Ethanol and Hybrids -- worse MPG?
Created April 19, 2006, at 1:56 pm by Anonymous
Hi, this isn't quite hybrid related, except that most hybrid buyers expect better MPG, and there may be a problem on the horizon. Once again, I posted this on a private Honda forum, but this concerns all drivers... comments anyone?
Before I got my HCH, I had a 1996 (normal) Civic. I had it for over
10 years. I knew EXACTLY how many miles I could get out of a tank of
gas. And I noticed something very strange. When I went to the few gas
stations in the area that had signs saying they use Ehtanol in the
gas, the gas mileage was horrible. The needle would drop to "E" a lot
faster than before -- perhaps about 15% less miles per tank. I
thought it was my imagination, but no matter what I did or what
factors (air-con, different driving conditions) it remained the same.
And it didn't matter of the "quality" of the gas either... 2 of the 3
ethanol stations were name brand gas (ie, Shell and 76), the other
was an independent. When using non-ehtanol-added gas the mileage
would go back to normal. When using the ethanol-added gas it would
cut about 15% off the MPG. ALWAYS.
So I swore off those stations that added ethanol (or at least put
notices up about it). One could think I was just imaginging it, then
I saw an article in this past Sunday's LA Times that said just that --
that gas with ethanol gets worse gas mileage. So I WASN'T imagining
things.
Of course most stations are now switching over to ehtanol. This
doesn't bode well for people who are interested in getting good MPG.
I won't even go into the politics of ethanol (about how it takes more
energy to produce than it saves, and it's obvious pandering to the
states where the early political caucases are held). I wouldn't have
bought a hybrid if I didn't believe in helping the environment, but
from where I stand, ethanol is a bad mix. You get less MPG with it
added to gas, so you burn more gallons every tank anyway.
But here's what's weird: according to all reports I've read, Calif
switched over from MTBE to ehtanol in 2004 (whereas the rest of the
country is doing it now). Yet how come only some stations put ethanol
stickers up, and it was only those stations where I suffered poor
mileage? Unless there's another additive out there (besides ehtanol
and MTBE that some of the other refineries are using?) For now, I go
to Valero (they don't have many consumer stations, but are one of the
largest refineries in California), where I continued to get top
(normal) MPG from my old Civic before I sold it. Occasionally I will
to go Mobil or Chevron if the prices aren't too high, but I will not
go to the local Shell station (ethanol) or 76 (ethanol) where MPG
went down the drain.
Two last comments: I have no idea how bad the mileage variance will
be on hybrids. This was on my old Civic. Since buying the new 06 HCH,
I've gone almost solely to Valero (a couple times at Mobil and once
to Chevron).. I'm almost curious to see how the MPG drops if I go to
the local ehtanol Shell, except I don't want to waste my money. I
just have a feeling though, that people's MPGs all across the country
will only be getting worse.
It's a shame about MBTE: it really cleaned up the air in So Calif,
and delivered great MPG, but was found leaking into the ground water,
and can cause cancer. There's got to be something else out there.
Larry
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5 years ago
Your the only one other than myself that have experienced the 15% hit. In my FEH, I thought it was because of the Atkinson 5 cycle and the O2 sensors causing a rich mixture.
Most of the time I get good 87 octane here in So FL, but that ethanol screws up the mileage for a while. Adding just a little takes a few tanks to clear up the problems it causes.
5 years ago
I put out some warnings about ethanol last September. My FEH dropped from over 30MPG to about 25MPG on the highway. That was on the low percentage of ethonol, not the 85% stuff. The cost of the ethonol mix was lower than regular unleaded in the north central states but it did not make up for the loss in milage.
5 years ago
It's probably the oxygen sensor. Usually, E10 (10% ethanol) should not cause a nticeable drop in mpg. E85 (85% ethanol) should expect about 15% lower mileage because the specific energy is lower than regular gas.
By the way, even a regular car is only about 10-15% efficient. Anyway, ethanol can be grown here. It's still better than depending on an unstabel middle east for our oil.
THey REALLY need to make some flexible fuel hybrids (those that can run on any cobination of gas or upto 85% ethanol). And we also need to get some more E85 stations in New Jersey!
5 years ago
Well, I don't have a hybrid. I don't even have an asian car. I just happened to find this whilst googling around for information on E10. And this gives me reason for great concern.
I noticed that the BTU of ethanol is lower than that of other mixes. This is marketed as being "good" for your car because it means it is burning cooler. However, is that really a "good" thing? It seems to me that our engines are getting less power our of the same amount of fuel. That means when I put E10 in my Mercedes I will be getting less hp/torque.
You guys may be into saving the environment / your gasoline bill, but I paid a premium for my sport sedan for a reason- to drive the hell out of it! If E10 causes me to lose a drag race to some punk kid in a rustang or a civic with a fartcan (well, it would take a lot more than a fartcan to eat my car) I am going to be very, very, very unhappy.
Is this just my problem because, despite being very well-proportioned, I have a small penis complex and boost my ego by throwing money at performance and luxury cars (and aftermarket mods) so that I can make poorer people feel insignificant? Does this power loss only serve to reduce my massively inflated ego?
No, this is everyone's problem. Ethanol is NOT the solution.
Refuse to use Ethanol-based fuel. There ARE mixes that dont use MtBE or Ethanol. Some states have outlawed the sale of MtBE gasoline but that doesn't mean you're stuck buying Ethanol. However, some states do not require that fuel be labeled at the pump as being E10! Do the research for your area and know what you're buying!
