Hybrid or Diesel?

hi there,
im a student from malaysia..

recently,im doing a research about this hybrid car and its technology..so..
can u give some explanation about hybrid technology..

hope 2 hear from u soon..

Hybrid:
1. Better MPG. Better MPG. Better MPG.
2. If they ever develop a plugin for hybrid
even better MPG.
3. Diesel is dirty. Unless you use biodiesel then
you pay 1.00 or so more per gallon? Are you
sure you going to do this?

I guess the prices of Diesel fuel depend on location. However, bio-diesel is an interesting alternative it seems like. Thank you

Hybrid cars are not for everyone. For someone who drives very long highway distances, where regenerative braking is of little use, diesels make more sense.

Also, from an economic standpoint, there can be little justification for spending $7000 or more on, say, a hybrid Civic vs. a non-hybrid. There's no way that a $7000 hit will be recovered within the normal economic service life of the average driver. And a non-hybrid is still emissions friendly, being an ULEV vehicle. Our Passat TDI cost $500 more than the equivalent gas model; our Jetta wagon was approx. $1500 more. Not only is it easy to recoup the premium in fuel savings, but the TDI has outstanding resale value.

As for diesels being "dirty", the misinformation continues unabated. Diesels do very well at reducing greenhouse emissions. Diesel fuel also consumes less energy in the refining process, than gasoline. Where I live, diesel can be 10 cents more expensive in the winter (per liter) but typically is 10 cents less expensive in the summer. I can average 40 mpg in my daily commute with an automatic Passat with a 134 hp engine that puts out a phenomenal 247 lb-ft of torque at 1900 rpm (yes, I know electric motors are good at torque as well).

With our Jetta wagon, we can average 50+ mpg on the highway at *normal* driving speeds, driving in a normal manner.

I was just in "dirty" Europe last week where 50% of new vehicle sales are "dirty" diesels. I guess those "dirty" Europeans don't know squat about cars...

Mike G.

Mike G.,

A couple of points. I think referring to a $7,000 hybrid premium is a bit outlandish. Honda is not adding $7k to the hybrid that I am aware of.

Also, Europe uses a different (cleaner) type of diesel fuel. I think European diesel is around 15ppm sulfur, where it is more like 500ppm in the US....although that is supposed to be changing. So, you could easily argue that at the moment, diesels in the US are quite "dirty".

Overall, I think a combination of hybrid and clean diesel technology is the way to go. I have heard of some European diesel hybrids getting near 100mpg.

I stand by the $7000 premium for a hybrid. That is of course Canadian $. A Civic Si sedan is about $22,000 CDN and the Civic Hybrid is about $29,000 CDN.

Perhaps things are different in the States with tax incentives etc but that's the reality in Canada. You have to drive lots of KM to make up a $7000 difference.

As for resale I'm quoting blackbook values in Canada. Resale value for a 2003 Jetta TDI GLS has a mid-range of $18000 for a car that retailed for approx. $26500; the Civic hybrid, same year same mileage (50,000 km) has a mid-range price of $14500, on a car that cost more to begin with (about $28000). Comparing a 2003 Jetta to a Civic, you'd have paid $1500 more up front, and lose an additional $3500 at trade-in. Is the mileage difference sufficient over 3 years, to justify a $5000 loss?

I doubt it. As for me I have a family to feed and a car has to make economic sense to me. As far as I'm concerned, the diesel option on our Jetta and Passat is a "value-added" option for the purchaser: greater resale value, and greater economy, more than make up for the purchase premium. The hybrid simply seems to me value-destroying. Pay more, get less on trade-in, and never make up the difference at the pump.

As for the pollution "problem" with the diesels, ultra-low-sulfur diesel fuel will greatly improve the situation on vehicles that are already among the best with regards to greenhouse emissions.

Mike G.

Titan, I had a few things to add:

"1. More fun car to own"
This is certainly debatable which is more fun to own. Personally, My HCH is the car I've enjoyed the most in over 17 past autos and 25 years.

"2. battery pack replaced. "
Already covered by others.
I plan to drive my own HCH for over 300K miles.

"3. Very durable engine-- 400,000 mile engine lifetime on avg"

Diesel cars do not last 400K miles on average.
That's just a false myth.
Go to Auto Trader.com and find 1/2 page of VW's over 150K miles, 1 page with 100-150K range.
Sure you might find one with +300m but the average is only around 90-120K miles.

Then go look up Honda or Toyota and see up 7-8 pages of cars 200K-300K miles, 16 pages with 100-200K miles.
***Do the used car research and compare***
Even the Dodge's last longer than VW's on average.

"4. hybrids generally command $4000 to as much as $6000 above the sticker cost of equivalent gasoline model in same brand. "

Already covered by others. I paid $18.5K out the door for a fully loaded hybrid Cvic, while a similarly loaded EX sold for about $17.9K

"5. Lower maintenance costs (see #2) over lifetime of vehicle."

Check VW reliability. (Maintanance costs)
I would have hoped that VW would have solved some of their major safety issues (Fire, crash, etc) by now, not to mention the endless QC problems they've had in the past (Windows falling out etc)

"6. Ability to burn sustainable & renewable alternative fuels (bio-diesel, SVO, and WVO), fuels which further lower the greenhouse gas emissions of a diesel below that of similar size gasoline engine, mile for mile. "

There you got me. I can't burn biodiesel.
But regular diesel is often scarce enough, let alone the biodiesel.
Sure, some people mix lye, sodium hydroxide, potassium hydroxide, methanol and oil on their own property but most I think are not willing to set up a production refinery lab in their shed then deal with the waste glycerin.

Mixing up quantites of automobile fuel in a garage may be leagal in some areas, but not in most cities.
Certainly could be a fire hazard.

Most diesel autos get low 40's, about the same as the HCH. Prius does a little better.
But both HCH and Prius are capable of leaving diesel MPG in the dust.

HCH comes already fully loaded, restyled for 2006 with more power, more economy and costs less than a comparable VW....and burns regular gas.

My vote is for hybrid.

In terms of economics, it may never make 100% economic sense to buy a new hybrid, depending on your situation. Then again, it never really makes economic sense to buy any new car.

Just for the sake of argument though, I did some Kelley BB resale values for a VW 2003 Jetta TDI and a 2003 HCH (both with the standard options and excellent condition) are as follows:
Jetta with 30,000 miles $14,150
HCH with 30,000 miles is $15,450 ($1,300 more)

Jetta with 50,000 miles is $11,950
HCH with 50,000 miles is $13,550 ($1600 more).

So if by your assertion, you spend $1500 less for the Jetta TDI, you will get $1450 less on the resale of it in two years (averaging the 30K and 50K price differences). At least in my area, the initial price difference would wash out at resale. Plus, consider that you may see better mileage in a hybrid than in a diesel if you drive mainly city (Jetta=36 mpg, HCH =47/48 mpg).

So, under these circumstances, you would not spend any extra money for the HCH over the Jetta TDI (and may even save some $$ depending on where you drive). Plus, you don't get a car that has the EPA's worst pollution score of a 1, vs a car with a pollution score of 9. (10 is the best).

I also drive mainly on the highway (85-90%) so fuel economy diesel vs. hybrid is about the same. Right now diesel fuel is anywhere from 4-20 cents per liter cheaper than gas.

Oops, I meant "Check out http://www.kbb.com for yourself before simply calling them wrong."

The Canadian situation for TDIs is no doubt helped by the fact that 50% of VW's Canadian sales are diesels, as opposed to less than 10% for the US.

High demand up here is no doubt keeping used values high.

In 2002 I traded in my '99 TDI on an Accord I leased. I paid $25000 CDN for the TDI, and 3 years and 50,000 miles later, I got $17500 trade-in value. It was the highest resale performance of any car I ever owned and inspired me to get another one when the lease expired on the Accord.

The Accord wasn't a bad car (4-cyl VTEC), but the Jetta burns nearly half as much fuel (5 l/100 km vs 9 l/100 km).

Mike

"Hybrids: The fuel economy car for the college educated."

That may be true in the US especially since you get some nice tax incentives to buy one. Up here in Canada, it's more like "Hybrids, the fuel economy car for those who flunked math".

I drive 60,000 km/year (37,000 miles) of mostly highway, and with the resale value and price differentials, there is NO WAY I will make up the difference in the slight fuel economy difference between diesel and hybrid, particularly since those are 90% highway mileage, for which a diesel is optimal and a hybrid is not. Even for me, probably a Corolla sedan would have made as much economic sense as a TDI but there are other benefits to the TDI, one of which is low-end torque, and the other, the ability to do over 1000 km between fill-ups, consistently. Plus the wagon versions are extremely practical as "SUV-killers". With ESP stabilization, and a wagon that gets me 48 mpg, who needs an SUV?

I'm not against hybrids either, but I believe that to get the masses to jump aboard, especially in a country where the cost of living is higher and incomes generally lower, you need economic incentives. It's great to save gas but if the overall cost of ownership is much lower with a car that's only slightly worse on fuel consumption, where's the consumer benefit? Sounds selfish but basically capitalism works on selfish principles.

With luck, and your tax incentives, hybrids will gain market share which will drive down the price of the technology to where it DOES make economic sense for a Canadian.

Mike,

Yeap, in the US, hybrids are the fuel economy car of the educated. (82% of Prius owners have a college degree: http://www2.ctcentral.com/ctcars/fullstory.asp?ID=11152003NT1810 ). Many other articles mention how hybrid owners are more educated and more affluent than the average car owner.

I have said multiple times that I speak for in the US and don't speak for Canada. IMO, you should qualify your statements that they only apply in Canada. I am glad that you did so for your last post.

If a person wants to be technical, any new car is for those who flunked math. Get a slightly used Corolla or Echo and get good mileage for many miles.

Again I will state that a diesel does no better on the highway than a hybrid (i.e. the Prius still gets 50 mpg on the interstate).

I don't mean to be an elitist, but I am much more concerned about the masses in US than Canada or Europe. I doubt that hybrids will ever catch on in Europe or Canada like they are here since diesels already have such a good market share and the economic incentives aren't there. I think that other countries, like China, will still see hybrids become for the masses.

Economically, it may never make it in Canada, there may always have to be other incentives, like you mentioned there are other reasons why a person gets a certain car. A person could equally want low emissions, like the styling, or want options that are not on a diesel. (Or on a hybrid).

Toyota has pledged to work on reducing the hybrid premium by half in the next few years. I have hope that they will, they have met their goals with hybrids so far.

My wife and I recently purchased a Jeep Liberty Diesel. Reasons:

Ford Escape Hybrid was almost $10K more than the Jeep.

Yes, Diesel is much more expensive, at least here in South Carolina. Diesel is $3.19 to $3.39 a Gallon and Gas is around $2.82 plus or minus a little. However, we can purchase BD20 (20% Bio and 80% diesel) here in SC at about 20 cents a gallon less. The Jeep burns clean with the BD20 fuel and is very strong, much stronger than the Hybrid Ford. It gets about 28mpg in town and about 33 on the highway. Not much less than the Hybrid, but much better than a gasoline version.

I also own a Dodge 2500 with the Cummins Diesel. Same reasons, it gets about 50% better mileage than gasoline trucks, will last forever, and runs Bio.

So, this college educated Engineer weighed all the factors and went with the Diesel.

Lower first time cost
High mileage
Runs clean when on BioDiesel
Lower maintenance cost
Much longer vehicle life (it will still be running strong at 300,000miles)

Don

"Regarding the diesel auto - they have a much shorter life span than regular gas cars and the maintenance is much higher. "

Would you like to qualify this statement with some facts? This is patently false.

There are many VW and Mercedes diesels in Canada with well over 400,000 km (250,000 miles). I've seen them and ridden in one. It was well-worn but still going strong.

The maintenance intervals on our two TDIs include oil/filter changes at 10,000 mile intervals. Timing belts, something many gas cars need as well, are at 100,000 miles now. Other filters are the same as gas cars. There is no ignition system to service.

Short-term the only extra with diesels is draining the water separator. Long-term, injection pumps (except for the PD cars), and glow plugs. Other accessory items on diesel vs. gas (e.g. water pumps, alternators, transmissions, etc) are the same as for gasoline vehicles. Some do require intake manifold cleaning (due to the EGR system) especially if driven a lot at slower speeds or lugged.

So far on our two TDIs the only maintenance we've done include oil and filter changes.

I've done the economic analysis and even with the older TDI engines (up to 2003) that required 55,000 mile timing belt changes, the cost of the belt change was about $0.01 cents per kilometer on a car that was saving about $0.05 cents per kilometer in fuel.

Why don't you ask someone with a VW diesel to show you the manufacturer's recommended maintenance intervals for the diesels compared to the gas versions? You'd actually find that the TDI requires LESS, not more, maintenance than the base Passat engine for instance (the 1.8T), and the same as the V6 and 2.0 4-cyl engines in the Passat and other models

Mike G.

