Battery life and price

Found two different general descriptions of the Ford Hybrid battery pack. One says 300 volts, the other 330. The pack consists of 50 sets of 5 small (D-cell size) batteries for a total of 250. They have 1.3 volts each which would make 325 total volts, or there about.
They are enclosed in a metal case. The center of the pack has a switch to disconnect the battery from the rest of the vehicle. Apparently, it can be turned (off & on) and completely removed from the battery pack for added safety (service or emergency).

As Ni-MH battery technology improves, and production increases, they prices should drop pretty dramatically. A D-cell Ni-MH battery should run about $10 today. Within a few years, that should drop to under $3 or $4, or even less.

The batteries and the technology may find their way into stationary power uses like standby for solar, wind generator, etc. Every new use encourages volume commitments and should help lower the cost of production.

From what I've read/learned about my '04 Prius, it's battery pack is NOT the d-cell type, but still NiMH. It's a flat cell design with many cells put together. The pack itself is 202 volts and if anything needs to be replaced, it can be done one cell at a time (just the bad cells, say, if voltage is not staying at 202 V). The entire pack does NOT ever have to be replaced. Classic Prius cars (2001-2003) used as taxis in NYC have done 250,000 miles with NO battery replacement/issues. The Prius keeps the pack between 40% and 80% so no overcharging or complete depletion is possible. Plus the 8-yr, 100,000 mile warranty makes me think Toyota (and Panasonic, the battery mfg.) is proud of the pack and it's control to make it long-lasting. Plus, there is a recycling plan in place to recycle MOST of the battery and Prius parts at end-of-life. This is from the Toyota website. Love my Prius!

So no one actually know the cost of a battery for one of the available hybrids? The cost of a typical Laptop battery smaller than a VCR tape is about $100 including shipping. I read here someones guess is $1000. What is the truth here instead of speculation and rah rah?

And if you're in a green state, it's covered for 10yrs/150Kmiles!

LiIon batteries are fairly new and much like NiMH they were supposed to have no memory (compared to NiCd). That being said that the fancier the battery chemistry the more finicky they get. NiMH in particular is very very sensitive to being trickle charged (it quickly destroys their capacity) and I expect that LiIon is much worse.

I've been dealing with short lived (2 to 3 year) UPS batteries (lead acid) and my only guess is that the UPS's must be overcharging the batteries all of the time because I've worked for big-time UPS companies where a single 2V cell is the size of a small filing cabinet and lasts > 20 years (also lead acid).

Note that nobody selling home energy systems (solar or wind) uses anything but lead-acid batteries! The benefits of LiIon and NiMH is size and weight.

That's why I argue that hybrids should be built with a 5hp IC engine (or whatever is needed at 65 mph) so that the IC engine is optimized for efficiency and minimum emisisons and pretty well run like a "fuelathon" car - you know the ones where they get > 1,000 mpg. Then the electric engine pretty well provides all acceleration and the battery pack cost/size/capacity is minimized.

Any car that has > 50 hp output is not fuel efficient.

The book The end of oil : on the edge of a perilous new world / Paul Roberts explains it best - the past 15 years has been a move towards more powerful cars that get the same or worse milage than previous generations. Before then we built more fuel efficient cars without performance/power taking a back seat.

What we need to do is start building 30 to 50 hp electric cars with a 5hp IC engine to power a small battery pack. Yes we'll have 15 sec 0->60 times but
who gives a damm - at least it'll get better milage (and have lower emissions) than a 1990 vintage Chevy Sprint. Currently we don't have any 4 seaters in production that'll touch my '91 Sprint for milage or emissions. It's disgusting.

Eric,
I've been averaging over 65MPG over my past few tanks and well exceeding +900miles / tank.

