Gas Engine not shutting down after 30 mins of driving
Created August 10, 2009, at 2:58 pm by bliu_bnl
Hi,
I am having a problem with my 2005 Ford HEV. The gas engine isn't shutting down and my MPGs drop like a stone to about 22mpg.
It seems to happen if I don't warm up the engine well or after 30 mins of driving.
I found a post with a similar story and thought I'd share it with everyone because it sounds like a problem that may happen often after approx. 50,000 miles.
It is probable that my "Electric Coolant Pump" or my "blend door acutator" has failed.
The Hybrid batteries are meant to be maintained at a specific temperature or they will overheat. The 'Electric Coolant Pump' is meant to keep the batteries at this temperature. The 'blend door actuator' controls a door that helps vent heat from the batteries to the outside air.
I'm not sure how I'll have these fixed since I've had a TON of problems getting my Ford dealer to even get a hybrid tech to LOOK at my car and because they won't provide a loaner or pay for a rental.
Here's a link to the posting that I found:
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If the blend door was the problem you would get a trouble light. The electronics coolant pump does not give a trouble light nor does it cool the battery. The problem may be the eCVT motors are not getting cooled because of the coolant pump not working and therefore you may not be even getting assist from those electric motors when they get hot. If this is the case you will also see a reduction in acceleration torque. When the electric motors get hot, you can't go EV because of a fail safe system to prevent them from getting any hotter by them running. My guess is that the pump is bad or its relay is bad.
Hi Gary,
Thanks for the info. It is definately an overheat. The car is sluggish on the freeways. Pushing 65 seems to be like hitting some kind of wall.
I noticed that if I turned on my vent, I was able to get a little more power out of the car. Maybe because the AUX coolant pump that you mentioned in an earlier post is kicking in?
I also noticed that when I was able to get into EV mode, the radiator fans were running which they never used to do before.
This morning was cooler and I had a lot more power and dropped into EV mode a lot more often. I also noticed that a connection on the coolant pump seemed a bit loose so I reconnected it, but it's not a good test since today is much cooler than the previous few days (74 instead of like 80+).
How would I know if I'm getting electric assist or not? My Nav computer always displays the electric assist arrow, but my analog meter's (probably not analog) needle is always in the middle except for EV only mode.
The car definately feels sluggish when the ICE is on and the weather is not cool like today, however.
Also, I did have an engine overheat warning, so I had the thermostat replaced. I read in one of your previous posts that an overheat code might still be in the computer if not properly cleared. How would a mechanic (non-Ford technician) reset this code and could this be the cause and not the coolant pump?
Thanks!
The Charge/Assist gauge should swing to the left while the small motor/generator (MG1) is charging with the engine or the traction motor/generator (MG2) is charging with regenerative braking. You should see the needle swing to the right of center when accelerating hard and the electric motors are assisting the engine for more torque. It does not take a great deal of acceleration for the electric motors to assist the gas engine. If your not seeing a big swing to the right for assist during hard acceleration, you've got problems. From what you describe with weather related issues, the electric motors are getting to hot and I'd say the pump is the problem. I've talked to a dealership hybrid Tech that said he tried to just fix the connection before but ended up changing the pump later.
I had the same problem getting over 70mph in my '05 FEH and I changed the pump relay and it got better. Florida switch to E10 about the same time and it could have been the engine was still adjusting also.
If your mechanic read an engine overheat code on his scan tool, he was able to reset it with that scan tool. If the code cleared on its own after a restart, that's okay also. That should have nothing to do with the electric motor assist or EV mode problem.
The aux heater pump is connected to engine coolant system and is completely separate from the electronics cooling system. The only time the aux heater pump is running is when you are in EV because the mechanical water pump stops working when the engine is off. The purpose of the aux heater pump is to provide heated engine coolant to the heater core while in EV only.
When and if my electronics coolant pump goes bad in my '05 FEH, I will replace it myself. I'm lucky because I know the local dealer Parts Manager and I get a break on parts and I have all the tools to do the work. Any good local mechanic could do the same job for the right price also.
My 08 just lost it's second motor coolant pump. I have 96,000 miles on it. My dealer charge to replace it was $ 700.00. Mine just stops and says pull over now. Where is this pump located on the 08. I think I could change it myself.