From what I've seen of the Black Book prices for the Civic Hybrid, it could very well be that buying used is much better value than buying new. Last time I checked, for Canadian prices, a Civic hybrid was considerably cheaper than a Jetta TDI of the same year/mileage.

Our driving mix is about the opposite of yours: 1/4 city, 3/4 highway, and our Jetta TDI gets almost exactly the same mileage, 5-5.3 l/100 km. On the highway it can see as high as 4.6 if not driven aggressively.

Tell your daughter to lighten up on the foot. Diesel or hybrid, doesn't matter, a heavy foot costs $.

Steve,

Well, do you think the durability of the vehicles listed has to do with the type of engine they have, or the quality of the car made by the manufacturer? Honda, Toyota, etc are known for making excellent cars....and they do not make diesels (for the most part). VW is the primary diesel manufacturer in the US, and their quality is iffy at best.

So, I think diesels have a promising future with the lower sulfur fuels, higher mpg, etc. But I know that my wife and I never got too serious about a VW b/c of the reliability issue. We love the styling and the ride (and my wife digs the "feel" of owning a VW), but the reliability ratings just stink.

before any of you start looking for something for free...check this out...Remenber if it seems to good to be true,,,,,guess waht - it probably is:

Ad attacks Toyota's record

Environmental group questions efficiency

October 24, 2005

BY SARAH A. WEBSTER
FREE PRESS BUSINESS WRITER

"Is Toyota a wolf in sheep's clothing?"

That's what a stinging national ad campaign against Toyota Motor Corp., launched today by a San
Francisco-based environmental group, suggests. The ad is to run in Mother Jones online today and
be printed soon in full-page ads in the New York Times and other publications.

Created by the Bluewater Network, a nonprofit organization that fights for clean air and water,
the ads against Toyota are thought to be the first ever to attack a Japanese automaker on its
environmental record in the United States.

Bluewater says Toyota's hybrids aren't as efficient as their non-hybrid versions and questions why
the automaker is fighting tougher standards on fuel economy and emissions. They also note that
while Toyota's overall fuel economy is the best in the industry, it is worse than it was 20 years
ago, according to the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency.

Toyota spokeswoman Nancy Hubbell said the automaker is disappointed by the campaign.

"Toyota is definitely the environmental leader, and we're extremely surprised," she said.

Bluewater is the same environmental group that launched a personal ad campaign against Ford Motor
Co. last year, portraying Ford Chairman and Chief Executive Officer Bill Ford as Pinocchio and
challenging the automaker's record on environmental issues.

Those ads, according to Bluewater, were largely a consequence of Ford portraying himself as an
environmentalist, making promises and not keeping them.

Now, Bluewater is taking on Toyota.

"We don't enjoy playing the truth squad," Danielle Fugere, director of climate change at
Bluewater, said. "But when the auto industry misleads the public, whether intentionally or not,
someone's got to set the record straight."

The ads against Toyota are likely to be heralded by Detroit automakers, which have been crying
foul for years now over Toyota's seemingly bulletproof image with consumers as the environmentally
friendly automaker.

Toyota makes one-third of the hybrid gasoline-electric vehicles sold in the United States and has
consequently benefited from Earth-friendly buzz -- even getting A-list celebrities to arrive at
the Academy Awards in hybrid Prius compact cars as an environmentally conscious fashion statement.

But Bluewater's ads, which were obtained by the Free Press last week, show Toyota CEO Katsuaki
Watanabe in the foreground and a man wearing a wolf head in the background. The ads list a series
of concerns about Toyota.

Foremost, the group questions why Toyota's newest hybrids don't get much better fuel economy than
their non-hybrid versions.

The hybrid version of the Highlander got only 20.6 miles per gallon in a week-long test drive this
year on a range of driving conditions by Free Press auto critic Mark Phelan. The EPA rating shows
the vehicle gets 33 m.p.g. city/28 m.p.g. highway in federal tests. The non-hybrid Highlander,
meanwhile, was rated 19 m.p.g. city/25 m.p.g. highway by the EPA -- much closer to the actual
results in the hybrid.

Other journalists have found similar results, Bluewater notes in its ad, calling the Highlander
and Lexus RX 400h "gas guzzlers with no better fuel economy than their non-hybrid versions."

"If this is the precedent for Toyota's future hybrids, that will be bad news for global warming
and our dependence on foreign oil," the ad says.

Hubbell of Toyota defended the company's hybrid vehicles, saying they are more efficient than
their gasoline counterparts. What's more, she said they are 80% cleaner in emissions.

Bluewater also asks why Toyota is working with other automakers to resist federal efforts to raise
national fuel mileage standards and suing to block California's proposed regulations to reduce
smog and greenhouse gas pollution.

Hubbell said Toyota is lobbying for regulations that are "rational and national," to avoid a
patchwork system of standards "that would be a nightmare" to comply with for manufacturers.

The ads also note that the average fuel mileage of Toyota vehicles is worse today than it was 20
years ago, according to the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency's 2005 Fuel Economy Trends
report. In 2005, Toyota's fleet averaged 27.5 miles per gallon, the highest among manufacturers.
But the company performed better in 1985, with its fleet averaging 30.0 miles per gallon, the EPA
report shows.

While Toyota has a stable of fuel-efficient cars, including the hybrid Prius, it also makes the
Land Cruiser SUV (17 m.p.g. on the highway); Sequoia SUV (18 m.p.g.); 4Runner SUV (21 m.p.g.), and
Tundra Double Cab (18 m.p.g.). Those vehicles have helped lower Toyota's overall fuel economy.

"Toyota has a lot of explaining to do," Bluewater's ads say. "We thought Toyota cared about the
environment. ... Is this the same company that brought us the hybrid Prius, claiming to be an
environmental leader?"

The ads provide Toyota's telephone number and encourage consumers to call and ask Toyota to "build
more fuel-efficient cars and end Toyota's opposition to critical U.S. environmental policies."

Contact SARAH A. WEBSTER at 313-222-5394 or .

Dave,

Please don't litter this site with this huge post too many times. Twice on the mini-van thread and once here is way more than that trash deserves. I commented on the mini-van thread in case anyone is interested. Personally, I wouldn't want my friends to see my name associated with supporting that kind of trash and you've done so 3 times (that I've read thus far).

Now, back on the diesel topic:

Clearly a diesel hybrid is a great choice to look at.

- the diesel is at its worst during startup while the electric is at its best during startup.
- the diesel is great a constant RPM, during which time it is quite clean and efficient. Using the electric to handle the surges should enable the diesel to be quite cheap yet retain its efficiency.

This should be a marriage made in heaven. Its too bad there seems to be so many lovers of diesels who seem to feel like they have to hate hybrids. After-all, the grandest of the diesels (diesel locomotives) have been hybrid diesel-electrics for over half a century.

All you diesel afficianados are quite right about your understanding of the diesel. Now, let's work on your understanding of the hybrid and you can see a real winner.

Remember that the torque, power, and efficiency curves for an electric is pretty flat over shaft speed (RPM's) up to an upper RPM limit. An ICE (Internal Combustion Engine) must have the RPM's specified with the power, torque, and efficiency, or it is meaningful. This is because at slow speeds and very high speeds, an ICE works very poorly. The transmission makes up for some of this and clearly technology has come a long way to improve these but we still lose a lot of efficiency just in the transmission as well.

This means that the electric motor works well at all speeds, even at startup, without the need for gears or a transmission but an ICE is running way outside it's 'power band' when starting up.

Another advantage of the electric motor is that it is 80% - 90% efficient at converting stored energy (electricity) into mechanical energy, while even the best ICE are only in the low 20% range.

Now, I'll digress with a harsh reality of the battery electric: Energy storage. A gasoline (diesel too) tank and ICE carry over 10 times as much energy as the same weight (mass) of even the best batteries known today. This is why getting good range from a pure electric vehicle is such a challenge.

This is why, despite the fact that it is over 60% less efficient, a diesel powered vehicle has so much range, compared with a battery powered vehicle.

Now, suppose you could marry these two kinds of propulsion.

- Keep the diesel only running at it's most efficient RPM's so you get the best out of it.
- Use the electric motor to handle the connection with the road, where different speeds and torques are needed depending on the road and traffic condition.
- Your combined electric and ICE power will set your maximum acceleration (note that using the electric for acceleration actually does not hurt your gas mileage as much as pure ICE would, even with fast starts) and hill climbing speed.
- Your combined electric + ICE range will set your total range between fueling.

- Add to this the fact that the hybrid can capture the braking energy through regenerative braking.

. . . and you have a pretty good piece of machinery.

Of course, in reality, modern, efficient batteries can actually provide more than 200 miles of range on a vehicle between charging and fast charging can enable one to charge such a vehicle in 10 - 15 minutes, thus obviating the need for the ICE (gasoline or diesel). But that's more of a step than most people are willing to take so I'm ok with looking at hybrids for now. I just wish someone would make a nice diesel one :-(

I read somewhere that you couldn't use bio in an injected engine. It gummed up the injectors.

True?

The newer (2004 and later) VW TDIs are not common rail, but rather use a unit injector system (called "Pump-Düse" in marketing speak).

The injector is its own high-pressure fuel pump. The injector is pressurized by a special camshaft. Each stroke builds the same pressure but the fuel metering is handled by the electronics, similar to a common-rail system.

I'm not sure how these handle bio. I believe VW allows up to 20% bio, but I'm not sure.

VW may be going to a common rail system in the future. With unit injection, you're more limited on adjusting injection timing.

Cody, which one of us do you want to know where they work? There's a dozen or so different correspondents in this thread.

Under "Environment" and its subcategory "Pollutants"
the Jetta 1.9l (diesel) is compared to Honda Civic
hybrid in emitting nitrogen oxides. This is a diesel
engines worst category due to high sulphur content
in US diesel. Why not show the Jettas exellent
performance in the CO2 category?
No doubt this website is supported by the
hybrid industry.

I'm gonna add my opinion, despite the probablity that it'll never be read. :)

1) There are no hybrid wagons yet. :(
I was going to test drive a 2006 Civic hybrid, but its utility is extremely limited to someone that likes hauling bicycles and ski equipment around.

2) Looking at used car listings is a terrible way to determine car longevity. For one thing, the Japanese car makers have a much greater market share than VW does BY FAR. The pages and pages of people selling their Toyotas and Hondas is merely a reflection of their popularity. As such, there are going to be more statistical outliers -- the cars that have an enormous number of kilometres on them. As well, people that buy VWs MAY (I don't know, this is speculation) be less likely to sell them. They may also be more likely to drive them off of cliffs or take them to the wreckers'. The problem is that there are too many variables and statistical variations to claim that a used car listing is giving you an accurate representation of how long a car is likely to last.

3) Diesel engines aren't dirty, diesel fuel is dirty, which is an important distinction. In Europe, where the laws governing diesel fuel are more strict, the vehicles emit fewer pollutants.

4) Hopefully everyone can agree that if we all drove diesels and hybrids, the planet would be far better off than in the situation we see it now. Less fighting, more congratulating for the good choices that we all seem to be making!

J.S., I haul bicycles around on a weekly basis on my 2003 Honda Civic Hybrid with a strap-on trunk-lid-mounted bike carrier. I haul a kayak occasionally using a Yakima clip-on roof rack, which doubles as a snowboard carrier and even an IKEA bookshelf carrier. The "limited utility" you mention has an easy work-around.