Is this not an efficient car?
(HCH CVT)

I pulled this info from 1need2know.org ("5 facts about hybrids) it doesn't answer the question of how long a hybrid can sit but addresses the battery pricing issue
"Hybrid buyers may be saving on gas, but they are sporting a much more expensive battery. The cost of hybrid batteries ranges from $1,000 to $3,000, although we have gotten reports of some hybrid owners being quoted $4,800 to $8,000! This could be due to the current high demand for hybrid cars. And, although the hybrid battery may be covered under the car’s warranty, once the warranty expires, you could find yourself in for more of a ‘charge’ than you expected. "

Battery Life is not a real factor in my Prius due to the warranry and a history of no battery failures. As for the "10-days" parked issue, We have had our Prius sitting unused for two weeks at a time and no problems starting up on returning. The accelleration is fully the same as our Camry and the fuel economy almost exactly TWICE that of the Camry. The hatchback design provides generous storage potential. Sounds as if those talking about "econobox" simply aren't familiar with the size or performance of the Prius and probably feeding on the plethora of misinformation about Hybrids.

Wow. So many concerns and misconceptions about hybrids.

I am a veteran Toyota senior Product Specialist, and can hopefully clear up some of these questions.
The Toyota system is the ONLY full hybrid system on the market. It is used in many Toyota and Lexus products, and has been licensed by Ford, Nissan, etc. for their vehicles.

The batteries are designed to never have to be replaced. This is assuming a normal lifespan of roughly 10-12 years and roughly 200K. If you drive somehow out of the ordinary... i.e. 2000 mi/yr for the next 30 yrs, then yes, you may eventually have to replace some cells. But, as mentioned previously, by the time you had to do so, the price would be 1/20th of today's price, due to volume and technological advances.

And, by the way, being mass produced since 1998, Toyota has NEVER had to replace even one battery due to failure, and many vehicles have over 250K mi. So, I really would not worry about the batteries. And yes the 8yr 100k warranty is longer in green states, such as CA (10yr 150k).

As for performance, a full hybrid system usually enhances acceleration, due to the enormous torque of the electric motor(s). In fact, the Prius, Highlander, etc. require traction control so that the front tires aren't smoked every time you hit the pedal. The new Highlander hybrid has more power than most V8's, with double the city mileage! An explorer V8 4x4, for example, is the same size and gets 15/18. The similar Highlander 4x4 will out-run it, and gets 32/27. How is that for a "slow" hybrid.

The next to come out will be the '07 Camry hybrid, in less than a year. Also in the works are a hybrid Sienna and lots of pick-ups as well.

As for the vehicle sitting for periods of time, there is a hibernate mode that can be activated to preserve the battery pack. As far as I know, most of the drain simply comes from the SmartKey transceivers in the doors and hatch. Not sure why much other drain would take place.

I truly hope this is helpful. Spread the word, as Toyota really wants consumers to understand the ins and outs of this proven technology.

I am looking at a used 2000 Honda Insight and I am a bit hesitant to buy because it has 120,000 miles. So that's one answer for you: it lasts at least 120K. However, my concern is how much longer it may last. Any Insight owners with high mileage or who have replaced batteries? I haven't been able to find anyone yet, which is a good sign. And FYI, the replacement cost for the Insight from the dealership is $3000 including labor.

Battery prices more than likely will NOT decrease instead as the history of NiMH and Lion batteries show the price stays relatively flat and the capacity of the batteries increase. In the future battery packs will become smaller and lighter but the price will more than likely increase at a rate proportional to inflation. Companies that manufacture these cells have to recover the development costs for future technology.

For ANY car company to tell the consumer that the prices will be 1/20th of the current values are flat out misleading the consumers to dispel fears of possible problems with the systems.

Typical NiMH batteries in use seldom last beyond 5 years of normal usage. Charging cycles determine the life of the battery packs. Cycles and the severity of the charging cycles varies but for simplification sake consider one complete discharge and re-charge as a cycle. This for a Hybrid means a 0-top speed acceleration burst which depletes the battery pack. Typical NiMH battery's can only take 500-750 cycles before they need to be replaced. Obviously they battery will not be completely dead but they will suffer from reduced capacity and increased thermal heating from the reduced recovery of the charge.

Consider that most battery packs range anywhere from $4,000-$8,000 to replace. Since the battery packs degrade at a relatively uniform rate due to cycles and time seldom will an owner replace just a single cell.