(and remember, my friends in the *domestic* oil industry thank you for your continued patronage!)
5 years ago
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5 years ago
Ethanol can't be all bad for performance. Don't professional drag racers use ethanol/alcohol fuel?
5 years ago
Funny car racers use a lot of nitromethane and a little bit of ethanol. But they don't use hybrid drive trains.
5 years ago
Alcohol is great for drag cars because 100% Methanol/Ethanol has a much higher octane rating than standard gasoline. This means you can increase compression ratios to insane levels (= more HP) and not get knocking. But on a car factory-tuned for 87 Gasoline, the pop that E10 gives only hurts power and economy.
5 years ago
That's funny, because I notice a boost in my efficiency (just a couple MPG) after the switch to summer (ethanol-containing) gas - this is the second year in a row.
There's a good article in the August issue of Discover magazine called "Life After Oil." It talks about ethanol, including the amount of gasoline it takes to grow, harvest, transport, and fermet corn.
Regardless, 10 percent less terror-producing fossil fuels make me feel good. Bring on the plug-in flex-fuel hybrids, and I'm first in line to buy one.
3 years ago
I get on average 42 mpg. I recently filled up the gas tank with E10 at a Shell gas station.
Im only getting 35 mpg. This is the last time i go to that gas station and i will watch out for that blend.
3 years ago
I think there is a significant difference between gasoline that has ethanol to replace the MBTE as a clean-burn additive and a gasoline-ethanol mix. For example, I think gas in CA can have up to 6% ethanol in place of MBTE and that will be sold as "regular gas". However, if you have more than 6% EtOH, the fuel has to state that there is ethanol added (such as "This fuel may contain up to 10% ethanol").
I believe it is the same here in FL. While all gas sold in the state contains some ethanol (in place of MBTE), if it goes over a certain percentage pump labels are required to let drivers know.
My mileage in a '07 Civic Hybrid suffers significantly when filling up with gas from pumps with the "up to 10% Ethanol" sticker, in fact sometimes over 10% decrease in FE. I really do try to avoid them whenever possible!
3 years ago
My experience with E30 in my FEH has been positive. I experience no change in operating behaviors. My mileage is not significantly different (.2 mile loss over 300 miles), it cost me less to fill up and ethanol burns clearner. E10 might be the worst ethanol blend for your mileage and pocketbook.
3 years ago
Excuse my ignorance,
what does that all mean in relation to my pocket$$$$$?
Is ehtanol fuel cheaper?
someone please help me
3 years ago
mijiki,
With the subsidies, ethanol, is probably cheaper per gallon than gasoline, however, it probably isn't much cheaper per mile to drive.
Of course the fact that the government is subsidizing ethanol so farmers are producing corn for ethanol instead of food is costing you more money at the grocery store.
Bottom line: ethanol is a scam that isn't going to help you.
3 years ago
Well, I just got back from a road trip and calculated less than 30 mpg. I've always wondered why my mileage has so bad, been going to BP with their ethanol+gas mixture. Maybe it is time to get out the bicycle . . .
3 years ago
HOW (either online or not) can we find gas stations that don't use ethanol?
3 years ago
I have noticed the same thing here in California. I track every mile in my vehicles since putting in a hydrogen generator- want to know improvements.
I generally get about a 40% increase in my mileage (a Chevy Van with 5.7 liter engine). To get accurate measurements, I ran 4 tanks with it off, then turned it on, ran 4 tanks - the average increase was as shown.
Now, to keep the tests honest, I filled up at the same gas station every time, the local Shell station. It was more convenient being right off the highway.
One week, while running more tests (which I am always doing), I was on the road and realized I needed to fill up- had forgotten to pull into Shell. So I stopped at a different station (forget the name right off hand, but it wasn't Valero). I didn't think anything about it until the next fill up.
When I did fill up again, I had to check and recheck my calculations - I had gone from 10 MPG to 16.5 MPG that week- that's a 65% increase compared to the normal 40%.!
I have since quit using Shell. When I returned to it, the increase dropped back down to what it was before.
Ethanol does not have the energy content for what it takes to produce it and is another political boondoggle foisted on us by dumb public officials and junk science.
3 years ago
Ethanol does cause a lot of trouble when the combustion and the oxygen sufficiency is not adequate leading to a sizable decrease in the mpg of the vehicle.
3 years ago
So what are you using now and how is it working for you?
3 years ago
I use hydrogen (actually HHO which is a combination of hydrogen and oxygen). I get a 40% bump in my mileage with a big 5.7 liter Chevy engine, but with some of the new breakthroughs we're working on now, I should be able to double my mileage.
It's clean (burns emissions and particulates more thoroughly), it lowers temps of engine by about 5 degrees from our research, and uses about a liter of water a week to save 30 gallons of gas a month or more.
Works on everything but the Ford Powerstroke diesel.
3 years ago
I meant the station/gas you switched from Shell over (regarding your message)
"Now, to keep the tests honest, I filled up at the same gas station every time, the local Shell station. It was more convenient being right off the highway.
One week, while running more tests (which I am always doing), I was on the road and realized I needed to fill up- had forgotten to pull into Shell. So I stopped at a different station (forget the name right off hand, but it wasn't Valero). I didn't think anything about it until the next fill up."
I have been using shell, but since you are doing testing I figured if you knew where you have been going since I'd have a new place to try.
Thank you
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