I never thought I would own a VW TDI...my other vehicles are BMW 540, X5, Corvette and several others. We find ourselves fighting over the keys for the VW. It has the newer automatic that shifts similar to a standard transmission. I'm no going to explain it, do the research if you care. After looking into hybrids and the fantastic mythical milage we bought the VW. Before you jump all over me let me explain. Every test I've read, every magazine article I've read, every current hybrid owner I've spoken with says the milage is over rated by at leaset 20 to 30%. So much so that the goverment gas milage ratings will be changed next year to reflect the 20 to 30% disscrepency. Oh ya did I mention the Prius is just plain ugly. However, I welcome everything Toyota and Honda have done to put these vehicles in the main stream. Even with their reduction in milage they still get more milage per gallon than most while also forcing American car companies to apply this technology to it's current build plan. Back to the VW. It's truley fun to drive and the Epa numbers are actually under rated on diesels. The worst we have gotten is 44mpg, while the most on a trip was 54mpg. Not to hard to take. They no longer smell as they did years ago and they are surprising quick. If VW ever comes out with a hybrid diesel I would think it would get 70mpg. Now that would be a car!

someone here said that an electiric motor gets 200+ ft/lbs at 0-1500 rpm. With electric motors, the torque is entirely dependent on the amount of power (volts*amps) coming into the motor, at 0 rpm and 200+ ft/lbs of torque, most any eletrical motor would over heat and cause parts to melt. And, "diesel" trains are not truely hybrid, atleast not in the same manner that most cars are hybrid today; rather the diesel fuel goes into the diesel engine which run at a fairly constant RPM powering an electric generator, which inturns charges a battery and powers several electric motors. the reason for this, is it's much easier for the conductor the vary the output speed of electric motors-wheels then it is for him to vary the output speed of a piston driven engine-wheels, as this requires a transmission. But typical hybrids will not negate the need for a transmission. though, with the use of rotary or quasi-turbine engines or non-hybrid electrics can negate the need for a transmission. Oh, and H2 sucks, cause it offers no enviroment benifit unless the H2 is produced in a region that has hydro/wind or solar power. not to say this isn't possible, it's very well possible, but it'll also demand a dramatic infrastructre change. but I'd highly advocate it for use in race cars, as it deffinately has the explosive off the line power that leaves gasoline in the dust. literarly

all and all, I think bio-diesel running running through a turbine (jet (offers superiour fuel economy, when in it's very very narrow optimum torque operating RPM... otherwise, offers hidiously low fuel economy)) engine hybrid with a CVT (continuessly variable transmission); bio-diesel running through a rotary or quasi-turbine engine hybrid; or bio-diesel running through a turbine engine powering a eletric generator which inturn powers eletric motors at each of the drive wheels (eliminates heavy power train, increases adjustibility of wheel speeds) are the best fuel-economic, eco-friendly and power-practicle solutions.

as for Prious and the other "super fuel eco car hybrids", they suck, they're are motorcycles that get simular of better fuel economy running gas carbed 4 strokes that have simular utility (if you start lashing baggage onto a Prious or other "super eco car", you are going to decrease the aerodynamics considerable; whereas some motorcycles get 70 mpg with aerodynamics so bad you can't do much to make them worse), lower initial cost, lower maitinace cost, are easier to maintaine yourself (hence even cheaper) and are just awhole hell of a lot more fun.

safty derived from weight, only works by taking away safty from who ever you hit. and it's typically the heavier object hitting the lighter object. So, safty derived from weight basicly boils down to arrogence. Granted, MC's still have much smaller crunch zones, but they also have higher capability to avoid an accident all together.

and, most 300 lbs motorcycles get more then 51 mpg, and I can't even think of very many motorcycles that weigh 300 lbs. my motorcycle (which I bought in non-running order and don't have running yet, but according to documentation and other people with the same bike) is 589 cc and 318 lbs wet, and gets about 60-70 mpg. Lighter bikes, like Rebels, get better mileage, but lack speed and pick up (aka, fun); though they for some reason have higher safty ratings (atleast the Rebel does).... 51 mpg, I've seen for heavy bikes, like Harlyes, but not lighter bikes.... hell, Kawasaki has a bike that gets 120 mpg Diesel.... sure, they lack the ability to carry massive amounts of mass, but they have alot less of there own mass to carry around too.... but really, putting a Honda Rebel, or XL600, or Buell Blast in the same catagory as the Kawasaki KLR 650 or anything Harley; makes as much sense as putting a Saturn SL200 in the same catagory as the Prious or Humvee..... but anyway, unless you are counting old fashion high displacement 2 strokes (newer 2 strokes use direct fuel injection, and don't suffer from having the intake and exhaust open at the same time), I can't think of any bikes that would weight ~300 lbs and get <70 mpg.

H2, has to be seperated from water; this requires electricity. there is no point to even look at H2 untill you have clean power plants. But, for the current day; though H2 lacks any "eco friendly" incentive, it packs alot of "G force friendly" incentive.

and Michael claimed: "295 lb-ft at 0-1200 rpm in the Prius"

I don't believe for a moment that it can generate 295 ft*lbs at 0 rpm. For it do so would require a whole hell of a lot of amps and a very high resistence. this combination makes alot of heat.

Biodiesel IS renewable energy.

In fact according to the EPA numbers an Accord EX non-hybrid automatic has exactly the same rating as the Accord V6 hybrid, 28 mpg overall (and less than my Passat diesel, which is rated at 31 mpg overall).

It seems to me that the hybrid Accord is just to calm the consciences of people wanting to drive a 255 hp V6. Why pay extra for the hybrid when the base 4-cyl motor has plenty of pep (160 hp) for anybody's real needs, and can be had in the all-dressed EX trim level? It certainly isn't worth the hefty price premium Honda charges. There's NO WAY that it will pay for itself, especially if financed.

Hybrid technology only make sense to me if there's a real gain in economy that can generate a payback. Maybe a Prius or Civic hybrid has a chance but an Accord (or SUV hybrid)? Never.

Please people chill out a bit on what is BETTER. Both are great but there is no perfect answer...both hybrids and diesels have their pros and cons. Both are more economical than bigger, fatter cars. But both are worse than taking a bus, walking or biking and WE MISS THE WHOLE POINT IF WE DRIVE A LOT MORE IN OUR NEW HYBRIDS OR DIESELS THAN WE DID IN LESS ECONOMICAL OR LESS "GREEN" CARS.

Someone made a good simple point that if you drive in traffic and in town more, hybrids may make more sense, but if you log more miles on the open road diesel (TDIs etc) make more sense. Again, there is no perferct answer...so please folks no need to over-obsess!

I don't own a bike, EV1. I fail to see what the cottage industry of Corbinmobiles has to do with what I was talking about.

And Steve, I don't see anything extraordinary about the fact that a motorcycle and hybrid get similar mileage.
1- a gallon of gasoline has a standard amount of BTUs
2- the ICE can't be engineered with much more efficiency than it already has
3- motorcycles have a horrible Cd
4- hybrids are slower by an order of magnitude

A bike's not just "more nimble," it's a whole other category of motoring.

Take Weight/Power of a fuel-saving hybrid or diesel and you'll see it's somewhere in the 20s or low 30s. The ultralightweight, 190hp Lotus Elise is somewhere around 10. A $180,000 Ferrari is 6.5.

A multimillion dollar Formula One ride clocks in at 1.5 and a $10k superbike around 2. Yeah, it's like that. And ridden delicately it'll return comparable mileage to hybrids.

If you took half the drivetrain technology available in a hybrid or turbodiesel and slapped it on a bike you'd be getting double the mileage of an Insight.

There's nothing amazing about it; it's just physics.

Spad, I stand corrected.

A nearly 3000lb vehicle gets about the same MPG as a 500lb one.
Pretty amazing.
Now that the weather is broken I'm back into the upper 50's-low 60's MPG.
And yes, motorcycles are more nimble than automobiles.

Have to agree with Tony about the Jetta TDI's
MPG. Each time I fill up I write down gls and
mileage. I have yet to get less than 40.
On longer trips I got 53 mpg otherwise I get
an average of 45mpg with my five speed stick.
Tony is referring to a DSG transmission which
is a revolution. It satisfies everone and give
execellent mpg. Just enter "VW DSG" in search engine.

I agree totally with Aaron.

However, because of the Canadian pricing on a Toyota Prius ... I would have purchased a Volkswagon TDI if I had not purchased my Prius while in the US.

Have any of you done research on the new duramax or powerstroke? These motors are great!! They have more horsepower and torque than any of the weenie hybrid cars. If you hit a hybrid car with one of these trucks you will completely demolish the car and hopefully the yuppy person driving the piece of junk. End of story.

Unibody more durable than body-on-frame? Interesting.

Honda Prius that makes "295 lb-ft at 0-1200 rpm"?
Toyota.com lists the 2006 at 82 ft-lbs. For the one I test drove it seems more in line.

Extolling the virtues of MiMH batteries? Wow.

Obviously a lot of people have made up their mind.
I think hybrids would sell better if their owners came across less fanatical. Yes, they sell all they make, but they only amount to about 2% of U.S. manufacturing.

As mentioned ULSD (ultra low sulfer diesel) is on the way which will clean up diesel's rep as being "dirty." We should see a surge in more diesel cars just like in Europe (over 40% of new cars sold). If they can build clean diesel we should be able to also.

I haven't bought a diesel or a hybrid yet but I am test driving to see what is available. I am not going to buy a hybrid just because it is a "Toyota" or because it is trendy.

To be honest, so far, I like driving the VW TDI's much better than the hybrids. Go ahead flame away.

Johntinson:
"Don't forget that 50% of all diesel cars ever built for the U.S. market are STILL on the road"

Then why aren't they seen?
Million mile cars?
Where's your evidence other than what you say?

Most Prius owners average around 48MPG
http://www.greenhybrid.com/compare/mileage/toyota-priushsd.html

I guess if one can just post any ol thing regardless of truth then I'll report that hybrids will always save you money, and will always come out ahead.
They get better 0-60 times as well.

Ahh...you are talking about the large trucks.

I'll agree a hybrid is not a good choice in that matter...but I thought we were talking passenger cars.

I've studied diesel autos quite a bit and think they are a great alternative to a regular gasoline passenger vehicle.
So are some hybrid vehicles.

A four of my co-workers drives 04 and '05 Jettas and gets mid to upper 30's MPG and don't like their cars for several reasons. One '05 owner says that if it got better mileage it would be OK.
Are you saying that I should judge *all* diesel autos this way?

I don't think so.

A diesel engine still contributes to the problems of air quality and dependence on mideast oil. A hybrid owner is choosing to no longer be part of those problems.

Hybrid cars get better mpg than gasoline same with diesel cars. that how america will e indepence of imported oil. no one never said that hybrid car did not use any gas just less. the real issue is we all need to take account mpg when buying a car.

Hybrids are also gouged more. For example, Priuses sell for around $26-27k. Hybrids also haven't been around as long, so you can't find a cheap hybrid.

Diesels have been around longer, making diesel powered vehicles within more budgets. ANd there's also the potential for wvo.

I think most (if not quite all) of dieel's emissions problems will be solved now that clean diesel is here. Maybe they might also be allowed back into California.

"Not to mention the diesel turbo charger which is more probematic than a hybrid. Hybrids don't even have turbochargers "

Diesel turbochargers are relatively trouble-free if you resist the temptation to "chip" the ECU to increase boost and output. Diesel exhaust is much lower temperature than gasoline exhaust which considerably reduces stress on the turbo. That's not to say that they never fail but from what I read on TDIClub.com turbo failures are relatively rare.

Gas cars BTW, have way more than catalytic converters to clean up exhaust. There are O2 sensors, temperature sensors, exhaust-gas recirculation, charcoal filters for gasoline vapours, mass airflow sensors, and the list goes on. Not really any more or less than diesels, just different.

As for smoking 6-8 year old diesels, which particular models are you speaking of? TDIs, which are direct-injection with full electronic engine controls, or the older VW diesels with fully mechanical injection pumps, no electronic controls, and indirect injection? I see an awful lot of TDIs on the road here, from the earliest ones (40% of VW's Canadian sales are TDIs), and I have yet to see one smoking. Can't say the same thing for the older IDI diesels though; but then again, compare your hybrid to a 80's vintage carburetor gasoline car and you can be sure your hybrid will come off looking better; I've been stunk out by plenty of out-of-adjustment gassers as well, it's just more visible with older diesels (soot). On my commute to work in the morning I usually see at least a dozen TDIs of various vintage and none of them smoke.

Most of what I read about hybrid highway mileage shows that people are getting less than what you get. On the other hand many diesel drivers get less than I do as well. I figure if I have an efficient car I may as well extract the maximum efficiency for it (but without driving slower than the speed limit). Coming home tonight my 38 mpg EPA rated Passat was giving me about 44 mpg on the highway at 100 km/h (the speed limit). This is in a 3500 lb mid-sized family car. I can get 50 mpg in our more compact Jetta with the smaller engine.

At launch the BMW 1 Series was available with a choice of four engine: 1.6 litre - 116i and 2.0 litre - 120i petrol engines and a 2.0 litre diesel engine with two power outputs the 122 bhp - 118d and the 163 bhp - 120d.

We tested the higher output 120d, which is equipped with a 2.0 litre turbo-charged common rail diesel engine mated to a standard 6-speed manual gearbox. Should you wish the 120d can also be specified with a 6-speed automatic gearbox (£1485 option) featuring the Adaptive Gearbox System with Steptronic manual gear selection.

From the moment you press the starter button you know you are going to experience something special. The engine produces 163 bhp @ 4,000 rpm and 340Nm of torque @ 2,000 rpm enabling the 120d to accelerate from 0-62 mph in just 7.9 seconds and continue to a terminal speed of 137 mph. Just as impressive is the 50-75 mph acceleration figure in fourth gear of just 6.6 seconds. The precise, short throw gearshift makes for quick and effortless changes.

Until recently, like many people, we were not really diesel fans, considering them to be smelly, slow and noisy but how things have changed - the 1 Series 120d is testament to this. Here we have a diesel sports hatchback that can reach 62 mph in 7.9 seconds. One of our team used to own a Porsche 944 that quoted a comparable figure and would also reach a similar top speed. To top this off BMW quote a combined fuel consumption figure of 49.6 miles to the gallon. Of course you can tell that the car is powered by a diesel engine, the power delivery is different to that of a petrol car and the engine chatters at idle but no longer do you have to put up with a slow noisy engine. In practice you do forget that you are driving a diesel and it is only at the fuel pump that it really affects you and only for the better.