Hybrids have a major drawback that being the "Otto-Cycle" engine that drives teh vehicle. Otto-cycle engines simply fail in terms of thermal efficiency due to stiochiometric limitations on combustion fuel air ratios.

The true winners in efficiency are Diesel cycle and HCCI which is still being developed. These motors offer the ability to vary fuel air ratios to truely thus do not have to reply on hybrid drive systems to attempt to recover the lost energy. Diesel Hybrids due to the low recovery of energy of current and forcast Hybrid drives do not offer enough benenfit to justify the increase in weight and complexity.

Current diesel technology already offers MPG's in the 105mpg range for current production cars outside the US. I have to emphasize that these ARE NOT HYBRIDS but conventional diesel-cycle engines!

Outside the US large luxury cars like the BMW 745iL, Mercedes S500, Audi A8 V8TDI VW Phaeton V10 are given diesel engines as the top of the line options affording these large cars the ability to routinely get 30+ mpgs without sacrificing performance if anything they suffer from being governed to 155mph due to speed limits imposed on them by local governments.

Diesel also is the only option for using Biofuels such as Rapeseed Biodiesel, algea based biodiesel. These fuels allow the use of Nox catalysts which reduce emissions below that of current clean/green benzine burners aka Otto-Cycle gasoline engines. The advantage with Biofuels is energy density allowing for high output motors which use a completely renewable energy source thus stopping total emissions output.

Hybrids by virtue of emissions from production actually increase the impact on the environment through the damage done by producing the subsystems. I must say that no car is truly green due to production emissions but when the production is shifted to countries that do not regulate industrial emissions such as China then the impact is shifted to another region of the world. As the case is with Hydrogen producing hydrogen increases emissions due to the inefficiency of cracking H2O into its primary components. Hydrogen is the poorest means of storing energy, to clarify Hydrogen is not an energy source but simply a means of storing energy since it does not exist in a pure state without refining.

Thats my $.02 worth

On my current car I have 210,000 miles and still enjoy 53mpg lifetime average...for those looking for an efficient vehicle remember these 3 letters T D I

DB

Live in Phx, Az and am considering a hybrid. One major concern is the affect of our extreme summer air (outside), road and engine compartment temperatures. Heard that NIMH batteries are ok with temperatures up to 140 degrees. Expect that asphalt reflection and engine compartment temperatures on a 122 degree day could easily exceed 140? Anyone know what to expect from batteries after 4/5 years of hot summer driving?

Another concern is with dealers not honoring warranties because older batteries check out as good, even though acceleration performance suffers. Not too hard to see Az. car dealerships using a ploy like that to avoid honoring warranties.

The Toyota is a conventional 4 valve engine with variable cam timing (VVT-i). This is an otto-cycle engine in every sense of the word.

As for internal combustion engines there are 3 cycles from an engineering standpoint:

(1)Otto-Cycle which uses Stiochiometric (or in some cases leaner than) through 4 complete cycles to achieve a power stroke. Hybrids use this because of the inherent inefficiencies of the characteristics of this design due to waste heat energy to control and provent pre-igntion and detonation from excessively lean combustion. One variation of the Otto-cycle is FSI or GDI where no fuel is injected during the intake stroke. The raw air is compressed via the compression stroke and at or near TDC just prior to ignition a shot of highly pressurized fuel is injected and then ignition occurs before the fuel is fully scattered within the cylinder. The central portion of the spray is rich enough to ignite but leans out as the combustion propogates through the cylinder. This process is the only currently viable process for achieving true lean burn characteristics of gasoline/otto-cycle engines. Currently in the US due to fuel quality (high sulfur content 300ppm) FSI/GDI is limited to 20:1 due to sulfur contamination of catalysts for lean burn engines. Once sulfure is reduced fuel ratios can be reduced to as lean as 40:1 without loss of power and upwards of 20-30% increase in economy. However due to the low energy content of gasoline this still falls short of the diesel cycle in terms of overall efficiency.

