redesign of this site, but if you go back to www.hybridcars.com, and look under "New Articles & Features," and go to "Diesel vs. Hybrid Markets," there is a fantastic, balanced, and informative write-up of the topic.
Loaded with good data, presented in a mature and reasonable manner. And happily free from the typical "Jane you ignorant slut" (apologies to SNL) tendencies of other forums.
Pragmatic reality forced my hand. I have cargo needs and was holding out for a Highlander. My in-town driving is better suited, in theory, to a hybrid than a diesel, but vehicular replacement couldn't wait.
I purchased a (bio)diesel Passat Wagon, which can accomodate the 1500 mm cargo that the Escape hybrid cannot.
After living with an older 300td wagon, the Passat is a veritable hot rod.
The Passat is a wonderful road car. Overall, I am getting 32mpg in mixed driving.
For the time being, wvo is plentiful, but I suspect this won't last forever. As far as conversion to biodiesel, it's like Peter Pan says: It's not work unless you'd rather be doing something else.
In them meantime, since the auto manufacurers have such a weak committment to hybrid technology, I think there's a really good niche for commited environmentalists to opt out of consuming fossil fuel for personal transport with bio-diesel.
I agree 100%. Bio-diesels are the most practical fuel efficient cars. Until hybrids get better mpg numbers they don't make sense to me. People who are concerned about particle emmissions should note that in europe (where they have low sulfur diesel) emmisions are greatly reduced.
Furthermore, if you were locked in your garage with a running engine you would survive a lot longer if it was a diesel.
Hello, we are currently working on a prototype hybrid (bio)diesel 2-seat commuter car for Europe.
-the car will give 100 miles per gallon
-it will take you from 0 ot 60mph in under 5 seconds; top speed is 120mph.
-our modified diesel engine can take any kind of diesel: not only any kind of blend (B20, B80, etc...) but also pure biodiesel made from cheaper exotic oils like palm oil and coconut oil (which would normally require pre-heating, since their iodine and cetane numbers are quite high. When the prototype's ready, we will be showing the car in exotic locations, using local biodiesel (jatropha, coco, palm)
-we think there's a market for hybrid (bio)diesel cars in Europe. These cars will be the world's most efficient, cleanest and sexiest.
What do you think?
Oh, thank you "BioHybrid"!. I've been waiting for a bio-deisel electric hybid for what seems like forever! Now, if it can just be built with a secondary tank for recycled deep-fat fryer oil from McDonalds or the local greasy-spoon then maybe we can stop messing with the Earth's carbon cycle and I can stop feeling so guilty.
I would like to learn more about the biodiesel-hybrid two-seater. That sounds like the perfect commuter car.
In the meantime, you might find my driving notes of some interest. I am experimenting with a 2003 Beetle diesel. I have added a drag reducer (wing) to lower aero drag. That improved mileage by 5% at 65 mph. Then, I changed tires-- increased diameter by one inch and moved to Michelin's new tire that's used on the Honda hybrid, the Energy MSV4 S8. That increased mileage another 6%. I am now getting 61 mpg at 65 miles per hour on the highway. (Warning- this is not "average driving," in a test I drive a few hundred miles on cruise control, and calibrate speed and mileage using a stopwatch and highway mile posts. Tank filling must be done very carefully to get reproducible results.)
Many factors affect mileage, including the time of year. Diesel fuel has less energy in winter, so winter mileage is 9% less than summer mileage. There may be a similar effect for gas hybrids.
Next summer, I expect to be getting over 70 mpg at 65 mpg with my diesel Bug. I have heard about one Prius driver that is also getting 70 mpg highway, but I don't know the circumstances.
I think the debate of vs. needs to shift to combinating both technologies as discussed by Rogers. That is what we should be demanding! I am currently looking to buy my first family car (have always had hand me downs) and of course the first car to come to mind was the VW TDI. However, it is not conducive to carrying around a toddler with ease, and biodiesel is not available in my area. I would make it myself (from used oil of course), but I live in a co-op apartment in Brookyln. So the next best is of course the Prius, with a tiny bit more room, but no biodiesel option. If only a 5-7 passenger diesel-hybrid existed and biodiesel was widely available. SOON PEOPLE - SOON!!!! LETS WORK TOGETHER TO MAKE THIS A REALITY!!!
If you are living in NY city, I would get the Prius. Just because a TDI would be harder to get (NY doesn't allow new diesel sales, you would have to go to NJ probably and get a used one... or find the rare used one in NY), and you are probably going to encounter alot of traffic, meaning the MPG will be alot lower with the diesel, at least in nonwinter months (in winter I suspect the diesel and the hybrid would be similar).
Why not combine the technologies?
Biodiesel + Electricity
From a sustainability point of view, I must go with bio-diesel. Today's hybrid's have two major environmental drawbacks: 1. the run on petroleum drawn from below the earth's crust and 2. they contain toxic battery cores that must be disposed of at the end of their life cycle. Bio-diesel is carbon-neutral, non-toxic, mostly emission friendly, and sustainable. The big problem for bio-diesel is availablity. But if you can get it (or brew it yourself) it's the way to go.
Why not godiesel hybrid getting 80 miles to the gallon most states havent allowed int cause there strict state laws on diesels
Number 1, hybrids are transitional vehicles. Right now the infrastructure of the United States as well as most all of the rest of the world is to provide petroleum based gasoline and diesel. Right now in the US, gasoline is far cleaner that diesel fuel since we only have very high sulpher diesel available.
Hence, for what is available now, hybrid cars are the cleanest cars you can use with existing infrastructure. There are TWO biodiesel fueling stations in the entire state of Arizona. One in Phoenix, one in Tucson. For the other 19 million square miles of land, there's mainly just gasoline plus some diesel pumps.
Number two, your claim of NIMH battery packs containing toxic cores is AN OUTRIGHT LIE!!!!! I get very tired of lying scumbags like you making [&#@%!] up like that only because you're just too stupid to find the facts. NIMH is 100% non-toxic. I'm going to repeat this 100 times to try to help you out.
NIMH is 100% non-toxic.
NIMH is 100% non-toxic.
NIMH is 100% non-toxic.
Next up, let's talk about biodiesel, which like I said, is not widely available. Today, biodiesel comes mainly from soy, and to a small degree from corn. I know of no plant creating biodiesel from algae, although that is believed to be the next step in biodiesel production since it's the least land intensive and is expected to have the lowest total cost and environmental impact once we've used all our excess capacity for soy and corn.
Turning soy into biodiesel is not a free process. You actually have to use a pretty substantial amount of PETROLEUM BASED FERTILIZER in order to prep the land not to mention tons of fresh water, which is a resource not in overly abundant supply in the United States. Then there is the cost of harvesting, as well as cost and energy expended to process and refine soy into biodiesel.
It's actually pretty expensive and doesn't scale very well, but since the federal government has huge farming subsidies and gasoline prices have gone up so much recently it's becoming a little more cost effective. From the studies I've read, the most sustainable biodiesel production is algae based. This would still require several hundred billion dollars to help start up the R&D needed to determine how to do it and a few hundred billion to build some refineries to start offering it at stations that currently have diesel.