Ed
Hi Ed
The $700 seems to be about $200 higher than others have been charged. Also, if you got the "Stop Safely Now" warning you may have damages besides the pump. With 96,000 miles on your hybrid battery, eCVT and converter, those should still be under warranty so it may be a good idea to take it to the dealer for a diagnosis. If the hybrid components have failed or are about to fail you need to get them replaced now under warranty.
If it is the pump, the dealer can confirm it so you can change it yourself. It's located just near the bottom of the radiator on the passenger side. The smaller heater pump is located on the drive's side of the bottom of the radiator.
Hi Gary,
Thanks for the information.
I did find out that Ken Grody Ford in Buena Park has two full-time hybrid technicians. Thank God!
But, can you tell me what parts and tools are needed to replace the Electric Coolant Pump and what the procedure would be?
I'd like for my own trusted mechanic to do it if possible. I was also quoted a price of approx. $700 for the electric coolant pump + Labor. I'm guessing that will be the dealer's price as well.
Gary, When I change the MECP, Whats the correct procedure for filling with coolant? Apparently, you lose fluid when you disconnect hoses. By the way, my scangauge shows MeC temp around 100 degrees here in redding when it's 100 degrees ambient. I found the pump and want to change the coolant with 97,000 miles on it.
Okay Guys
I've never changed the MECP myself but according to the manual it seems straight forward. I first suggest you replace a $12 relay in the Battery Junction Box (BJB) located on the top driver side in the engine compartment. This is relay 5 in my '05 FEH and you can look at my photos on page 2 on Cleanmpg.com:
http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/showphoto.php/photo/5062/cat/500/ppuser/3...
You can turn the KEY ON to check if the pump is running without starting the vehicle.
1. Drain the Motorcraft Premium Gold coolant:
A. Place vehicle on a hoist in drive.
B. Turn ignition OFF.
C. Remove LH splash shield (6 bolts) to the transaxle.
D. Place suitable container below the transaxle.
E. Looosen hose clamps at the transaxle and pull hoses off to drain coolant.
2. Motor Electronics Pump.
A. Disconnect the inlet and outlet hoses.
B. Disconnect the harness connector.
C. Remove 2 bolts holding the pump.
D. To install new pump, reverse and tighten bolts to 15 lb-ft
3. Fill with 50/50 fluid and distilled water.
A. Connect hoses to transaxle.
B. Loosen the bleed screw and fill the degas bottle with coolant mixture untill it flows out the bleed hole. Then close bleed screw.
C. Turn the ignition ON to actuate the MECP and continue to fill the degas bottle to the marked level.
Note: Most air bleeding occurs at the degas bottle vent tube and very little at the bleed screw.
As you can see there is not $700 worth of work!
Gary,
Thanks for the info. Looking at my invoice, Pump = $ 294.02, Coolant = $ 22.21, Labor = $ 316.23 and tax = $ 22.93 for Total of $ 711.65. After looking at my vehicle, the pump is very easy to access. One question. After I get a DTC for pump and change it myself, will DTC reset after awhile? My scanguage does not read this DTC and shows "no codes found".
Thanks again for the info.
Ed
It is my understanding the ME pump motor itself does not cause a DTC so replacing it may not clear any codes. There are 2 fuses #2 (10A) and #10 (30A) in the BJB you need to check. You can retrieve hybrid PCM DTC's and clear them with a scangauge but the only person I know who can tell you how is CarlD. If you look on http://www.cleanmpg.com/ in the FEH section you might find how to program your SGII. Take a look at this post by Carl and ask away. http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21291
Hey Gary,
I just took my Ford HEV to Ken Grody Ford. For those of you in So Cal, Ken Grody Ford has two full-time hybrid technicians. SCORE!
First they suggested that my problems might be corrosion on my battery terminal (car battery not Hybrid batteries). They charged me a $170 hybrid diagnostic fee. Later they called me and said that the electric coolant pump (surprise surprise) had failed and that the DC converter was heating up and shutting down the EV systems.
Score one more for GaryG.
Total cost that they quoted me was approx. $560.
Bummer. I got my car back and everything worked great for a bout 30 mins. Then the problem started again. The ICE just would not shut down.
The car has more power, however, but I think there's still something overheating and preventing the ICE from shutting down.