(2)Diesel Cycle: similar to FSI fuel is injected at or just prior to the top of the compression stroke. Instead of a spark the highly compressed air is sufficient by itself to cause the fuel to ignite (glow plugs are seldom used and even then only to help raise the local temperature to the point that ignition during compression is aided, glow plugs DO NOT ignite the fuel). Due to the extreme range of fuel air ratios in a diesel it is possible and typical for diesels to idle without a load as lean as 100:1. As load on the motor increases the fuel air ratio at the highest point will only reach 35:1 making a diesel superior in terms of thermal efficiency. To date no other engine offers this level of performance or efficiency. Limitations again revolve around the toxic levels of sulfur which prevent the use of catalytic converters in diesel vehicles. Sulfur levels MUST be reduced to less than 15ppm and ideally lower than 8ppm to ensure optimum performance of diesel catalysts. Once these are implemented diesel vehicles will surpass gasoline engines in terms of lower emissions due to the wider range of lean burn fuel air ratios and the fact that the engine has lower C02 output as a result of the leaner average fuel air ratios in conjuntion with higher thermal efficiency. Diesels do not benefit from Hybrid technology simply because the diesel engine is already at the point that further complexity negates the modest 1-5% decrease in fuel consumption due to recovered energy fom the hybrid drive.

(3) HCCI, in the simplest terms harnesses detonation which allows for more energy to be released during combustion. HCCI is very similar to the diesel cycle however it relies on a spark plug to initiate the detonation sequence for optimum control of emissions and power output. In a sense it allows for faster combustion which allows for a wider range of control of combustion for a maximum reduction in emissions. This also offers a wider range of fuel options however these fuel options are still being defined as to which fraction or type of fuel will be ideal in terms of trade offs in emissions and performance. HCCI is at best 10 years away or more. Currently there are HCCI engines running in the lab but due to complexity and further need for development 10 years may be a little optimistic.

DB

This is for the Toyota engineer about "never having to replace a hybrid battery." Maybe my story will shed a little light. I have owned my Highlander Hybrid for just over a year. No problems. On Tuesday of this week, I could not start it. Nothing came on. We had it towed to the dealer where they performed their diagnostic tests and said, silly me, there was nothing wrong with the battery. They said they re-charged it and sent me on my way. I drove the car and found the battery charge was still quite low so I drove it around some more. On Saturday, yesterday, I got in my car and NOTHING. Not a light, not a sound-it was completely dead. I called Toyota service and asked why they had not replaced the battery when I took it in. They said, "well, those batteries are very expensive. We're not going to replace it if it passes all our tests." And I said, "there is obviously something wrong with it. Will you replace it now?" And he said if it passes all their tests again, it will NOT be replaced. In order for the warranty to kick in, the battery must be "defective" they only test for which, apparently, is Toyotas. The fact that the car repeatedly fails to start even after recharging and fails to hold a significant charge is not sufficient evidence. I called Toyota and they have opened up a case file but it will take them several days to get back to me. Now, I have to have my car towed to the dealership (again) and go through the same tests (again) and will probably be told they can't find anything wrong. (again). I live in Scottsdale, Arizona where the average summer temp. is over 108. I have 2 small children and now I have to drive around a vehicle knowing full well the battery can die at any time and no one will know why. Oh, but they'll tow it and charge it again and again and again and again. . . I'm not impressed so far. I'll keep you all updated.

Most NiMH batteries `self discharge' in a month or two. Expect 75% of the charge to be lost in 30 days -- even if the batteries are completely disconnected. This does not damage the batteries, it just means you can't rely on them for a lot of power after a few weeks.

With conservative design or a different technology battery somewhere for bootstrapping, cars like the Prius could probably survive a couple months of disuse without an external charge. It seems likely that letting the batteries discharge completely shouldn't cause damage, even if an external charge is required.

You can easily test the NiMH discharge rate with batteries from the drug store. Charge up a pair and put them in a flashlight and test it. Put it on the shelf and let it sit for a month or so and test again ...

There are some very new NiMH batteries on the market now that don't have the self-discharge problem. Eneloop and Uniross Hybrio are examples. They come ready to use, no initial charge necessary.

Richard