As for brewing it yourself, I know a guy doing that. Right now he's mentioned 2 or 3 toxic byproducts of biodiesel production that he's trying to figure out what to do with. I don't recall the details but even though biodiesel itself is pretty clean, the chemicals he used to refine it and produced as byproducts were pretty nasty stuff you wouldn't want to go and dump in your back yard.
I run 1/3 biodiesel in my fuel tank. Running biodiesel is like being a pioneer and showing it is do-able, not unlike owning a hybrid car. For most people buying a Toyota Prius at 28,000 dollars isn't exactly good economic sense, either- so that puts biodiesel in perspective. Nobody here has to be told how difficult it can be to actually buy a Prius and put up with the waiting lists and dealer gouging (which is pretty much ubiquitous- I would have had to pay 28,000 dollars for a new Prius).
Depending on where one lives, finding biodiesel can be easy or challenging- the Midwest is loaded with biodiesel, California has several biodiesel pumps, as does the Washington-Philadelphia area and some areas in the South (but not as many). Overall biodiesel is easier to find than ethanol. And if you have a little knowledge of chemistry and a few extra hundred dollars for equipment (methanol storage, methoxide reactor, ester reactor/washing tanks, pumping equipment), you can make it yourself for around 3-4 dollars per gallon.
Biodiesel gives you an energy efficiency approaching almost 300 percent (for every 1 KW of energy inputted into production, it produces 3 KW of biodiesel energy). Most of the energy inputted is from the sun. Petroleum refining has an efficiency of less than 90 percent- it actually loses energy to make gasoline. A gallon of biodiesel when burned typically contain 75 percent of the carbon from non-petroleum sources. So most of the carbon comes from the atmosphere. Some biodiesel can also be made from wastes- such as used cooking oil, animal fat drippings, animal renderings, etc. The fuel I buy is made from a guy that gets his oil from a plant that it turn gets used cooking oil and animal renderings and recycles them.
So my car burning 1/3 biodiesel is making about the same overall carbon emissions as a Toyota Prius. I can pocket that eight thousand dollars I saved and spend as much money as I want on biodiesel and my car will be producing less CO2, and ultimately be more efficient in terms of the overall energy to power the car.
With improvements in engine efficiency and car design, a US fleet powered substantially on biofuels is definitely do-able in the future just using existing crops. If algae can become a reliable source of biodiesel, it will be possible to meet those goals in the nearer future, powered entirely from biodiesel, and without having to alter the fuel efficiency of the vehicle fleet (other than converting most of them to diesel engines).
Now, in certain parts of the country, finding a new diesel car can be a challenge because your government, in their wisdom, has decided that they are too "polluting", even if they can run alternative fuels such as syngas diesel, FT coal diesel, or biodiesel (or even, in some engines, creosote- so far the only alternative fuel gas engines can run is ethanol, and that requires modifications to the engine injectors and timing). But there are ways around that, even in California (go to Arizona and buy a "used" diesel car with only a few thousand miles, old VW Rabbits and TDI's can also be sold in California, NY, Vermont, and all the other CARB states).
hi there I am wondering if any one out there knows if there is a 1-cyclinder .1 or .2 liter desiel motors out there for sale to the public???? please reply to or post your comments and i will see them thanx
I think there were some asian motorcycles using small diesels (Royal Enfield ?) a while back.
Diesel hybrids are really only practical in non-passenger huge highway trucks, not cars. Isn't it short-sighted to think in the short run & only about oneself when have a desire for a fun, fast exciting car? Thinking like that will kill you. I know it came close to me like that several times! I'd say learn to like yourself without the external thrills & you'll look for something more sustainable, & find pleasure in that. Isn't it time to grow up as individuals & as a nation, or are we all just going to die as a nation. You might say, "Well the end of the world is here, what with the depleted resources & the so called bibical signs"? What resource of nature or people would "the savior" abuse/rape. I don't think happy mindless driving is so fun when one wakes up to what's going on & one's ignorant part in it. How much fun is being part of the problem, knowing it & to continue anyway? Is that Pompei over your shoulder as your playing your "flute"? What music is that? For whom does the bell toll? The people of the lie?
Here is a link to the abbotsford times bashing diesels with the usual stuff.
http://www.abbotsfordtimes.com/issues05/042105/opinion/042105le3.html
And the interesting rebuttal.
http://www.abbotsfordtimes.com/issues05/042205/opinion/042205le2.html
This may seem like a dumb or stupid question, but why hasn't any car company made a hybrid diesel car yet? It would be the best of both worlds.
give it time - i'm sure toyota or honda have something coming soon. don't hold your breath for a usa company. possibly volkswagon has one as well?
see ya
Yeah, I've been reading all those low statistics for American car industries. They need to get with the program and make some hybrids other than the Ford Escape. I have heard that Chevy is making a Silverado hybrid. That's all and well but that just isn't going to cut it. Ford, Chevy and Pontiac need to make some hybrids and/or need to work on the pricing issue. One reason why people go towards foreign cars is how inexpensive they are compared to the americans. I want to support American made cars but it's getting harder and harder to do.
yah its a shame american car companies support petro fuel the way they do. With very little advancements in fuel economy in recent years if ever. Hybrid suvs are a joke. But thats what most americans want. I support bio-diesel tech/hybrid, straight up biodiesel, petro/hybrid just as long as we are dropping our foreign petro demand and cleaning up the air. Petro hybrids are just transitional until we can switch over to a better technology, maybe biodiesel. I think biodiesel has alot to offer. I own a hond civic hybrid averaging 47-57 mpg . Im happy with it but I feel I could be doing better. When I get a house, I plan on getting a used diesel car or new diesel car to make my own biodiesel fuel.I think people on this web page are making sense but we need to come together and stop knocking each other because both sides mean well and thats what really matters.
I don't knock hybrids (in fact, I consider myself very much pro hybrid, even though I don't drive one), but I don't think they are the best choice for everybody, and there are plenty of legitimate reasons why somebody would not want to own one, WITHOUT being some kind of right wing, Limbaugh-listening nutjob.
For myself, nobody made a hybrid that met my needs; a high mpg car with a full host of safety features (such as side curtain airbags), at a price I could afford (less than 22,000 dollars). So I bought a used Jetta turbodiesel wagon. I get about 36-40 miles per gallon driving in traffic on roads, and it's an automatic (the manual gets more MPG, but who wants to drive one of those?) . I've also been interested in biodiesel, so there's some overlap there; a few weeks ago our local biodiesel co-op went into production and I bought about ten gallons of biodiesel.
For some people with limited $$$ that Toyota Corolla or Honda Civic might be their best choice. They'll save alot of money vs. buying a Prius, for instance, and if they don't drive alot, they won't notice the gas prices as much. And they still won't be sucking up as much gas as some moron in their Expedition who thought that cheap oil would last forever with no consequences (I saw one of those today when I was juicing up at the diesel pump, the woman looked angry, she was probably spending 100 dollars on gas, and there I was spending about 8 dollars to top off my tank with a few gallons of fuell.)