Besides the relay causing the problem are you using "L" gear and is it hot where your driving when this happens? If your overheating the hybrid system using "L" this happens to me all the time when using "L" for heavy EV use. When this happens and I can't use "L" to go EV, I shift to "N" and tap the brake pedal 2 times lightly. Other than that, the wiring harness or harness pump connection could be bad. When you get overheating stop and check to see if the MECP is working by seeing if it's running with the key ON engine Off like I described how to refill the coolant in this tread.
Hey Gary,
The car performs a LOT better than before, but I don't know what's up. When I drove it the first day, there was a trip where the car would not go into EV only mode, but it's been running fine lately.
The car has more power than before, but on my commutes to work (approx. 30-40 mins by freeway at 60-65mph), it seems to do ok for the first half and then have minor problems for the second half. The car will be fine and then go sluggish for a split second then resume again.
Towards the end of the commute I noticed that the car seems to be ok and then the RPMs will start creeping up to 2000 and then stay that way.
If I let go of the gas and then start again, the engine seems to get unstuck, perform ok for a while and then start the cycle again.
I'm suspecting the relay is bad or that the CVT isn't switching ratios properly. Another thought is that the pump they gave me is defective somehow, but not completely non-operational.
I'll drive it a day or two more and then take it back to them.
I'm not sure I understand how to tell if the MECP is working properly. I turn the key to ON (don't start the car) and then look for what kind of signs?
Oh and I'm not using 'L'.
Hey Everyone,
The Ford dealer just called and said that the cooling fan inside my Hybrid battery box was faulty. They have to order the part and then see if that fixes my problems.
Let's hope that does the trick!
I almost forgot, at approx. 83000 miles and just under 5 years, the battery box fan is covered by my warranty. *WHEW*
Reading those comments you are talking about 2 different coolant pumps.
The electrical system has one, and on my '05 it is located on the bottom of the radiator and is quite large.
The the engine has a coolant pump to let you have heat when it is in EVC mode. It is half the size and located on drivers side of the radiator down low.
I do not get heat when in EVC mode, however I hear both pumps running. Wondering it the engine's electric pumps impeler went bad.
I can find the electronics water pump on their part listing but not the engine pump. I guess I'll have to swing in to a dealer to find out.
If you are not getting heat while in EV and the electric heater pump is running, I would suspect the blend door in the duct work not opening to the proper position.
There is a belt driven coolant pump on your '05 FEH with part #8501 according to the '05 workshop manual in section 303-03B-21. Of course coolant stops flowing through the heater core when the engine is off and the electric heater pump runs to circulate coolant to the heater core when in EV. If your getting cabin heat when the engine is running and not when in EV, it could be the pump, blockage or by-pass valve causing the problem. Also, the electric heater pump will not run when the climate control switch is in the Off position.
Gary,
Our '07 stopped last Friday, and Downtown Ford here in Sacramento, CA is telling us it is the "hybrid coolant pump" and gave me part #8C419. They are also saying it IS NOT covered by the hybrid powertrain warranty. A call to Ford's customer service line got me the same answer. The dealer is telling me $900 (5 hours labor) to repair! This doesn't seem consistant with your description, so am wondering about the answer from the dealer. HELP
If your out of your 3/36,000 warranty it is not covered unless you have an extended warranty. I've heard you can buy OEM Ford parts over the internet much cheaper than the dealers and you can copy my instructions here on how to change it yourself or take it to a repair shop for an estimate. The $900 price is way out of line for a simple job of replacing the pump and coolant. There is not 5 hours of labor to this job!
I finally got my Ford back after approx. 2 weeks (12 days total) in the shop. Most of that time was spent waiting on the battery cooling fan to be shipped from the east coast.
The car is running a lot better, but it's still not perfect. I'm averaging approx. 31.8mpg which is lower than my normal 33-34mpg.
Hopefully I just have to re-learn the car because it seems that all of the gas inputs are slightly different. Cruising at 65mph, for example, seems to be more efficient than my old 60mph and 45mph seems better than my old 40mph.
I do feel, however, that the car has really poor mileage up until 10-15 mins into my normal commute. Then something seems to happen and the mpg's spike up.
at least the car feels like there power is normal.
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