We found the 120d to be powerful, flexible, fugal and smooth - what more could you want?

BMW have recently announced the introduction of the BMW 130i - a car powered by the world’s lightest 3.0-litre six-cylinder petrol engine which powers the BMW 130i from zero to 62mph in 6.2 seconds and on to a top speed of 155mph. For more information [ click here ]

How It Drove - Ride/Handling

. The new diesel standards were supposed to be in effect in 2007 so we should get lower sulpher and less polutants. The main problem with diesel emmisions are that people see the soot (particulates), while they do not see the nasty stuff from gas engines.

I must admit I was a little hesitant to look at a deisel car until I drove my brother's VW Golf TDI. They have a ton of torque and is very driveable, with great mileage - average 45-48 MPG....more if you drive nice. :-) Now I own two VW diesels and am just dying for other car manufacturers (besides the nice but expensive Mercedes) to put diesels into the new cars. I know that Dodge is putting a small diesel into the Calibur in Europe, but not here. The new common rail diesel engines are lot quieter and cleaner than the old engines. My 2004 is much quieter than my 1999, but I never see smoke from either one of them; unlike the Ford/Chevy/Dodge trucks that are usually chipped and modded. (My Golf is chipped and modded and still does not smoke) With all the hoopla of BioDiesel, we still do not have very many options for cars that can use it. Get with it manufacturers! People: Request (or demand) diesel cars! Go test drive one....you will be surprised and pleased.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0CYH/is_2_7/ai_97757261

Honda Diesel Sets New World Records

Date: May 07, 2004 18:07
Submitted by: Jeff
Source: Honda UK PR
Credibility Rating: N/A

Honda’s new Accord 2.2 i-CTDi Sport has this week set no fewer than 19 world speed records and achieved 3.07 litres / 100 km (92 imperial mpg, ~76.6 US mpg) fuel economy to boot. British racing driver Robin Liddell and freelance journalist Iain Robertson were part of the European record-setting team.

Amongst the speed records set, which were all achieved in Production Car Class B (2000 – 2500 cc), were 133.04 mph (1 mile flying start), 84.25 mph (1 mile standing start) and an average speed of 130.38 mph over a 24-hour endurance period. These records were all set at Papenburg high-speed oval test track in north-west Germany on 1 and 2 May, and are all subject to FIA ratification.

Two production cars, randomly selected by FIA officials, were used to undertake the speed records, and apart from the fitting of roll-cages, racing harnesses and radio equipment for track-to-pits communication, no other modifications were made to the cars.

Following the speed record attempts, the same two cars were then driven 419 miles from Papenburg test track to Wiesbaden, near Frankfurt in order to complete the fuel economy run. The route comprised of a mixture of motorway and non-motorway driving, during which one of the Accords achieved a staggering 92 imperial mpg (US mpg=~76.6) average.

The project, whose aim was to demonstrate the performance and economy of the Accord i-CTDi, was a joint production between Honda, the FIA and Italian-based JAS Motorsport, who managed fuelling and pit-stops.

Honda UK’s driver in the speed record attempt, Robin Liddell, who has previously raced at Le Mans 24-hours, as well as the American Le Mans Series and the BRDC British GT championship, commented: "The car’s performance is very impressive, demonstrated by the records we’ve achieved. Honda has made real steps forward in styling, ergonomics and interior design with the new Accord Diesel and now has a package that can take on the best cars in its class."

A complete list of speed records, all subject to FIA ratification, is as follows:

1 mile
Flying start
133.035 mph

1000 metres
Flying start
133.115 mph

1/8-mile
Standing start
42.865 mph

500 metres
Standing start
58.672 mph

¼-mile
"
54.198 mph

1000 metres
"
73.277 mph

1 mile
"
84.250 mph

10 kilometres
"
118.487 mph

10 miles
"
123.138 mph

100 kilometres
"
130.435 mph

100 miles
"
131.036 mph

500 kilometres
"
130.381 mph

500 miles
"
131.032 mph

1000 kilometres
"
130.629 mph

1000 miles
"
130.786 mph

1 hour
Standing start
131.257 mph

6 hours
"
130.490 mph

12 hours
"
130.378 mph

24 hours
"
130.379 mph

Last edited by Jeff on May 10, 2004 12:38

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Subject Thread Originator Replies Last Post
I dont believe it
carcrazy84 6 04-13-2006 06:29
by 850

Diesel Hybrid
NSXman 2 04-13-2006 06:13
by 850

3.2L Turbodiesel CDi
Freak! 3 04-03-2006 05:52
by 850

What are its NOx and PM emissions?
xcel 0 07-16-2004 00:46
by xcel

Honda diesel
Arup 0 07-06-2004 09:47
by Arup

Diesel Accord/NSX engineers
NSXman 0 05-12-2004 18:40
by NSXman

Same Turbo like Honda HSC!!!
Terencemunro 7 05-12-2004 16:43
by Sloets

What needs to happen...
Dren 6 05-11-2004 20:12
by flanka

Bring it to the States!
Mike Freitas 12 05-11-2004 16:46
by Szklanny

Diesel KILL PEOPLE - Let's bring it to the States
danielgr 7 05-11-2004 15:00
by Terencemunro

ARCO's new diesel fuel will have a low sulfur content of 15 ppm
Calif 1 05-10-2004 22:01
by Calif

Pollution
Honda-D 0 05-10-2004 12:38
by Honda-D

Wonder what kind of tranny is used
ipribadi 1 05-10-2004 08:49
by Jeff

Should of made a 3.0 turbo diesel
ipribadi 4 05-10-2004 08:28
by Jeff

Come on Honda get your diesel engines out!
BMC 1 05-09-2004 18:15
by dodole

Absolutely Amazing
dreamnhonda 7 05-09-2004 15:19
by jba

Honda Diesel
longlivehonda 0 05-09-2004 00:32
by longlivehonda

11hrs between pits stops?
TonyE 3 05-09-2004 00:21
by TonyE

Any other times/MPG for comparison?
BaddaBing 3 05-09-2004 00:11
by BaddaBing

1/4 mile trap vs top speed
outersquare 1 05-08-2004 22:42
by Jeff

Uau...(From Portugal...)
f.pena 0 05-08-2004 16:42
by f.pena

Incredible
RJC RSX 0 05-08-2004 15:34
by RJC RSX

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RAV Diesel

http://www.carsurvey.org/review_37191.html

"Ahh...you are talking about the large trucks.

I'll agree a hybrid is not a good choice in that matter...but I thought we were talking passenger cars."

We are talking passenger cars. Truck or car, diesels last longer before major overhaul. The average diesel engine is simpler, heavier-built, and will far outlast a similar displacement gas engine given similar use, it's inherent in the diesel's sturdier build, method of ignition, wear profile and average rpm at peak power. Anyone who would attempt to argue that gas engines outlive diesels hasn't studied automotive technology for very long. If nothing else for the top-end wear on a gasser. Notice how on many high-mileage gas engines of 150,000 miles or so, many have undergone a top-end overhaul. The higher-rpm operation tires the valve springs and you end up put a valve into a piston and destroying it.

The Hybrid relieves us in the United States of dependence on mideast oil by reducing consumption to a level wehere we can take care of ourselves. This weeks newsweek has an important article on the future if left unchnged supported by facts from the last two weeks and prior.

Air quality problems are mounting in cities and vehicle emmissions have primary responsibiltiy.

Driving a hybrid is a statement by those who no longer want to be part of the problem. Diesel engines continue to worsen both of these problems.

Hi MOS

Your statement May03..regarding dependence
on Mideast oil..
"A hybrid owner chooses to no longer be part of
those problems"
Where the heck does he get the gas from???

Also is a hybrid cleaner than the NEWEST
technology in diesels running on sulphur free
diesel mexed with biodiesel?

Johntinson wrote:
"Diesels last longer before major overhaul. The average diesel will far outlast a similar gas engine given similar use. Anyone who would attempt to argue that gas engines outlive diesels hasn't studied automotive technology for very long.

Ok, enlighten me. Show me the proof.
Show me a definitive study which shows this more than the popular myth portrayed by diesel enthusiasts.
I also believe you've posted that 50% of all diesel cars are still on the road today.

Just because it is said doesn't make it so.
The moon was made of cheese years ago wasn't it?

We import 60% of our oil from a dwindling number of available countries who pump at max ouput. By drving a hybrid, I have decreased my gallons of gas by 67% by moving from a 20 MPG car to a 50 MPG vehicle.

A siziable chunk of folks driving hybrid vehicles that get this mileage or better ( like the 2007 Honda Fit Hybrid) can clearly and easily impact dependence on foreign oil. When the army of truely affordable high mileage hybrids become avialble as the next few years progress less efficient cars are going to be replaced by ones with MUCh higher fuel efficiency. The transition is actually going to be fairly quick.

Biodeisel is great don't get me wrong. But most diesel engines ( as in 99%) dont fill up on animal fat throwaways. They go to the gas station and pollute the air badly, basically about as far away as you can get from a partial zero emission vehicle like the hybrids.

A hybrid owner in the US is clearly making a statement and becoming part of the solution, instead of prolonging a problem.

Mos,
You may think you are making a statement. But the statement most big SUV drivers are hearing is that "you're just a dorky dweeb blocking the carpool lane". The only people who are hearing the statement you think you are making already get it.
Try focusing on doing the right thing for the right reason rather than just being so snooty. See the link in the Brad's "smugness" thread on this site.

Mike G and Ex EV-1 driver

Thanks you are right on target.

Pollution can be sharply reduced with sulphur
free gasoline and diesel starting this fall.
For gasoline engines to take advantage of that
they need a direct injection system. Not many
cars come with them in the US. I know the FSI
system in VW and Audi in their 2.0T engine
will benefit from sulphur free gasoline.
A great way to reduce fuel consupmtion and
pollution on gasoline engines is to install
a plug is water jacket heater for about $100
on a gasoline car. Before going to work in the morning the car has already warmed up making
the cat work immidiately. It also reduce gas use
and there is much less wear on engine.

Why do Europeans drive diesel cars?
Because the price of gasoline is taxed up to 75%:
http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lists/global_gasprices/

Per gallon:
$6.48 Netherlands
$5.79 UK
$5.59 France

Seems to me that since diesels are already intrenched in Europe they aren't going to move to a better technology.
I don't blame them with those prices.
It's too bad their governments retard technology advancement with their greediness.

With high taxes on european fuels there is an
even better incentive to move from gas and
diesel cars. In the mean time diesels has a great
advantage over gasoline cars.
That make sense to most people. More expensive
fuel will spur research to better fuel economy or
find alternate fuel.

Hi Mike G

My first car trip to Quebec City was in March, 1985
or maybe 1985. I had a diesel VW Rabbit then.
Gave me 38-40mpg with this older technology
diesel, but it started next morning (with a noisy warmup). It was minus 22 C (around 3 F).
Then we drove to Quebec City where the temp was
the same. No starting problems.
We have driven to Quebec City since in the summer and will probably go again. Great place to visit and friendly people. Next trip will be in a TDI looking for Shell stations. By the way I use Shell
Rotella Synthetic 5-40 ch-4 rating.

Abandoned gasoline cars when gasoline is cheap.
That does not make sense. What make sense is
that high prices on fuel create a demand for
frugal cars and the diesel car was the easiest and
cheapest way to go. In order to reduce pollution the
sulphur content in both gas and diesel iin Europe
is 15ppm or less. This also made the gasoline
saving direct fuel injection for gas engines a popular thing in Europe. The expression "in Europe"
should be carefully used even when talking about
member countries in EU. For example taxation of fuel varies from one country to the other.
I personally know that diesel in Scandinavia is
about 8-10 % cheaper than gas mostly to simpler production at the refinery then also to lower taxes.
In the US we go the opposite way. Many states have higher diesel taxes and play favorite to
hybrids like tax credits (read government subsidy)
and use of car pool lane for huge suv hybrids!!!
Make sense!!!

FYI TODAYS(5/6/06) in this case Norway

Diesel per liter $1.83 gasoline $1.83

Not much of a difference is it?

Keep in mind this is one country. There is no such
thing as a set "european prices"

Mos

Can u explain why u compare yesterdays technology diesels to todays modern hybrid
and gasoline cars. Would like to see your answer.
Yes old diesel engines with dirty diesel fuel
pollute, but so do old gasoline cars and trucks.
Especially on CO2.
How about comparing modern MB, VW, Toyota,
Honda etc new diesel engine running on
clean diesel fuel.
Would like to see if u have an answer.

I'll agree that most of the new diesel autos don't smoke, it's the older ones.