And of course, riding a bus is usually more efficient than even a hybrid in terms of passenger miles per gallon. And, if you are really interested in saving the planet, a Japanese motorcycle I believe gets over 70-80 miles per gallon, and of course there are bicycles (personally, I'm not into bikes- too dangerous as far as I'm concerned).
the 1st inroads to hybrid technology is obviously the honda civic & toyota. but these cars really only compete to the already existing small car, econo car market.
the REAL gain with hybrid technology will be the larger car market, family cars, etc.
this will happen. the toyota's & civic are the test market. and they are test prooven very well already.
i bet in 5 years we'll see 50% of the larger cars being offered use some elements of hybrid technology.
see ya
This is what we should be building right now. In my opinion Ford and GM will go bankrupt before they even begin to catch on.
For about the past year I have offered anyone who would listen the following info: None of the American automobile companies have even responded. I have had some positive response from several educational institutions but - as far as I know - none have done any experimental work to verify my claims.
Here is what I have been proposing:
In one scale or another everyone of these systems have been proven.
Like to produce a vehicle that can burn rubber on takeoff on all four wheels and get 90+ mpg?
What I would like to see the automakers working on would have:
A turbocharged, two cylinder opposed, 2-cycle, air-cooled diesel directly
driving a generator. (It would not be running most of the time.) A 111 volt Lithium-Ion Polymer battery pack. Nothing but wires going from the controller to every wheel, except for the necessary additional friction
brakes (of course). An added advantage of this would be the ability to recharge from the electrical grid while at home, saving even more on fuel.
Each wheel, depending on the feedback to the controller from wheel speed sensors would drive with just the right power depending on the accelerator position. You would get recharging from deceleration just as you do in today's hybrids. You would also use this feedback to stop the wheel from skidding.
Each wheel would have a stationary stator and a series of fixed magnets closely adjacent all around the inside of the wheel. In a sense it would operate each wheel in a very similar fashion that the mag-lev trains use,
except the motion would be circular, of course. Something very different about this type of motor is that the stators are fixed to the axles and the magnets are driven around them. This gives a significant increase in
mechanical advantage. That's like turning an ordinary electric motor inside out.
There would be no need for ordinary electric motor brushes. In fact, many electric motors operating today are brushless.
Such motors already exist in the model airplane field and their efficiently
is amazing - approaching 90%. I've got a couple and doubt that I would ever buy any other type.
It's possible to hang the model on the prop right out in front of you and
accelerate straight up, like a rocket, with this type motor
In the vehicle the motor/generator would not turn on to recharge the
batteries until they needed it. There are already experimental Lithium-Ion
driven cars that can get in excess of 200 miles before they have to be
recharged by plugging them in. You would top off your batteries overnight by plugging them in. Some cutting edge research by Toshiba - employing nano-technology - indicates that recharging can be done so fast that you could top off while eating lunch.
Lithium -Ion battery technology is so new that I doubt that very many
automotive engineers have even heard of them, much less thought to use them in this manner. Their energy density exceeds that of any other form of rechargeable energy storage.
The Lithium Ion battery is the most efficient battery available right now. So is the outer rotor electric motor the most efficient motor.
Build an Automobile right and it will weight less and have simpler, easier to repair/replace modules.
Lets see what we can eliminate while improving performance and efficiency.
Transmission - None
Ignition system - None
Liquid cooling - None
Valves and valve train - None
Use bio-oil/fuels for both fuel and lubrication.
Feel free to pass this along to anyone you know in the Transportation business.
I bought a Honda Civic Hybrid last summer. I enjoy it more than any vehicle I've ever owned. I will Never buy another vehicle that isn't a Hybrid and doesn't get at least 50 mpg.
As far as I can tell, Detroit isn't even thinking the same way I and the vast majority of it's potential customers are.
William Lucas Jones
490 Mauldin Rd.
Sautee, GA 30571-3159
(706) 219-3333
"Number two, your claim of NIMH battery packs containing toxic cores is AN OUTRIGHT LIE!!!!! I get very tired of lying scumbags like you making [&#@%!] up like that only because you're just too stupid to find the facts. NIMH is 100% non-toxic. I'm going to repeat this 100 times to try to help you out. "
I'm a certified firefighter with Hybrid vehicle fire and rescue training as well as hazardous material training. I couldn't just let this misinformation stand, because I believe people should be properly informed. Half of the things I see could be avoided if people just took some time to learn a little bit more about what's going on with stuff. NiMH batteries contain KOH as the electrolyte solution. Potassium hydroxide is poisonous, causes burns to skin and eyes, affects soil and groundwater ph and reacts fairly poorly to being involved in a fire. I wouldn't suggest you eat it or handle it and neither does anyone who knows anything about it. It probably wouldn't be good just let it sit around in the environment either. I researched it in 5 minutes and provided sources. Anyone expecting to be taken seriously, with a point to make, needs to do the same.
Check out the basic information:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_hydroxide
Scroll down to Potassium Hydroxide solution and click link:
http://hazmat.dot.gov/pubs/erg/psn_p.htm
(this one is in the standard for responding to Haz-Mat emergencies-- note the word TOXIC right at the top)
And for real information about biodiesel, including EPA stuff, check out:
http://biodiesel.org/resources/fuelfactsheets/
I actually have both Hybrid & Bio-diesel.
I have a Toyota Prius as the main family car doing about 2500km / month. Doing shift work means that some days my wife and I are both driving the same car to work.
Is it a "small car" - no, it's really quite spacious and suits us well for 4-5 people.
We also have a Toyota Coaster as a camper van (it's the 20 seat bus originally). This we run on straight biodiesel whenever we can. We usually take this on long trips - often over 1000km and can not usually find biodiesel away from home and have no trouble swapping around.
Here in Australia biodiesel is most often made from Canola oil (known as rape or rapeseed in USA) and is very clean. It does leave a slight fried food smell!
We also have a car running on LPG - the stuff typically used for a gas barbecue. I understand that while this is common in Australia, it is rare elsewhere. This is also much cleaner than gasoline but requires a cumbersome large pressure tank which limits it's usage to a large sedan as putting the tank into a small hatch wastes most of the cargo space.
We find the biodiesel van great for long cruising and the hybrid Prius great for stop start commuter travel.
Until we have Star Trek technology (or 'Back to the Future') to put a pocket fusion reactor in a car there is likely to be no single solution and we need both hybrid and bio fuels to make the most of what we have.
Go Hybrid!
If Potassium Hydroxide as found in hybrid battery packs is such a grave danger, why then is the recommended course of action in the unlikely event of a spill (remember these are essentially "dry" cells, not wet batteries like lead-acid) simple dilution with liberal amounts of water? That's what both the Ford and Toyota first-responder training manuals say to do...
The facts are... there is a small amount of KOH embedded in the paper dilectric in the NiMH cells. Under rare circumstances some of the KOH might leak out. The course of action recommended for dealing with such a spill is the liberal application of water.
There are several other chemicals present in every automobile, hybrid or not, which pose a much greater risk to driver, first responder, and the environment than do NiMH cells.
The Prius on the hyway with the cruise set at 80 and the AC on gives me 52mpg. Around town and with AC on and the ambient 90 degrees I'm averaging 54mpg. What a pleasure to travel 370 miles on a steamy summer day and fill up with a litttle over 7 gallons.
I am looking for someone who would like to buy used cooking oil for bio-diesel.
What they never tell you is that the reason that the Prius get good mileage is that they have an Atkinson cycle (5 cycle) engine instead of an Otto cycle engine (4 cycle). The Prius info mentions it once with no explanation. In short the Atkinson gets much better gas mileage but has poor low end torque. An electric motor developes maximum torque at zero RPM.
Some physicist at Harvard have been putting larger batteries in the Prius and claiming 100 too 180 MPG. They charge the battery at night at home. This doesnt work with Hondas since they bolt the motor to the flywheel so if the motor runs the engine turns. There are some cities in Europe that forbid gas/diesel engine in the core of the city. European Prius have an extra switch on the dash to force electric only. This is a simple mod that Toyota doesn’t seem to approve in this country. If you Google Atkinson cycle remember it is from the 1880s and what Toyota does is a very different implementation. Mazda sold a non Hybrid Atkinson engine in Australia a few years ago.
The coming thing with diesels in Europe is to cut the engine to 2/3 the displacement (1 liter vs. 1.5 liter) and add an electric motor to a supercharger (not turbo). The supercharger comes up to speed in 300 milliseconds. You can’t run a supercharger more than a few seconds or you are towing a cop. 12 seconds to 60 MPH is nominal today. This is a much simpler mod to a stock car than going electric hybrid.
There are three companies that I know of that make motors for electric cars like Jones described. They run in the neighborhood of 80Kwatts (107 hp) each. They are water cooled. Two of them would be more than enough for a sedan. Four in an SUV would be wild. Last time I called one of them it turned out that they were not in production. One of them is in a group of 4 companies that are going to make an all electric car (plug it in at night).
The latest battery technology on the shelf is Lithium Polymer. There are three companies working on using nanotechnology to make Lithium Metal Polymer (don’t ask, I am an EE not a chemist) that they claim can be charged to 80% in three min. That’s a fast lunch for Jones. The “gold standard” is to get a range of 300 miles between charges/refuel/whatever. If you want to have some fun figure the size cable you need to charge that battery in 10 min. Then figure the size cable going into the filling station. Its going to be some time before they get close to 300 miles for a price that is affordable. A bigger battery in a Prius is here now it just won’t go over 20/30 miles between charges or engine turn on.
The same nanotechnology works for catalyst for fuel cells which are the “final solution”. They need hydrogen. Hydrogen is not a primary fuel the like oil. You don’t mine hydrogen. It is best as way to transfer energy from one place to another. You can reform gasoline to get hydrogen but you only gain a bit of efficiency in that a fuel cells maximum efficiency is over 80% where as the maximum efficiency of a gas engine is about 25%. Minus the reforming loss.
35 years ago I heard that Fairchild was working on a way to put a liquid on silicon in the sunlight and directly disassociate water into hydrogen and oxygen. If you Google “artificial photosynthesis” you will find that there are lots of people (i.e. CSIRO) working on this, both organic and inorganic. This converts sunlight into hydrogen! When you burn it you get water, fuel cell, Otto cycle engine, steam engine or whatever. Now that is going to make a difference to just about every thing in the world. Talk about culture shock. BMW gave a presentation to the local chapter of the Society of Automotive Engineers on the 35 of their finest that they had modified to run on hydrogen. They don’t have to wait on fuel cells. They are ready for production.
Find the April, 2005 issue of Analog Science Fiction and Fact magazine, page 33, Stephen L. Gillett, Ph.D, on “Artificial Photosynthesis”. A section of desert 75 miles by 75 miles will produce all the energy that Saudi Arabia exports daily. It would take less water than a comparable sized agricultural operation. And it could be seawater! Now if you run that directly into your local power plant you have de-salted sea water and generated electricity for those that run all electric! You can store hydrogen for use at night. If you generate your electric try with photovoltaic silicon you have a “night problem”.
Look at all the other programs that CSIRO is working on – if half of them work there will be more change in the next 50 years than in all of history. We can have a renewable world that is cheaper than today. We don’t realize just how much man has messed up the world. At the time of Christ North Africa was the bread basket for Rome. Scotland was forested until the Norwegians cut it all down in the year 800. Now the North of Scotland is a wet desert. This goes on endlessly. There is light at the end of the tunnel, but it is in Silicon Valley, not Iraqi.
Ga Tech
William Jones did you know Dr Walter in Sautee?
I'll try to kill two birds with one stone.....In various places aling this thread there have been discussions of diesel based hybrids. In other parts of this thread opinions were expressed that GM and Ford don't know how to do a hybrid vehicle.
This article from May 2004 addresses both issues....
GM Delivers Nation's Largest Hybrid Bus Fleet to King County
235 hybrid buses to save 750,000 gallons annually
GM Hybrid bus in Seattle.SEATTLE (May 27, 2004) — The largest order of hybrid buses in history will start going into service this week in the Seattle area, thanks to the advanced technology of General Motors and the environmental leadership of King County.
.........
The system that is used in the buses is being scaled down for application in the next generation of GM large SUVs. GM is co-developing the system with DCX who will also use it in some of their SUVs.
GM actually has 3 hybrid systems developed and is working on others. Part of the reason you don't see them on the road yet is that there is so much integration required with other vehicle systems (brakes, electrical, chassis) that it is more prudent to target the development and release of hybrid systems with the launch of new vehicle architectures. Since the Prius is only available in hybrid configuration, Toyota was able to avoid the complication of developing a vehicle flexible enough to support convetional gas ICE, diesel, and hybrid. They've apparently dealt with that issue in the release of the R400h and Toyota Highlander.
GM will be introducing a lower priced hybrid SUV based on the Saturn VUE in the very near future, followed by a couple mid sized sedans, followed by the redesigned large utilities.
In real world testing diesel always beats hybrids. Bio diesel is a nice alternative if it's available. The big argument I think is the environment. To produce the battery packs for hybrid vehicles requires alot of strip mining depleting the earth's natural resources. Once the batteries are depleted disposal of these presents another issue. Hybrid vehicles are apparentley being tested to see if the magnetic fields being created from the large battery pack and electric motor could be hazardous. Magnetic fields of the nature can cause tumors especially with prolonged exposure. I see the diesel route to be alot safer until we embrace the Hydrogen age. Not the hydrogen fuel cells those will be used in vehicles to replace the battery and alternator system. The future very soon will dominated by the internal cumbustion Hydrogen engine. The only pollution free renewable fuel source.