The problem is when the new diesel cars get older there you are again.

Yes I've read so many times that the NEW technology won't do that but it plays like a skipping record...It's the same old claim year after year after year, then there you are struggling to breathe behind that nasty ol VW Golf.

Only a few short years ago when that nasty ol Golf was new, was touted as "clean". "New technology". "Reliable"

Instead of relying on wild, unsubstantiated claims like "more than 50% of all diesel cars are still on the road today" I'll go with evidence around me along with research.

Who knows I might be proven wrong as these new TDI's get a few years behind them.
But that's not likely given ALL of diesels false claims of the past...and present.

What I meant by "flaws" are things associated with diesel cars, like scanning over stations to find a diesel pump or sign which was discussed here recently. Other things as well, like admitting the unique diesel smell I mentioned earlier.

To his credit I think ONE person here admitted that ALL stations don't sell diesel. I believe he also mentioned it wasn't a problem.

That's a BIG step in honesty among diesel enthusiasts, most won't even admit to that very obvious fact.
It's that kind of honesty which me, and I suspect many others appreciate and can begin to take diesel more seriously.

Doesnt this guy understand that ifmore diesel cars
were sold in the US more and more gas stations
would sell diesel and if it is such a problem today why dont small diesel delivery trucks have a problem finding diesel...I am happy to fill up
from my own 275gls tank in garage

"Someone" is predicting the future. He knows that
hybrid batteries will last forever and he also know
that the newest diesel engines will be clogged by
the ultra low sulphur diesel.
LINKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!LINKS!!!!!!!!!!!

Another link for the "link man", but he probably
rather not read this one

http://www.businessweek.com/autos/content/feb2006/bw20060208_589016.htm

Government makes has so far done a lot to stop
diesel cars by not mandating diesel fuel to be clean
like other western countries. In the meantime they
force us all to subsidize complex hybrid cars.
Read above link again.

"Instead of relying on wild, unsubstantiated claims... I'll go with evidence around me along with research. "

B.S. Steve, total B.S. You'll stick to your pre-conceived biases. You got your cited quote from John. You also got a point-by-point technical description of the diesel vs. gas engine, which you failed to refute, explaining why the average gas-engined car ain't going to last as long as the average diesel. That's not 'wild unsubstantiated claims' by any standard.

Now, damning all diesel passenger cars, including biodiesel and svo-veg oil cars because of the exhaust of a poorly tuned school bus or a Ford F-350 1-ton truck in front of you, THAT's wild and unsubstantiated criticism. Obviously you haven't ridden the vegg oil busses in Colorado, or driven a converted SVO diesel passenger car, they only make one hungry (french-fry smell).

Pointless to argue with a guy like that.

Aaron- Thanks for your question. We all want to have cleaner air, better fuel efficiency from our cars, and less dependence on middle eastern oil over time.

The Hybrid solutions do offer these things in sveral cars like the Toyota Prius and Honda Civic as well as a slew of soon to be released smaller hybrid cars in the 15,000 dollar range starting in 2007.

Purchasing a hybrid means less time going to the gas station and no other changes in lifestyle. I do agree that some of the hybrid SUVs are somewhat silly, but are better choices than a diesel powered Ford Excursion for instance.

Diesel has a lot of unrealized potential here in the US as posted in some of the above narratives, but inreality the typical offereings in place have more pollution emissions and are NOT as fuel efficient in terms of MPG. You need to be over 45 MPG to be in the hybrid competitor category to get there. Also, Diesel gas stations are not in every neighborhhod as well.

Although an interim technology, some of the hybrids out there now as well as some in the near future are choices of conscience for those wanting to become part of a solution to air pollution and foriegn oil dependence issues. BY the 1000s of gallons per year and tons of emissions per lifetime of vehicle.

MOS...u must live on the North Slope of Alaska.
Far between diesel station. As I had mention before
here on Long Island there are 8 (possibly more)
on a 16miles highway stretch between my house
and where I work. Surely there are probably
3 times that number selling gasoline. Therefore
I drive in fear that my 600 miles rang TDI will
run out of diesel before I make it to the next station. Did you ever realize that if more people
purchased fuel efficient diesel then more stations
will sell diesel.
Anyhow if you are worried about lack of diesel fuel
how can we ever start using hydrogen cars.
How far between are those pumps.
Would like to see comments not skirting the issues.

Yea, notice how the the hybrid pushers continue to 'forget' about 45mpg diesels like the Jetta/Golf TDI, continue to omit any reference to biodiesel, or the lower emissions of alternative fuels. Hell if Toyota had put a small 1.2L turbodiesel in their new subcompact it would be getting 60 mpg now - instead of 36 on gasoline.

When you get down to brass tacks, the people who didn't like diesels 20 years ago are giving the same old wornout excuses they don't like them today. Meanwhile our nation faces an economic catastrophe which hybrids and pie-in-the-sky hydrogen technology can't possible solve on their own. Despite government tax incentives their popularity is already starting to cool as repair costs for the driveline and computer systems start to add up.

If you want to really help the environment and the country, give up your gasoline prejudices and try an economical, hi-mpg bio-fueled vehicle sometime. Lowering emissions with a cleaner-burning, made-in-America fuel feels great.

The war in Iraq cost us 80-100 Billions a year.
We import oil for 3 times that every year.
Time to use less by also make incentives for
clean, frugal diesel engines. Give them incentive
and favors like the hybrids have then the consumer
can choose. Cant wait for Biodiesel (made in USA)
mix come to NY area. A good site is
Willie Nelson Biodiesel.
Lets help sufferin american farmers rather than sending our money to not so friendly countries.
Let the gasoline users have Ethanol and 10 year from now we can compare notes.

The VW Jetta TDI is the best diesel offering in the US at 32/43 MPG EPA ratings. Emissions are still concerning, particularly as the vehicle ages.

The better hybrid offerings are 49/51 and 51/60 with a much more favorable emissions profile.

Hybrid over Diesel by the facts on the ground now.

MOS...havent you read any of the inputs above
or kept yourself informed? Maybe you dont want
to know, but as of Aug/Sep 2006 gas and diesel
will be practically sulphur free!!!!!!!

Just to give a few numbers with our TDIs:

2004 Jetta TDI wagon (1.9 liter, 100 hp/177 lb-ft, 5-speed manual): 47-48 mpg average in daily commuting.

2005 Passat TDI (2.0 liter, 134 hp, 247 lb-ft, 5-speed automatic): 38-40 mpg in daily commuting.

No straining to achieve this, just respecting speed limits (62 mph/100 km/h in Quebec), about 85% highway/10% city, 5% rural.

Range with the Jetta: record is 816 miles, and with the Passat 700 miles. Those are MILES, not kilometers (for the record, 1306 km and 1120 km respectively)

Ron wrote on May 7:
"you failed to refute, explaining why the average gas-engined car ain't going to last as long as the average diesel"

Look at the vast overwhelming clear evidence. Old diesels don't overwhelm the old gassers. It's about even. They don't last longer or shorter.

This is rediculous.
So what you are saying is that while someone posts wild claims that folks should injest it as truth.
I say NO!
Do your own research.
There is zero evidence that diesel cars last longer on average.

The Prius is a newer design than Jetta TDI, but
look who came out first in USA Today
test. Any comment from the subsidized hybrid
crowd?

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2004-06-10-diesel-vs-hybrid_x.htm

The problem with many of you hybrid supporters
is that you think there are 3 or 4 kinds of diesel cars namely Jetta TDI, MB E class, newer type of
huge Ford/Chrysler/GMC truck and all those old
smoking buses.
But the rest of the world is full of clean effiecient
diesel cars. All brands have them.
Here is one that gets 80mpg.

http://www.audiworld.com/news/99/a2_2/content.shtml

...and the next thing I will hear from the hybrid people "I was behind this bus...'
They will never get it

Daimler's system, called BlueTec, uses a catalytic converter and specialized filters to reduce harmful nitrogen-oxide emissions. The company is betting BlueTec will turn U.S. drivers on to diesel and give hybrids fresh competition. The reason: Mercedes clean-diesel cars will cost less than an equivalent hybrid while offering greater power and acceleration, plus up to 40% better mileage over conventional gas engines. That's a lure for Americans who love big cars and off-road vehicles. And diesels can go 500 miles without a fill-up.

Diesel has floundered in the U.S. because oil companies haven't offered the clean fuel required in Europe. Since diesel pollutes more than regular gas in the U.S., such big markets as California and New York refuse to register new diesel cars. Later this year, though, the feds will require oil companies to switch to the low-sulfur diesel long available in Europe, eliminating the soot problem.

But Daimler's exhaust-treatment technology will go a big step further, cleaning up to 80% of the remaining nitrogen-oxide emissions. That, combined with good mileage, will make diesel a truly green U.S. driving alternative for the first time. DaimlerChrysler CEO Dieter Zetsche likens Mercedes' emissions-control solution to Silicon Valley tech breakthroughs. "It's our intention that customers regard BlueTec for diesels [as] similar to 'Intel (INTC ) Inside' for PCs," says Zetsche.

That sounds like a stretch. But many industry experts believe a new generation of clean-diesel cars will eventually win over Americans and that diesel will become the dominant technology for fuel-efficient autos. While hybrids get better mileage only in the city, diesel cars consume less fuel in all driving conditions. Market researcher J.D. Power & Associates (MHP ) (like BusinessWeek, a unit of The McGraw-Hill Companies) forecasts diesel will take 11.8% of the U.S. market by 2015, up from about 3% now. Says Anthony Pratt, a senior J.D. Power analyst: "We think it will fly, and the Europeans have the most to gain."

Daimler isn't the only one to recognize the opportunity. Volkswagen, which is working on two different clean-diesel technologies, saw its U.S. diesel sales double in 2005, to 25% of total sales. It already sells Jetta, Golf, and Beetle diesel models in the U.S. The first VW clean-diesel model will be a Touareg SUV, slated to launch this year. BMW and Audi also have plans for diesels, as do Nissan (NSANY ) and Honda. (HMC ) If the Japanese mass marketers put their muscle behind diesel, it will suddenly have much broader appeal.

USER-FRIENDLY PUMPS
Daimler, which also intends to put BlueTec into Chryslers, appears to have an early jump, but hurdles remain. Perhaps the biggest: Oil companies need to update their filling stations with modern, user-friendly pumps for passenger cars. And some diesel critics note that the cost of the equipment to clean up diesel's emissions will bring the premium for clean-diesel cars close to that of a hybrid, especially in smaller models.

Mercedes insists that the premium over a gasoline E-Class will be less than $2,000, compared with at least $4,000 for a hybrid. Even that added cost could be partially offset if the U.S. government proceeds with plans to offer diesel the same tax benefits hybrids now enjoy. Toyota Motor Corp. (TM ) may have stolen the limelight on fuel efficiency with its hybrid Prius. But if the new crop of Daimler clean diesels catches on, the real debate about green car technology may be just beginning.
READER COMMENTS

By Gail Edmondson, with bureau reports

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Toyota Yaris diesel (not sold in the US) average
mpg 64 in mixed driving

...and the title on this discussion is
"Hybrid or Diesel"...I would think it is ok
to contribute even if I am a diesel enthusiast or
do the hybrid enthusiasts want to discuss among
themselves then I will stay out of this

Too bad Toyota probably won't import the Yaris diesel into the US. It would be a cheap alternative to the VW Rabbit diesel (VW is changing the name back to Rabbit). My first car was an old Camry diesel, but it got totaled by an idiot on the cell phone making an illegal left turn the second day I got it.

Then it would be at the cheaper level, hybrid (Honda Fit) Vs. diesel (Yaris). I think the Yaris is cuter than the Fit.

Also, having spent significant numbers of months across Western and Eastern Europe, the small diesel cars I actually see driven around are big time polluters. They would never pass an emissions test here in the US, nor do they apparently have to. And yes, a lot of these are older cars. But this could be what diesel engines do as a car ages and the emissions controls run their course. Also, very noisy. I don't doubt adavnces and efficiencies in diesel engines for a minute, but the reality on the ground today isn't encouraging to me. I do recognize some of the advantages in Fuel Efficiency of some diesel cars, but I believe these are being eclipsed by Hybrid and ethanol technologies based on the growing availability sales of hybrids as well as the dual engines ford and GM make for Brazil.

Bjorn I looked over your link to eee.gov.
It's a very informative 101 on diesel basics.
The vague title is meaningless.
Where's the data?
Where's the proof?

I haven't the time at the moment but later hope to check out your other links later this eve.
Hopefully there will be some study of proof there.

Sincerely, thanks for the links....at least you offer some.

In the mean time I'll report that Hybrid cars with their original batteries last at least half a million miles on average.

It bugs me also that the anti-diesel crowd are basing their opinions on observations of older technology.