Good grief -- did I just stumble onto the National Enquirer web page by mistake? The "information" in the post above has been debunked so many times, in so many places, even on this very web site, that it's not worth repeating yet again here.
Diesel has advantages and disadvantages. Hybrids have advantages and disadvantages. Let's continue the discussion, rather than subjecting everybody to tabloid-quality misinformation.
I’ve recently found out about biodiesel-sounds interesting.How do engines running on it perform at low temperatures?
Yes Chuck I agree everything in life has advantages and disadvantages but, the disadvantages of hybrids far outweigh the advantages. The exploitation of the Earth's natural resources for the minimal mileage gains of hybrids is what I can't understand. I don't know why you consider this info on electro-magnetic fields to be fictional. The truth will come out. Check with your sources Chuck. The energy problem is we are dealing with a finite fuel source the answer is an infinite one(liquid hydrogen). Hybrids and diesels are just temporary despite what the asian auto manufacturers tell you.
No - I did not know Dr. Walter.
"Hybrids and diesels are just temporary despite what the asian auto manufacturers tell you."
I certainly agree that fossil fuels are temporary. Hybrids and Diesels will tend to stretch it out a bit more. We have to potential to grow all the fuel we will ever need but the USA (and much of the world) suffer from a deadly affliction.
Lack of imagination.
Studies show that we could meet all of our transportation and fuel oil heating needs by constructing Algae growing and processing infrastructure around the Salton Sea. Think our "progressive" government will get the ball rolling?
Please don't hold your breath.
It's incrediability stupid to have more than one form of transportation fuel. We should/could have converted to one years ago.
Hydrogen and/or fuel cells will never become a practical method of transportation power. Those who are wasting time and tax-payers money on this are pissing into the wind.
Here are some genuie facts about the Prius. it uses 50% less fuel than a normal car of its size and it has 90% less pollution and that includes one heck of a sattelite navigation system
Wow, and none of you knew that locomotives are hybrids and that GM has built Diesel-electric trains since the 1940's. I truely think schools these days are not teaching history to well......
Well Bio-Diesels are nice and all but it does take a substantial amount of energy to produce the vegetable oil to make the Bio-Diesel. Sure there is plenty of waste oil for the small amount of consumption currently but growing plants to produce fuel for everyone is quite a task. Remember that all that fertilizer used to grow the corn comes from crude oil. Plus all the harvesting energy, as well as the energy needed to warm the oil in order to make Bio-Diesel.
Hydrogen is the fuel of the future but you also have to MAKE it. Most likely it will be used in fuel cells, due to it being safer than pumping hydrogen into a Diesel engine (which does work with very few alterations). But you need to electrolysize water, or use fossil fuels to produce the hydrogen.
Also plugging in your car does NOT make it more efficient. You are taking that energy from a power plant that probably burns coal or crude oil. That is a lot of emissions that never seem to be accounted for.
Really what needs to be done is converting to Nuclear Power, Super clean, super abundant source of energy. And to embrace as much solar, wind, geothermal, and tidal power sources as much as possible. Then running our cars of energy created by 'clean' means. There are certian pollutions associated with all of these power sources that will not present themselves until they are used on very large scales.
That or ride a bike like I do. 13 mile on way commute, done in 100 and 20 degree weather.
My study of the hybrid vs. diesel question for my own situation keeps leading me to a preference for diesel, until I remember that diesel also means Volkswagen's reliability rating, which is among the worst, and hybrid means Honda and Toyota's reliability ratings, which are the best. It's very frustrating.
Many of VW's worst problems were '99-2002. It seems that from 2003 onwards most of the bugs were worked out.
Both our VWs now have 50,000 km each on them and have been perfectly reliable. Maybe we're the exception. On the other hand we did have a 99 that was considerably more troublesome (though never left me stranded).
That said, I would avoid VWs in the first year or two of a new model. We bought both our current VWs near the end of the product cycle, something I'd recommend with VWs. Right now both the Jetta, and the new 2006 Passat (not available as a TDI though) are early in their product cycle, and have enough new features (like electromechanical steering) to make it wise to hesitate for a year or two.
But don't despair, that leaves the Golf, New Beetle and Jetta Wagons (which carry over into 2006 with the old body style) to chose from. A nice Jetta TDI wagon is about the same price as a Civic hybrid, gets consistently EPA or better mileage (easily 45 mpg highway with a manual transmission), and is much more practical (and very well equipped).
Mike G.
"My study of the hybrid vs. diesel question for my own situation keeps leading me to a preference for diesel, until I remember that diesel also means Volkswagen's reliability rating, which is among the worst, and hybrid means Honda and Toyota's reliability ratings, which are the best. It's very frustrating. "
Short answer: If you like doing your own maintenance and are willing to get involved with your car when necessary, you LOVE owning a VW, especially a DIESEL model because they're eaiser and cost less to maintain than their gasser counterparts. On the other hand, if you rely totally on a dealer for all maintenance and never touch anything on your car to maintain it, DON'T buy a VW, gas or diesel!
Longer answer:
I prefer the DIESEL myself. I have 2 of them: A 2002 VW Golf TDI and a 2005 VW Jetta Wagen TDI. Both give me 42-50 MPG while doing aggressive highway driving and I regularly go 700 miles between fillups of 15 gallons, costing around $38 at the current (Aug '05) prices. Fundamentally there are 3 reasons why I bought a DIESEL car and not a gasser hybrid: Economy, Longevity, and Performance. The car has butt-kicking torque to boot, making it fun to drive while getting great MPGs. I drive a lot, so these things are important to me. My VW DIESELs have worked out so well that I'm not going own a GASOLINE-powered car again if I can help it, including gasser hybrids.
The DIESELs also tend to be spot-on with their MPG numbers, no matter how they are driven. I do everything you're not supposed to do with a gasser hybrid to get great MPGs and my cars STILL get their published EPA numbers. There is currently nothing on the market in the USA that delivers the rich blend of Performance AND Economy plus longevity that the TDIs deliver.
BTW, with the VW TDI models, you don't have to worry about being unable to start it in the dead of winter. The VW TDIs are designed to be able to cold start down to -40F and they actually start better than most gassers do at -20F. You don't have to plug it in either (there's no block heater, not needed). These cars are popular in Canada in places that get a lot colder than in the the USA, so those of us in the "balmy" northeastern USA have nothing to worry about. They're not like Diesel cars of 25 years ago.
I also prefer the DIESELs because I like the experience of driving. One thing not mentioned in the DIESEL vs. Gasser Hybrid debate is the driving experience and fun factor. Overall, I like the DRIVEABILITY of the DIESEL much better because of its torquey response, making it easy to drive. You get the torquey feel and response of V6 or V8 gasser, minus a small gasser's high revs needed to deliver the torque.