There are sound reasons to expect that the new diesels will not deteriorate as much when they get older. Moreover, I have been nearly fumed to death by plenty of older 80s and early 90s gassers, spewing oil fumes and unburnt fuel from poorly maintained and adjusted engines. What makes you think that this is any better than worn-out diesels? I rather find worn-out gassers worse in fact, and the fumes are more volatile.

In fact what you're doing is as dishonest as if I compared current fuel-injected gasoline engines to early 80's carburetted gasoline engines.

But back to why new-generation diesels cannot be compared to the old smoke-belchers of the '80s.

Quite apart from direct injection, is the manner in which diesel fuel injection systems now work. The '80s diesels relied on purely mechanical injection pumps with purely mechanical injection timing. Like any mechanical components, they wear out and when they fall out of spec the injection timing is no longer as precise and so they start to smoke more.

On VW TDIs of the first generation, a rotary injection pump was used with electronic injection timing.

On the current unit-injector systems, there is no fuel injection pump but there's a low-pressure pump that pressurizes the fuel feed to the unit injectors. These injectors themselves are pressurized off the camshaft; the camshaft operates a spring-loaded rocker arm that pressurizes the injector to about 20,000 psi. The actual fuel delivery and timing is done by adjusting the opening of the nozzle and this is achieved electronically. There is no injection pump per se, but rather 4 individual unit injectors (on a 4-cyl diesel).

Other manufacturers, and soon VW, use common-rail systems. A high-pressure injection pump keeps the fuel lines to the injectors pressurized at very high pressure (20,000 psi or so). Again electronic control of the injector meters fuel delivery and timing; with common rail you can also time multiple squirts on the same power stroke for finer control of emissions which is not possible with unit injectors as the pressurization is not constant with unit injectors.

Like any mechanical device they are subjected to wear but at least the injection timing remains under electronic control with newer generation diesels. Gas cars can also wear out. Catalysts don't have infinite life, throttle bodies can wear out, compression can go down, oil consumption can go up. All have negative effects and I challenge anybody to prove that there are no smoke-belching gassers out there. Fortunately though many jurisdictions have mandatory emissions testing so theoretically both bad gassers and bad diesels can be weeded out or sent for repairs.

Oh, and for MOS, the reason Toyota cannot meet emissions in the USA has little to do with diesel technology, and everything to do with the crappy high-sulphur sludge that passes as diesel fuel in North America. But this will end in 2007 and Shell Canada have in fact started distribution of ultra-low sulphur diesel in Quebec and Alberta.

Diesels have proven to be part of the (clean) solution in environmentally conscious Europe for at least a decade now. The longer it takes for you to jump on this train, the longer you will remain shackled to foreign fuel. A 70 mpg Yaris or Fit is possible with a diesel with less complexity and at lower cost than a hybrid. Europe already has far less dependence on oil than North America, and with very few hybrids as well.

Sorry here is the link

http://www.businessweek.com/autos/content/apr2006/bw20060427_580559.htm?chan=autos_autos+index+page_autos+lede

...and where are the links proving that todays
new diesels will clog up from the ultra low sulphur?
Last September I was in Greece and took a cab to
and from the airport to the city. The cab had a
contract with the hotel and the driver /owner of
this MB E-class CDI said he made many round trips (40 kms each way) every day plus other trips.
His taxi was a little more than a year old,but already had over 180000kms and he said the car had been perfect. I saw no smoke from this one and numerous other MB CDI taxes as well as
Skoda Octavias (VW owned TDI brand).
Thats what u get when u combine good diesel fuel
with modern diesel engines. But I dont think
some of the hybrid crowd will ever get away from
"this diesel bus in Houston" mentality so why bother

per day

180000Km is about 112,000 miles.
That sure is alot of miles in one year, and his taxi should last much longer than that.

A guy I worked with back in the 90's had an old Corolla with over 400K miles.
I think it needed to be retired.

Relative to diesel fuel B100 has:
50% less smog forming potential
100% less sulfates (acid rain)
55% less PM
5% more NOx
78% less lifetime C02
70% less Greenhouse gasses
55% less VOCs
45% less CO
HC, PAH, nPAH substantially less than petrodiesel.

Compare gasoline to diesel fuel:
70% less PM
55% less NOx
29% more lifetime C02
35% more greenhouse gasses
170% more VOCs
415% more CO

Compare gasoline to biodiesel fuel:
Equivalent (0%) sulfates
15% less PM
60% less NOx
107% more lifetime CO2
105% more Greenhouse Gasses
225% more VOCs
460% more CO

All hail the TDI. Volkswagen should be commended for producing such fuel-efficient diesel engines in the face of constantly changing regulations:

"VOLKSWAGEN’S FUEL-EFFICIENT TDI DIESELS PROVIDE RELIEF FROM SUMMER’S ESCALATING FUEL PRICES
EPA, Department of Energy recognize New Beetle, Golf and Jetta as fuel economy leader

AUBURN HILLS, Mich. – Travel season is quickly approaching – a time when millions of people will take to their cars for the annual family vacation and trips to the beach. This summer, however, recent spikes in fuel prices have many people canceling their plans and keeping the car in the garage. Volkswagen, the leading manufacturer of diesel passenger cars in the United States offers much-needed relief for those planning to hit the open road, by offering up to a 35 percent increase in fuel efficiency – a fact recently recognized by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE).

Diesel versions of the New Beetle and Golf are the highest fuel economy models in their respective vehicle classes, according to the EPA and DOE’s 2006 Fuel Economy Guide. Additionally, the Volkswagen New Beetle, Golf and Jetta hold four of the top ten positions for best fuel economy, according to the EPA.

In the 2006 Fuel Economy Guide, the New Beetle TDI leads the subcompact car class for both manual and automatic transmission, with 37/44 (city/highway) mpg for the manual and 35/42 mpg for the automatic. The Golf TDI leads the compact car class for manual transmission, with 37/44 mpg.

Volkswagen has reported TDI diesel sales of more than 22 percent of total sales for April year-to-date. During the month of April, Volkswagen witnessed a correlation between rising fuel prices and diesel sales, with diesel sales accounting for more than 40 percent of New Beetles sold and 38 percent of Jettas for the month. Volkswagen diesels have also been approved for use of B5 biodiesel fuel."

Whats available in the "other world"

http://www.dieselforum.org/where-is-diesel/cars-trucks-suvs/diesels-for-sale-internationally/

MOS - couldn't disagree with you more. Diesels are NOT responsible for 750% more "nitrous oxide" emissions (nitrous oxide - N2O - is NOT the same as NOx - oxides of nitrogen). N2O is a greenhouse gas (mainly because of their long atmospheric lifetime) but NOx is NOT. It's my understanding that gasoline engine vehicles emit N2O when cold started because their cat converters aren't hot enough to completely reduce the NO to N2 and O2, thus some of it is only partially converted - to N2O. So, if anything, gas engines are responsible for MORE greenhouse N2O emissions.

Virtually all of the NOx emitted from diesel engines is in the form of NO (nitric oxide). NO DEPLETES ozone (smog). The weekend effect studies that I have mentioned in previous posts show that reducing NOx relatively more than VOCs and CO will likely not improve air quality (smog) and may actually make it worse.

Here's another:

"EPA Rule Is Making Ozone Smog Worse

The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), which is forcing Americans to spend billions of dollars per year to address ozone air quality, is actually making the situation worse...."

http://www.greendieseltechnology.com/News.asp?ID=375&link=

Furthermore, "tailpipe" emissions don't take into account evaporative emissions of highly volatile gasoline. These VOC emissions decompose into secondary organic aerosols (fine PM) and formaldehyde formation. Diesel fuel of course has very low volatility (and biodiesel even lower). So you have to take that into account when evaluating the environmental impact of a particular vehicle.

Link:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/1605/ggccebro/chapter1.html

Note the pie chart. Carbon dioxide accounts for 82% of greenhouse gas emissions; nitrogen oxides account for 5%.

What's better for global warming: a 99% reduction in NOx, or a 30% reduction in CO2? I'll do the math for you. Based on that pie chart, a 30% reduction in CO2 (typical with a diesel engine) results in a 25% overall reduction in greenhouse gasses.

A 99% reduction in NOx, results in a 7% overall reduction in greenhouse gasses. Even eliminating NOx totally will have nowhere near the impact of a 30% reduction in CO2.

Now I'll grant you that a hybrid can reduce both NOx and CO2, the former more so than a diesel. However the most reliable overall strategy to reduce greenhouse gasses is by reducing CO2 significantly. In Europe, close to 50% of new cars are now diesels (replacing already fairly efficient small-displacement gassers).

In the USA, the only hybrids that really count towards signficantly reducing CO2 are the Prius, Civic and Insight (and maybe soon, the Fit); hybrid SUVs and "performance" hybrids like the Accord will only make a small dent in overall CO2. Efficient hybrids still only represent a tiny fraction of the car market. And as long as the economics of ownership are still questionable, it will likeley remain so.

On the other hand diesels have good ownership economics in their present form, have excellent efficiency, and if 50% of the market were diesel, all things being equal, within maybe 10 years, perhaps faster with incentive programs, overall greenhouse gas emissions would go down by about 15% in N. America. Ideally, a mix of diesels (for long-distance work) and hybrids (for urban work), and abandonment of oversized SUVs, would lead to a massive reduction in CO2.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/sbs.htm

Well here's a link, the green house gases on the prius are much better than the similar sized TDI and civic. I think that in Europe the benifit isn't diesel vs gas I think it's small car vs large and the fact that we drive longer distances. I think gas prices have to get really painful to get Americans to go small, and drive slower. A Ford Explorer gets an epa 15/21 and puts out 10.9 tons of greenhouse gases a year. and a Honda Accord V6 gets 20/29 and puts out 7.9 tons of greenhouse gases. So by my calculation getting Americans to buy Civics instead of Accords gets you a 30% reduction.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/sbs.htm

and buying a wagon instead of an explorer gets a 34% reduction, and a better SUV gets a 20% reduction and the Hybrid SUV gets a 42% reduction in greenhouse gases.

Steve is right. The Hybrid SUVs and other larger hybrids, while not getting particularly exciting fuel economy, do benefit in the arena of air quality quite a bit relative to similar size diesel and gas alternatives

Found some E85 data too, If you must have a pick up truck then the flex fuel is the way to go

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/byclass.htm

10.1 tons vs 12.1 tons emissions or a 17% savings

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/byfueltype.htm

the cars on this list will save you 20% on greenhouse gases

I agree with MOS, it ain't here yet. And god knows if it will fly in the US, but right now for fuel economy and greenhouse gases a gas Civic equals a TDI and the prius kicks both of their butts.

Steve - not if you consider biodiesel.

MOS - don't know how to make it any more clear. VOCs and CO are responsible for urban smog, not NOx, and any gasoline vehicle produces more if you take evaporative emissions into account.

MOS...u dont want to deal with reality. The reality
is that the new diesel is available this fall and
the dieselcars with trap filters benefitting from
this new fuel are already produced, but not sold in
the US because the sulphur is too high until this
the fuel is on the market.
The fuel and the cars are ready, but you dont want
to recognize it.

This thread is about Hybrid or Diesel? My focus is on todays available realities, not potential. Potential is interesting, but often doesnt come to fruition for one reason or another.

Hybrids are available. so are diesel passenger cars to a small degree. Ethanol based dual engines are produced by Ford and GM, but not sold here due to lack of ethanol filling stations and production.

The latest model passenger car diesels dont stack up to the latest model hybrids in fuel economy or emissions profile. That could change, as diesel offerings can improve and the current hybrids are simply an interim technology prior to the next step.

But the choices we have are the choices we have, and do not include an Audi A2. That press release is from feb 2000-- thus my point. Its 2006 now, and still no A2 in the US.

AS far as Hybrid and economics, the folks buying hybrid civics arent deciding between a civic hybrid and a civic DX. They are replacing Volvos, Infinitis, and other cars and moving from high maintenace, high pollution, low fuel efficiency gasoline cars to the hybrid alternative which pays them back very very quickly. The demographics in question have been studied with average annual incomes per buying group detailed.

In the hybrid or diesel debate, I see a lot of emphasis and excitement centered on Hybrids, I dont see any announcements or emphasis in the US market for new and better diesel passenger cars than we already have. Show me a definite diesel car release upcoming in the US with a release date attached that bests 50 miles to the gallon and beats the Prius and Civic on emissions profiling. Show me one. Just one. The calculator on this website will serve as the objective measurement tool.

sel cars, but I believe these are being eclipsed by Hybrid and ethanol technologies based on the growing availability sales of hybrids as well as the dual engines ford and GM make for Brazil.

MOS
May 09, 2006

...above is a quote from MOS...apparently it is ok
when he promotes cars and fuels in other countries
likr Brasil, but when it comes to readely avaiable
diesel cars in other countries he does not think
that is relevant...do I have to say more...wonder
if he ever visited Europe...where did he hear noisy
diesels...if he was in Europe he must have seen
alot of modern diesel and one thing they are not
and that is noisy...