I too shied away from VW a few years ago because of their (well-deserved) poor quality reputation. However, the DIESEL models (TDI engine) are statisitically insigificant in the quality surveys. The DIESELs are actually the most reliable VWs. Because it's a DIESEL, there's a lot less to maintain and less to wear out or fail. The most popular VW engine choices in the USA market are the VR6 and 1.8T gassers. Unfortunately, these engines are the most problematic, leading to the poor reliability ratings. The rest of the car is actually no more or less reliable than any other car and actually a decent car. Most of the problems are related to build quality and not due to poor design. Problems generally don't reappear once they've been fixed (properly!). Most people complaining about problems are blissfully unaware that they're actually being screwed by their dealer.
VWs are good cars and fun to drive and last a long time, but they have their quirks, like other European cars. Owning and living with a VW means you need to be aware of these quirks and deal be prepared to deal with them yourself or take it to a VW specialist (not a dealer!). If like doing your own maintenance (easiest on a DIESEL), you'll LOVE owning a VW, especially the DIESEL models. There's less to maintain than on the gassers plus it's easier to do and the intervals are longer as is typical with Diesels.
The number one problem with VWs is mainly due to incompetent dealer service. It's more of a problem with VW as a car company than with the cars themselves. If you have a problem with a VW, you're way better off to fix the problem yourself and avoid VW dealers as much as possible. You'll love owning a VW if you're like getting involved with your car and are willing to maintain it yourself. On the other hand, if you're somebody that relies totally on a dealer or somebody else to do ALL of your maintenance and you don't want to get involved at all, don't by any VW, gas or diesel! You'll be much better off with a Toyota or a Honda. A common complaint among VW owners is they love their cars but absolutely hate going to a dealer for service.
Finally, one important reason why I went the DIESEL route in addition to economy is long term ownership. A VW TDI engine can easily go more than 500k miles with proper maintenance. The car has a 12-year/unlimited mile rust warranty, unmatched by any Japanese car. Judging by the number of older VWs I see on the road an even an occassional VW Diesel Rabbit from the 70's and early 80's, VWs are definitely capable of lasting a LONG time. I drive about 1k miles per week, so longevity is VERY important. After 10 years of ownership, I'll have more than 500k miles on my TDI and it will still be going strong. A well maintained gasser hybrid can also go that long, but will probably be on its third set of batteries and on its second gasser engine by then. Not worth it IMHO compared to any modern DIESEL over the long haul.
VWs are good cars, but they have their quirks, making them not for everybody. Since I much prefer the DIESELs based on my VW TDI experience to date, I wish more car makers sold DIESEL cars in the USA. I wish VW would bring their Lupo model here which gets 81MPG with DIESEL. And too bad we're not getting the 77MPG DIESEL version of Mercedes/Zap SMART car (a micro 2-seater). We'll have to settle for the 37MPG gasser version instead. We also don't get the 35-40 MPG Toyota RAV4 Diesel or the 55MPG Toyota Corolla Diesel. The Ford Focus Diesel gets around 55MPG. The Mini-Cooper Diesel gets around 55MPG while outperforming its gasser counterpart. Many DIESELs available in Europe already outperform their gasser counterparts sold here in the USA while returning nearly twice the MPGs. We'll likely never see these great cars in the USA unless consumers start demanding them here.
DIESELs rule!
It's too bad http://www.dieselcars.com has already been claimed by a cyber-squatter.
in the market for a car, going the veggie diesel way. Having trouble finding a diesel. Automatically think VW, but....... Anyone got experience with a MERCI_BENZ or VOLVO bio-disesel convert. ? Please share.
With piezo fuel injectors and sulphur free diesel
(like the europeans have) coming soon diesels
made by vw, mercedes, bmw will win hands down
over the hybrids. Hybrids are getting an unfair
advantage from tax incentives. Even so they will
turn out to be a failure.
Consider this scenario: You are involved in an
accident. Your car is hit in the rear. Cant get out.
Gasoline is leaking from your crushed tank.
You know any little spark will likely make you
become cremated.
Another scenario. Your wrecked car has diesel in
the tank. If you are a smoker you can even light
a cigarette not worrying about being fried even
if the diesel flow thru your car.
all this sounds like a diesel-hybrid is the best long term design.
the concept of recovery of lost energy - breaking or coasting - should never be left out of car designs. it's just too basic & novel a system to skip.
a plug in veggie diesel hybrid just might be my next car. in what? 8 years? ~ maybe?
see ya
Here's an experiment:
Pour a gallon of DIESEL fuel down on the ground and throw a lighted match on it. The diesel fuel will EXTINGUISH the match!
DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME WITH GASOLINE!
Just something to think about if you're involved in an accident and you're trapped inside with fuel gushing out everywhere from your car's fuel tank.
having a diesel car you can even have home delivery of diesel..275gls x whatever number of
tanks you have. I have two tanks at home. Never
go to a gas station or worry about another oil
crises. My 2002 Jettta is fun to drive..great
passing power. It gets average 44-45 mpg in
mixed use. If I drive it hard and use a/c a lot
then it drops to 40-41mpg. On long trips I get
well over 50. Most reviews in newspapers says
diesels get up to 30% better mileage. Well the
VW TDi get almost 100% so I dont know where
they get this info from. While in Europe last month
I drove a MB CDI for a week and the mpg was over
40. And as new injectors (like ceramic piezo)
get widely used the hybrids might as well be
used as artificial reefs. They are just to complicated
and expensive to build.
y
vw makes the best diesel cars around
to all u battery boys and girls. My tdi has a trailer hitch and tows my 600hp race car to the dragstrip.How much can that 1.5 tow. I'll race u up hill without downshifting. Definition Torque. I see lots of used hybrids for sale, but not many tdi's they are so demanding carmax wants to buy it !
Looks like a consensus. What the world needs is a TDI hybrid. Then we can have great highway and great city MPG. Add a larger battery to the hybrid idea and plop a solar panel on the roof and it looks better still.
I prefer the biodiesel because it would put "our"
farmers back in business.
Does anyone know what the enviromental clean up
of smashed batteries would cost,"if" an accident were to happen to a hybrid car ?
well excuse me for not reading all post before asking such a silly question about enviromental
clean up of smashed batteries. Aparently NIMH
is 100% non toxic.
I just hope that the people with more brains than I
will get this figured out soon,b/c the cost of driving is killing my pay check.
TYVM
How about a 50 MPG diesel hybrid - for $20,000?
http://www.wired.com/news/autotech/0,2554,67271,00.html
Dana, Opel / Vauxhall (General Motors indeed) has developed a concept Astra with the 1.7 CDTI 16v. (TDI) and two electric engines with 125bhp. I think it was presented at the 2005 Detroit Motor Show.