Hyundai and Honda have announced releases of small affordable Hybrid cars for next year. This, inconcert, with the already available models to me constitutes a small army of choices not avialble in diesel cars in the US.

In addition, GM and Mercedes are working on a better hybrid solution. Ford and GM have duel use motors cpable of running on ethanol which in theory could support our own farmers and rural communities instead of terrorism.

Many of the above posts seeming to favor diesel for some odd reason aren't based on anything available currently, or with any certainty in the near future. Links for 6 year old press releases that never happened here ( I have seen the Audi A2 and A3 in europe a gizillion times), fuels with no availability in the US, cars that aren't here and arent scheduled to be here. Toyota stating they wont release a diesel in the US due to lack of longevity of emmision controls.

And no offering of any available diesel that can meet or beat the air emmisions characteristsics and fuel efficiencies of current hybrids, class by class. Diesel has been around a long time, yet still pollute and are noisy. Hybrids have a short track record, are still in development, and are immediately successful.

So for the HYbrid versus diesel question in the US passenger car market, I choose Hybrid; it is the present and seemingly a growing part of the future. Tiem will tell though, thats the cool part. We can all sit back and watch.

Bjorn,

I've sort of been following your 'discussion' with MOS and noted that you suggest that hybrids can't be repaired by normal mechanics.

Actually, that is one of the reasons that good hybrids are so badly resisted by the automotive companies: They don't have to be maintained by mechanics as much.

An optimized hybrid drivetrain (MOS won't be interested since they are not available today, and won't provide instant gratification) will require minimal service. Brakes will likely only be used in emergencies, hence, they should last at least 200,000 miles. The engine use will be very benign hence oil change will be more a function of time than use (maybe every year or so). Coolant will need periodic replacing. I'm guessing that a hybrid can be built with simply an annual maintenance (oil change, lube, and checkup), a 50,000 mile service (replace tires, flush coolant, check up), and a 200,000 mile replacement of the traction battery and brakes. If a car runs for 500,000 miles, it will only see a real mechanic 2 times for the battery and brakes. The regular checkups can be done by any grease monkey at a Jiffy-Lube.

I don't think a Diesel (unless its a hybrid) can offer such simple maintenance.

Of course, a pure Battery Electric will require about the same maintenance as your refrigerator with the possible exception of new tires and lube about every 50,000 miles and new traction battery at about 200,000 miles.

EV,
I've just had my car in for the 65,000 mile oil change. I get free oil changes at the dealer where I bought it.

They report that my brakes are practically like new.
Much of the time I'm letting the regen do my slowing.

wxman:
Your greencar link:
Their Sedan's 35MPG is not an Earth shaking revelation, even a Toyota Camry gets 33MPG and the article even states that the SUV version is comparable with GM's hybird efficiency.

Funny how the diesel crowd try and portray hybrid as overly complicated while they champion a 35MPG sedan which drag all these devices and more:
Oxidizing Catalytic Converter,
DeNOx Catalytic Covnerter,
Particulate Filter
and another Catalytic Converter.
Some "Urea" style injectiors and what else.

Zigmag article:
I don't find it all that impressive for these reasons:
*Why did it require a 26 member team of mechanics to make it do that run?
While replacement of entire assemblies weren't allowed, but other non-factory tweaking was. (Page 3)
*Running on a flat track is vastly different than real-world driving, perhaps that's why they chose that medium.
140MPH isn't realistic. I'd rather see a more realistic 60MPH at 120MPG on a flat track and the Honda Insight Hybrid will surely do that.
*Diesel enthusiasts always tout the hybrid "Premium". The E320CDI around $55,000....
*30 Continuous days on a flat track is far cry from 10 years highway/city actual use.

Car and Driver
http://www.caranddriver.com/shortroadtests/8213/2005-mercedes-benz-e320-cdi.html
Only did around 24MPG with this overly complicated vehicle.

Road and Travel
http://www.roadandtravel.com/roadtests/reviews/2005roadtests/newcarreviews/mercedesbenze320cdi.htm
Only got around 30MPG.

Fuel economy dot gov:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/20908.shtml
30MPG combined.

Thanks for the links wxman.
Everywhere I've seen 700miles to the tank with this car, but only for its over sized extended 21 gallon capacity.
I'm exceeding 800 miles with my Civic Hybrids 13-14 gallon tank.

Although it seems like I'm only trashing this very nice car honestly I don't mean to.
Truly It's a better alternative to a regular gasoline model.
I haven't time at the moment to research its non-diesel model (If there is one), or its competitions model but wonder what is the premium for this overly complicated vehicle?

To EX EV driver...I dont know how u know future
hybrids will be so kow on maintenance. I know
my manual says the TDI need oilchange every
100000 miles. Just put on a new timingbelt(new TDis has a chain) good for 100000 miles.
If u have read one of my earlier input I mentioned
that my brothers oldest MB a 95 C-class diesel
passed 500000kilometers and never had any engine
work done. Its still runs great. Any comments?
Anyhow are u saying that any garage can troubleshoot the motors and electronics on a hybrid?

Steve - did you look at the last link I provided? The E320 CDI achieved a certified 49.9 mpg. I suspect they were driving for maximum fuel economy, but nearly 50 mpg and over 1000 miles on one tank of fuel isn't bad for a car in that class. I was just responding to MOS's challenge.

I hope I'm not coming across as bashing hybrids because that's not my intention. It's just that diesels are better in certain driving situations in my opinion (I live in a rural/small town location). I'd like to see more diesels available in the U.S. than just a $50K Mercedes or a few VW TDI models.

"I'm exceeding 800 miles with my Civic Hybrids 13-14 gallon tank. "

I get about 800 routinely on our Jetta, with about 16 gallons of fuel. I've had as low as 600 on the same amount, on a long road trip with bikes on a roof rack and the wagon area packed to the ceiling (aerodynamics applies to hybrids as well...)

However it has one advantage over your Civic.

It's a station wagon. Which makes it an SUV beater! It has all the capacity and convenience of, say, a Honda CRV-sized SUV, but with double the fuel efficiency. The only thing the SUV has over it is ground clearance, and all-wheel drive (rarely a necessity except for the woods).

So far nobody that I know makes a hybrid station wagon or SUV that comes anywhere near that kind of efficiency. A Passat wagon is even more practical (size-wise), competing with an Escape hybrid or eve larger for practicality, with 40 mpg real-world highway fuel efficiency (something the Escape does not appear able to achieve). But the Passat is of course less efficient than the Jetta on fuel.

According to a Dutch study the enviromental
drawbacks with making a hybrid, batteries, 2 motors, electronics and disposal outweighs any
advantage (there was none to begin with) over the
much simpler to build DI diesel car.
Maintenance for hybrids are also expected to be
very expensive and likely to happen.
The Dutch goverment hired an independant contractor to study
this. FYI

a quote

"Hybrid buyers are often disappointed that they don't get the fuel economy numbers listed on the window sticker in their regular driving. "I just love my Honda Civic Hybrid, but I have been a bit disappointed that the gas mileage isn't better," says Ivey Doyal of Atlanta, Georgia.

Well the point is to discuss diesels vs hybrids. The fact that VW is the only manufacturer making mainstream diesels in N. America (we also get the Smart car in Canada with a 3-cyl diesel), means that we have to suffer VW quality, which has its ups and downs, and their dealer network. To be honest, there HAVE been issues. My 99.5 Jetta TDI certainly did not measure up to the best Japanese cars for reliability. However my 2005 Passat and 2004 Jetta have been flawless and even start easier in the winter than our Accord which I traded in for the 2004 Jetta.

That said, Toyota and Honda also happen to manufacture excellent diesels.

It's too bad we can't have them as well. Diesels, efficient conventional gasoline cars with low emissions, and hybrids would offer a well-rounded product line. Diesels would appeal to high-milers who do mainly highway, straight gassers with low emissions to people who don't drive enough mileage to justify the extra expense of a diesel or hybrid and still want low emissions, and hybrids for those with heavy urban driving in their mix.

Choice and competition would be the winning ticket for consumers.

another quote, but not a game

Several bills floating around Congress, for instance, have proposed tax incentives to buyers of hybrid cars, irrespective of their gas mileage. Thus, under one failed but sure to resurface formulation, the suburbanite who buys a hypothetical hybrid Dodge Durango that gets 14 miles per gallon instead of 12 thanks to its second, electric power source would be entitled to a huge tax incentive, while the buyer of a conventional, gasoline-powered Honda Civic that delivers 40 miles per gallon on the open road gets none.

Above quote is from this link..sobering for the hybrid crowd

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/16/opinion/16kitman.html?ex=1302840000&en=eb4aa18b1c661d61&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss&pagewanted=all

LOL...everything Kitman said is true and the
hybrid crowd cant handle the truth. They depend
on everyone else to make an incentive to
make is look good to buy one..subsidy, special
parking , using car pool lanes. If hybrid is so
great why cant they make it on their own.
Diesels have to. As a matter of facts many states
add extra tax on diesel. Maybe it is used to
to make up for lost income tax from hybrid owners?

Just took a close up look at a Tahoe hybrid 2-Mode.
Sat behind the wheel, but no driving.
Some of tou readers might have seen it at a carshow already, but it is a first time for me.
Nice looking car. Almost converting me to a
hybrid fan..lol. This one is on its way to Dubai,
United Arab Emirates.
My job bring me in contact with a lot of prototypes and exhibition cars coming in ang going out of USA.
I also get to talk to their reps travelling all over
the world on test teams.
http://www.leftlanenews.com/2006/01/08/detroit-2006-chevy-unveils-two-mode-hybrid-tahoe/

I looked at that mileage database for the smartcars. It looked like about 44 MPG on average. Is my math off?

probably a lot less pollution though.

Its entering the US via grey market and through more formal channels in 2007.

In general, pollution knows no boundaries.

Lets face it, with terrorism/oil producing middle east nations, and the degradation of our environment.

Being Green via the Hybrid is the new red white and blue.

Greg- thanks for the specific info- I had read they were minimally available through non major dealers--but were poised to formally enter the US market next year.

No doubt the hybrids are a shade of green.
No car is completely green as long it emit some
pollution. The problem on our world today is
CO2 gases and diesels are the quickest and
cheapest way to lower greenhouse gases until
we find a permanent solution. The prototype
of the 2-stage hybrid Tahoe getting ready for
shipment behind me in the warehouse will cost
$20000 more over the regular Tahoe. Maybe it has
more equipment, but even a diehard hybrid fan
must agree that is too much. Probably a great
choice for a rich person who get privilige HOV
lane and a tax deduction.

4.21L/100km average (from the spritmonitor query, above) is 55 MPG (USA) and 66 MPG (Imperial). There are a few in Canada routinely getting 3.21L/100km (73 MPG USA and 88 MPG Imperial), thanks to their particular favourable driving conditions. At http://100mpg.ca , "smartzuuk" had a stretch across the prairies that yielded him 113 MPG Imperial.

I'm not denouncing hybrid technologies; I just want to point out that diesel is underestimated -- sometimes even disparaged by the articles on hybridcars.com -- and that there are more ways to be conscientious about energy efficiency than locking off on a single solution and a single form-factor.

Useful info

http://gasoline.direct.injection.engine.en.infofx.info/

Wake up MOS. The diesel solution is out there.
You just dont want to see it. Keep on clinging
to the idea that since we dont have it in the USA
it does not count. But hydrogen cars seem to be
ok to consider even before we have them for sale
or have a network of filling stations. Would like
you to explain why readely available diesel
cars cannot be considered but hydrogen cars can??
Yes farmers can produce some of our fuel..
..BIODIESEL... Look up Willie Nelson Biodiesel.
Enjoy your hybrid with old fashioned gasoline engine.

Well there is excitement over many new technologies. Actually, its diesel that is the old technology. Diesels have inate emissions problems and even in their best circumstance have problems meeting emissions standards in the US. European cities are just filled with diesel pollution in many instances. Toyota has great diesel engines but hsnt introduced them in the US becuase they know their engines will outlive their emissions systems.

Hybrids, ethanol based cars, hydrogen fuel cells, dual hybrid designs-- all being emphasizied. And more diesels will be sold too.

The goal is increasing fuel efficiency, cleaning up the air, and not providing money to terrorist middle east nations. Hybrids, as well as other technologies---but not diesel for now-- provide solutions here in the US at this time.

MOS wrote: "Hopefully it all works, but all of those extra emission control pieces look like a possibl;e maintenance issue."

There is no shortage of emission control equipment on gasoline engines. ULEV doesn't just happen...ask anyone who's had to replace dud oxygen sensors on their gas automobiles.

http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/application.jsp?nodeId=0162468rH3bTdG1729lrNDMt6y

Aaron- thanks for your question; There is relatively limited availability of certain hybrids relative to diesel offerings and that may explain your observation.

Hybrids are a fairly new technology and some models are working well as far as sales and some are not. The modles that get the highest fuel efficiency sell quickly, and the luxury segment sells well as well ( Like the Lexus SUV hybrid). All qualify for tax credits, not available for any diesels, becuase of the hybrid air emissions profiles, which show much less pollution for hybrids than diesel vehicles sold in the US.

There have been advances in diesel emissions control issues as well as fuel and engines but these are untested in the US market. Other alternatives not part of your question including ethanol as well as hydrogen fuel cells look promising as well.

In anycase, keep your eye on the ball as far as fuel efficiency and emissions and you will make a good choice in the end.

Bad news for the anti diesel lobby

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/05/delphis_onboard.html

Its amazing that the hybrid supporters take it
for granted that others have to support them in
regard to the subsidy they receive in tax credits.
free parking, use of HOV lane even while using
a gas guzzling SUV.
Its like being on welfare and take food stamps for granted. None of them ever adress the fact that
the government subsidies their product.
Very anti american indeed. Market forces?

What is an anti diesel lobby? Never heard of that.

How much money will Europe send to Iran when
50 % (and over 70%) of car sales are frugal diesels
and not SUV hybrids. Hybrid and diesel sales
combined is probably less than 10% in the US.
The fact is that we consume 25% of the world production (twice the per capita in europe).
MOS check the facts before you make a statement.
Maybe you meant the red,white and blue as
in the french flag,union jack, dutch or norwegian flag?

hehe. You are right.

As you know MOS I did not critizise the goverment
for trying to improve air quality. I never wrote that
and therefore u are lying. I do thing clean diesels
and diesel fuels is the best way to go. It seem lik
you like to supress freedom of speech and that is
very anti american. It is also very anti american
to expect your hybrid toy to be supported by the
government when clean diesel cars can do it on
their own. I dont think you ever been in Europe or
any place else overseas.
I have been to London a few times and the air
does not seem to be worse than New York.
You keep on "forgetting" we are talking about
new technology and od course despite a few
ultra clean diesels (and hybrids) in London or
other places the majority of diesels out there
are the polluting ones. Is it so hard for u to
understand this?
Pollution in cities are also heavely influenced by
weather and wind. Some cities has condition that
locks in pollution and even a little pollution can
cause big problems. If you want to use common
sense and be patriotic at the same time get
yourself a diesel so you are ready for the ultra
low sulphur diesel and you can be proud of
not taking government handouts.

By the way, there is nothing Patriotic about purchasing a diesel car. What a laugh!!!

Mos you will never get it!!! In those cities you
mentioned most of the diesel cars you see are
not clean and neither are the gasoline cars.
As a matter of fact our cars are not either.
Car registered as trucks (Suvs, MPV) has less
pollution control.
You must have missed the point of the whole
discussion. We are comparing the newest diesel
techonolgy with the newest hybrids.
In other words current TDIs would not qualify, but
diesels with particle filters would be and you can
be sure there are not many of them in Lisbon or
the other cities you found on the map.
So you are making "assumptions" that I am against
clean air based on that YOU dont agree with me
that clean diesels will do the job. Well who are
you to make that judgement?

If MOS is so concerned about diesels creating pollution why doesnt he lobby against all these truck registered vehicles we have. They have less pollution equipment than the passenger cars.
And what kind of diesel cars is he talking about in his last statement. Old diesel cars or the newest
technology. He does not want to show his true colors. Who is he to say that driving a TDI is not
patriotic when it cuts consumptions with 60% plus?
And that is at a premium purchase cost at $1000
versus $3000 and up which ends up for the most
part in Japan.
Colors? Are u talking about the red,white and blue
as in the french tricolor?

What a pissing contest.

Ford had this solved 20 years ago with an Escort FS.. FS meaning "Fuel Saving". I think it was a 1.8l diesel.. which acheived a Motor-Trend tested 55+ MPG.

Imagine what that could do in todays cars. That 1.8, in gas mode, is still in use in baseline Ford Focuses and ZX2s I believe.

Hybrid? I drive a hybrid too. A VW Jetta TDI

Most car owners and even auto columnists are not
aware there is an gasoline engine that save 20%
on the mpg and that is close to what many hybrids
improve the mileage. It need sulpurfree gasoline to
achieve that saving and that gasoline is available
at all gas stations starting Aug/Sep this year.
VW and Audi use the system in their new 2.0T
engines. According to a VW salesman the owner
who buy the car before the new gasoline is on the
market need to reprogram the ECU after September and that is an easy job.
BMW and MB sells these cars.
These make hybrids even less cost effective.

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/09/bmw_to_deploy_d.html

Bjorn what are you talking about? The greenhouse gas emissions for the Passat 2.0T are 6.9 tons/year worse than my Highlander hybrid, and the low sulpher gas will help everyone.

I understood the technology roughly but it's milage (23/32) is roughly that of a Camry 4 cyl (24/33) or an Accord 4 cyl (26/34) and it's greenhouse gases are 6.9T/yr vs 6.7 and 6.4. It will give you 200 horses for that if you want the performance. The new Camry hybrid will give you 190 horses with 40/38 and 4.8T/yr. If you want to bring in a diesel the 2005 Passat TDI will get you 27/38 with 6.9T/yr. The #'s are from http://www.fueleconomy.gov/, and the emissions reflect "full fuel-cycle estimates" and take in to account finding, refining, distributing and use of the fuel.
So if its about a fun gar reasonable milage the new Passat is a nice choice, if it's about getting maximum milage/best greenhouse gas emissions then there are better choices. Hybrids being the best, currently at a slightly premium price, and TDI's being a second choice in those area's that you can buy one especially if you can get biodiesel. I live in one of the 10 states in the US that do not allow diesels that can't meet California emissions standards

The refernce to greenhousegases for the Passat
TDI of 6.9tons a year is probably based on the
high sulphur gas. Once the sulphur gas comes
on market in a couple of months that will be reduced. Passat should be compared to the Camry
as far as mpg goes. If the Camry comes with
a direct injected engine (it probably does, but not
in the US) it will also significantly improve mpg too.
The Jetta with DI 200hp engine is rated at a better
mpg than the indirect 150hp engine.

above should read "Passat should NOT"

I had already heard VW planned to drop diesels
in the US, but I am delighted to see they plan to
be back in 2008 and then with the proper
pollution equipment. Wonder if this coincide with
the much stricter Euro standards for diesel?
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com/06/en/w/schedule.htm
Guess it is time to stock up on TDI's since I am not
willing to but a MB CDI for commuting to work.
Last week I changed timing belt and cleaned
intake manifold on my TDI and could right away
feel the car is running better. With the new diesel
fuel coming on market soon I should not have to clean manifold every 50-60000 miles.
As far as polution goes I read that European Union
is more worried about CO2 than the US and thats
one reason they like to see more diesels on the road.
A barrel of crude produce a certain quantity of
diesel and gasoline and it will probably be good
to have both gas and diesel cars on the road to
ensure there is a market for both.
Good to see Hot-Georgia is back.

TDI vs. gasoline - The TDi emissions levels are among the lowest ever for Diesel powered engines. All TDi powered Volkswagens sold in the US meet so-called "Tier 1" emission limits. The TDi is often "cleaner" overall than gasoline powered cars. CO2 emissions are 25% less than a conventional gasoline powered engine. CO, HC and NOx emissions are less than previous Volkswagen Diesels. Diesel fuel has lower evaporative emissions than gasoline. Diesel fuel also requires less energy intensive refining than gasoline.

Diesel engines generally emit higher amounts of NOx and particles than equivalent gasoline powered cars, even though CO and HC emissions may be lower, and total emissions are lower due to much better fuel consumption. The current TDI Volkswagens typically emit slightly somewhat lower than the Tier 1 limits for NOx and particles (around 0.052 g/mi of particulate matter [PM] and 0.82 g/mi of NOx per EPA data), but the CO and HC emissions are far below the Tier 1 limits and well below the emissions of the equivalent gasoline engine.

Furthermore, most of the unregulated toxic gaseous emissions tend to be lower for diesel engines. For example, benzene (which is a known carcinogen) is lower in diesels by nearly an order of magnitude (i.e., factor of ten) than an equivalent gasoline engine. Diesels also tend to be significantly lower in emissions of alkenes (e.g., ethene), carbonyls (e.g., formaldehyde), and semivolatiles like polyaromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs, many of which are known or suspected carcinogens).

PM has always been regulated by mass (e.g., grams per mile). However, very recent studies show that particle number may be the more important aspect of PM emissions. According to a "real world vehicle testing report" by University of Minnesota renowned combustion particle scientists, new data show that PM number emissions from modern gasoline cars may equal or exceed diesel PM levels. It goes on to discuss gasoline PM emissions and that fact that gasoline engines may need a particulate filter much like that of a diesel. The University of Minnesota study showed that newer and older gasoline vehicles matched or exceeded diesel PM number emissions at high speed/load . It appears that diesel engines equipped with diesel particulate filters (DPFs), as many are now in Europe, will have a significant advantage in PM emissions over gasoline engines. Other recent studies are suggesting that gasoline PM is generally more toxic that diesel PM.

The emission levels from diesel engines tend to remain more-or-less constant throughout the useful life of the engine, whereas gasoline engines have many more emission-related components which deteriorate and lead to higher and higher emissions as the engine gets older

The current US TDI is extremely clean compared to old diesels and will get better with clean diesel.
In my link above EU standard will soon be 10ppm
and as we know in the US we will soon have 50ppm. In the link Hot_Georgia we can read that
VW plan to come back with the TDI in 2008 using
a particle filter.
Mechanically VW engines are way ahead of japanese engines. They dont wear, burn oil or
leaks at the cylinder head. With proper preventive
maintenance of course. Japanese car engine have more of those problems. VW had its share of
electrical problems and power windows breaking so
overall the japanese cars are probably better.
Wonder how you have reliabilty data on Honda
diesel engine that is still not sold in the US?

Great write up Mike G.
One of the contributors here has only one more
year to ROTLMAO....LOL

Right now Mercedes, VW and the Jeep Liberty SUV are the only diesels available (other than large pick-up trucks) in N. America.

Of those only the Jeep and VWs are "affordable" for the average N. American.

Hopefully a market breakthrough will allow other mfgs to bring in diesels as well and we'll have a choice like Europe where VW, Ford, Toyota, GM, Honda and others all offer diesels. Then we won't be stuck with VW and their spotty dealer network.

That said I've owned 3 VW diesels. A 99.5 Jetta TDI, a 2004 Jetta Wagon TDI and a 2005 Passat. The 99.5 was the first year in that body style and had many problems, but none related specifically to the diesel engine. The 2004 and 2005 have been 100% reliable in a total of about 180,000 km of driving (90,000 each). With any car maker it's best to avoid the first year of a new model, but perhaps with VW it's even more prudent to do so.

I guess I'm just lucky as I have two reliable VWs and a dealership with a great service department that understands diesels (after all they make up 40% of their sales).

You know Bjorn this isn't some sort of hybrid vs diesel contest. I think it's odd that you take delight in problems with hybrids or root for diesels. As I've said before I currently own a hybrid, and I would consider a diesel. I think the more options we as consumers have for greener technology that leaves us less relient on oil the better. Gas/electric hybrids, ethanol and clean diesels can all be useful for this purpose, as well as better mass transit, smaller cars and walking/bicycling where appropriate.

Steve...sure I took delight in problems with hybrid,
but maybe the reason why is because some writers took delight with the emmision problems with some diesels and I did not see you make a mention of that.
A barrel of oil makes a
certain amount of gasoline and diesel. I read in the
online Financiel Times that they predict a diesel
shortage and gasoline surplus in Europe due to
the popularity of diesels. After Katrina surplus
gasoline was shipped to the US.
The conclusion seem to be that there is a need
for both clean diesel and hybrid cars.
Diesels has to be cleaner and hybrids cheaper.

"How many diesel station do one need when the
tank is enough for 600 miles plus?"

Personally I'd be embarassed to boast 600 miles to the tank in a fuel economy car.
Here's a trip to work earlier this week:
http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/500/70.jpg
And the return trip:
http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/504/73.jpg

Last May 20 I filled up with 14.5 gallons and drove
http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/504/840.jpg
Yep, that's 840 miles to the tank.
I drive 100 miles/day and fill up once every 11-12 days.
The Jetta has what, 16 or 21 gallon tank? 600 miles?

I've already crossed 840 miles on this tank and will likely fill close to 900 miles, but still not my personal record.

This is not normal or average by any means for a stock Civic Hybrid but does show some of its potential with a trained driver.

Even with this 800-900 mile range I have the comfort to know that every single station sells the fuel I need, that I don't have to remember which ones sell it. No scanning over a station to find if they have that diesel fuel sign.

Bjorn I notice you often make a wild, off the wall parting shot for a last-liner. Here's mine-
Hybrids don't have a problematic turbo like TDI's.