I guess there will be TDI-electric hybrid cars in the future, at least in Europe, where Diesel cars are sold more than Petrol ones (for instance, in Spain 65% of cars sold in 2004 were diesel, and 60% in Italy¡).
i have been driving vw diesel since 1977 of various designs from rabbit to dasher and by the way the dasher wagon in 79- 80 would give you 45-55 mpg if you have low drag high tire pressure set timing higher then you see a large increase mpg up to 65-70 but enough of this have converted vw to ev useing .rabbit and p/u truck 28 hp elect m and 120 volts of 6 vbatt ev 205 from chloride and the best i can get is 76 miles on a charge
but thats ok since i use solar power to charge batt,.
but the way to go is still vw diesel all things equal
didn't get to read every post, but a friend of mine is a sales manager for Mercedes. He recently told me that Merc. is focusing on Diesel and turbo diesel. 38% increase in MPG over gasoline enguines. Also mentioned that there is a new emission controller on there diesel enguines not available in the US that eliminated and emissions totally. But for whatever reason they haven't been able to introduce them to the US market due to regulations. the muffler supposedly has a acid which reacts with the exhaust, inturn eliminating the exhaust. I don't see Hybrids being practical presently. cost is to high to counter your fuel savings. I will probably buy a used TDI for now. and in South Florida diesel gas costs about 7-10 cents more than regular gasoline.
I feel I have to put in my 2 cents in, I have a VW Beetle Diesel, and absolutely LOVE it! It has plenty of power, doesn't polute as much as a gas auto, and gets GREAT milage-40-45 mpg! I will be getting the conversion kit when available to be able to run on the Biodiesel. The diesel engine was originally developed with G. W. Carver's assistance, to run on NON-fossel fuels! Why hasen't it been made available before now??? Oil company greed? I gotta wonder.
Bio-Diesel with UREA Injection - 80% pollution reduction. Honda proto-type engine, cleaner air
out the exhaust compared to the lab air in! Hydrogen vehicles - another government project
to waste money on. Why convert to pressured
tanks and specialized vehicles, when modification
of existing would make more sense. Driving spewing polluting, guzzling gas, insurance risks - is
not our right. We need to wise up to that fact.
Slow down long enough to look at the long term
effects and see what can be done to protect the
only planet option we have and insure our children a decent place to live. My Hybrid and I are done
preaching.
What is the replacement interval for the battery pack (maintenance schedule)?
What is the fee charged for disposal of the spent battery pack?
How many hours labor on the part of the service shop are req'd for the job?
What is the cost for the new battery pack that will replace the spent one?
I've found this site to be very helpful. I'm considering buying my first super high fuel economy vehicle and have been debating the hybris vs diesel options. One thing I haven't yet seen however in this string of information. Can anybody tell me how often the batteries must be replaced in hybrids and the cost of replacement? I've heard stories of thousands of dollars every six years or so. Is that true?
By the way...the holy grail of clean energy for transportation is fuel cells that recieve their hydrogen from NUCLEAR FUSION (not the nasty fission of today). My understanding is that this is still decades away and has been worked on for decades by the U.S., Japan, Europe and the former Soviet Union. It seems to me that if we're going to spend billions of tax payer dollars, this would be a far more noble effort for the masses than spending up to a trillion dollars (a thousand billion) on going to the moon and Mars.
Batteries should last the life of the car.
It depends on the car, too.
Toyota can't be driven with a flat battery and Honda can.
That was a big factor in my HCH purchase as I plan to drive mine well in excess of 300K miles.
You may not know that the battery is warrantied to 10 yr/150K miles.
Some states it is automatic, other states the warranty 7yr/100k miles.
I purchased an extended warranty to 10/150.
The six year life expectancy is a false rumour.
The thing that bothers me most is the complexity of the hybrid. And in theory converting one fuel into another one always results in a loss of efficiency, and with all of that I have not even addressed the issue of weight relaetd to battery packs. What makes the Hybrid tick is the fact that some energy can be recouped from braking. Why could a simple device not be installed on the rear axle of just about every front wheel drive car that would generate power to a significantly larger battery than we have now in most cars and when the car crawls at average speeds of 4 - 5 miles per hour in the city simply reverse the polarity on that generator and run on it. I do not have time, but I think I could design something like that as an after market device to be installed on the rear axle to essentially trudge you along in city traffic. I am sure this could dramatically improve the mileage of my Jetta TDI
I own a '98 Jetta TDI, and have owned a '92 Toyota Corolla and '86 Toyota pickup truck, so I have some experience with the reliability of both brands.
Reliability-wise, my '86 Toyota truck was the worse. The legendary 22R engine developed a head-gasket leak, which was a problem that plagued Toyota for a long time. Its funny, however, that Toyota never issued a formal recall on the problem, and Consumer Reports seemed to have ignored it completely.
My local engine-rebuild shop told me the problem was the quality of head gasket that Toyota uses.
The '92 Toyota Corolla was reliable, but after 5 years sounded like a rattle trap, with squeeks and rattles everywhere. And the rack & pinion steering unit started going out about the time we sold the car. It seems those units are sealed, and can't be repaired. The replacement cost is ~half of the blue book value.
My '98 VW TDI Jetta has been the nicest of the 3 vehicles. Its had a few maintenance issues, most of which were directly related to the factory-original battery, which leaked electrolyte onto the transmission linkage and power steering reservoir. I got an Optimus sealed red-top battery, and no issues since.
I had a check engine light for the glow-plugs. This is a known problem with the connector for the glow-plugs. Reseating the connector and applying contact cleaner seems to have cured the problem. BTW, the glow plug problem never effected the starting ability of the car.
The one chronic problem mosts TDI's have is the intake manifold/EGR system getting clogged. Read the TDI forums to get an update on this. There's whole do-it-yourself guides online to assist people in this. Too bad VW of America isn't interested in helping. This is directly attributable to the US EPA mandating an EGR system. Recirculating exhaust gasses back into the intake is effective for a gasoline engine to reburn unspent fuel vapors; doing so on a high-particulate engine like a diesel is asking for trouble. They don't do this on European-sold TDI's.
The head/intake and EGR exhaust heat exchanger all has to get removed and cleaned, to solve this problem.
Also, the newer ('03 and later) TDI's use a newer "Pumpe Duesse" fuel system, that seems to give less fuel efficiency, but more power. So, I'm glad I have my '98.
The overall build quality of the car is great, better than my previous 2 Toyotas. The car is 7 years old, and not a single rattle or squeek anywhere. And the black paint has held up well to the bright, southwest US sunlight. Better than my two Toyotas.
What would I purchase as my next high-mileage vehicle? The intake/EGR problem would prevent me from buying another TDI. VW needs to redesign this. Dealer service, and VW of America, needs to get a better attitude toward customer service. Although, from what I've read, a lot of Honda owners are having issues with their HCH regarding the software upgrade, so VW isn't the only brand with a customer relations issue.
Luckily, I have a good non-dealer VW repair shop locally to rely on.
But I can drive my TDI very aggressively, and still get low '40s in town, and 50 on the highway. I'm not sure if any hybrid will do that. At high altitudes in the american southwest, in the summer with AC on. On interstates with 85+ mph traffic. That's the real world.
What are the benefits of using biodiesel in engines?
Increased fuel economy and engine life span and a lower fuel consumption rate compared to other fuels. Due to the concentration of oxygen in biodiesel the fuel burns cleaner and more effectively.
I have owned vw and audi diesels in the past, and the best one was one that a former girlfriend had (before I wrecked it). 52 mpg at 80 mph. Went roundtrip from Chicago to Springfield, Il. on 8 gallons of diesel. But truth be told, it needed more guts. As far as the debate is concerned, the bottom line is that as long as greedy, psychopathic capitalists are running things, the best stuff will not be given to the general public. It is all about the economics, not about public welfare or a better environment. Everybody is in on the scam. Oil companies and vehicle manufacturers agree about how efficient things should be and how long they should last. Think about it, if a vehicle got over 150 mpg, how much profit would the energy producers lose? If your car that got 150 mpg lasted 10 times as long ( engines that produce high mpg don't get carboned up as easily and consequently last longer ) would you keep buying one every 2 - 5 years? No you wouldn't. Then the car and truck companies lose. The scammers have had the capabilty to do much better than what they are doing now and have had the technology for over 75 years. All the things that our country has experienced over the last 2-5 years is proof that we need to call these clowns to the deck and get some answers. Many inventors have been bought out or killed as a consequence of coming up with the ideas that can make America and other countries free from non renewable resources for fuel. Too many people have been marginalized because they found ways to get around the system. When billions of dollars are on the line, corporations will slice anyone's throat if it means that they lose out. Consumer says that they need better mpg, oil company raises cost of energy. Remember when gas was .99 to 1.09 a gallon? A person could go and buy that SUV, pay the note and insurance and it didn't hurt too bad gas wise. Then auto makers being automakers start making things better, making improvements, or so it seems, so the consumer can come back for the latest and greatest trick. "Hey, the Prius gets 60 mpg! Wow! Plunk down 28k and have the privilege of being green with style! Leonardo DiCaprio drives one and he's loaded!" Bullmess! That Prius should get over 255 mpg. And the diesel cars and trucks? At least 5 times what they get now. It has already been done. And what about gasoline powered vehicles? One head of GM said in 1929 that by 1959 cars should get over 265 mpg! But the technology has been suppressed for years, because it would mean someone won't get paid. I mean we can make a vehicle run on water if we wanted to, we can make batteries that can get more than 300 miles out of a charge, we can do whatever we want. But the bottom line is unless we confront the real problem, those bastards who make a living lying to the public about what is in the earth, what can be done and not done with technology, how much it costs, etc. we will never be free. Politicians and lawyers are bought and sold by those same people to keep things just as they are and they get paid well to keep the lies going. That's the reality. So in conclusion, I believe the ultimate solution is a multifuel capable, direct injected hybrid as a stop gap until the revolutionary stuff comes.
SteveR,
You have a point....but I think you drank a little too much kool-aid today. Yes, the almighty dollar is undoubtedly responsible for some not-so-environmentally-responsible decisions by the automotive and petrochemical companies in the last 75 years or so. But it is not nearly as easy as you make it sound.
Yes, we undoubtedly could have developed far far more fuel efficient vehicles. But it is not through some magical technology that is being hidden from us. Rather, such improvements could be made through a reordering of priorities when designing new vehicles. For instance:
1. Slower less responsive vehicles
2. Drastically smaller vehicles
3. Fewer creature comforts
4. Far lighter vehicles
5. More jellybean-shaped vehicles
So, did we end up where we are now because of some grand conspiracy? Maybe a little bit, but mainly it is simply a result of responding to the marketplace in a way that values profit over environmental responsibility. Customers haven't wanted tiny jellybean shaped cars that are really slow but get fantastic mpg. Especially not considering that while these vehicles might be perfectly safe when colliding when like-sized cars, they would be annihilated when impacted by the behemoths driving around today.
Don't get me wrong....there is a special place in enviro-h*ll for the big three. But it is not the grand conspiracy that you make it out to be. The American consumer deserves more than his/her fair share of the blame for where we are today.
You can't blame the Big Three for responding to market demand. The real blame lies with us. Recently in Quebec the price of fuel hit $1.47 per liter, or roughly $4.73/US gallon.
Do you think that slowed down the monster SUVs? Not! We drive two TDIs, that already consume 1/3 as much fuel as a V8 SUV, and we slowed down. But the SUVs did not.
I'm afraid the price of fuel will have to increase to the point where it really bites before the market place *forces* the Big Three to respond.
Of course, the Big Three being what they are, the foreigners will respond more quickly with the proper products, and the Big Three will be wailing to the government for another bailout.
Unless they jump quickly and rely on some of their European-market diesel technology to bail them out in a hurry.
Mike G.
Why all the talk about diesels for the sake of diesels in a hybrid discussion group?
I'm not at all opposed to diesels, I used to love driving a '79 diesel Rabbit although it was certainly a wimp compared with what an electric drive can do.
I'd be particularly interested in seeing a diesel strong plug-in hybrid (I define strong hybrid as a hybrid where the electric drive can propel the vehicle through the entire speed range without the ICE) with an electric motor that would allow the diesel to operate in its most efficient and low polluting state while letting the electric take the load during acceration when the diesel takes a lot of its environmental hits and suffers from wear and tear the most.
Right now, I'm driving a rented Renault diesel in Germany and I'll admit that its a lot quieter and smoother than the old Rabbit.
A strong hybrid that could run off of bio-diesel or regular diesel, or electricity (I'd like about 30 miles of electric only range), one would have a lot of options for sustainable fuel sources.
Of course, as we all know, the gas mileage could easily climb into the 3 digits and acceleration (0-60) could drop well into the single digits simulataneously!
I know that I read an article in either Popular Science or Popular Mechanics YEARS ago in which VW was testing a diesel hybrid. This was before the Insight was introduced. I don't know why it was abandoned, but I imagine that it would be an expensive car to produce. The cheapest VW diesel is the Golf at just over 18k. Add some motors and a few huge batteries and that would likely raise the cost to around 25k (just an estimate) or more.
Does anyone else remember that article?
Guess I don't understand why diesel-hybrids have apparently been shelved because they're "too expensive" (approximately $8K more than an equivalent production model), while auto manufacturers are feverishly working on fuel cells that are as much as 40 times as expensive as current ICEs? The GM "Precept" (their full-sized PNGV vehicle - a diesel-hybrid) obtained 80 mpg combined (and that's gasoline equivalent - it actually got > 90 mpg on diesel). Sure, fuel cell costs would probably decrease with mass production, but one would think diesel-hybrids would also.
Many studies have suggested that fuel cells will not be better than diesel-hybrids even with "agressive" R&D. Yet we continue to march down the fuel cell road. Go figure.
Biodiesel-hybrids sound like the best strategy, at least for the foreseeable future.
Let me make this clear to all of you... A DEISEL HYBRID IS NOT A NEW CONCEPT.....PERIOD!!!!!
Now repeat after me:
A locomotive is a Diesel Hyrbrid
A locomotive is a Diesel Hyrbrid
A locomotive is a Diesel Hyrbrid
A locomotive is a Diesel Hyrbrid
Now can we stop talking about the hyrbid diesel "technology" since it is not new technology, but old technology..............