'09 FEH/MMH
Created March 6, 2008, at 6:39 pm by GaryG
The '09 FEH/MMH improvements has got myself and others interested with regard to detailed information that doesn't seem to be available yet. Ford is saying the new 2.5 I-4 will improve the standard Escape with more horsepower and 1mpg, but their saying nothing about any EPA changes to the FEH/MMH. It may be that Ford wants to finish off selling the '08 model year before letting us in on the fine details.
Most people prefer to hold off buying the last year in a decade because the resale value drops because the vehicle seems to get old quicker. For instance, a 1999 model year seems much older than a 2000 model year. It seems Ford has all of a sudden packed some nice improvements in the '09 to off set the publics way of thinking about holding off till the 2010 model year. I remember when the new Mustang Pace Car came out in 1979 with many new changes and that stopped me from waiting for the 1980 model year. The fact was I just bought a new 1979 Cobra Mustang and traded it for the new Pace Car 6 months later.
If we can keep this tread for updating details on the '09, it would be much easier for new buyers to have an on going update of what we're all finding in news releases. For instance, what is this new Michelin Low Rolling Resistant (LRR) tire Ford is putting on all Escapes. It is my opinion this new tire is going to be like the present Conti Eco-Plus tires and only allowed to be sold through Ford. From what I've read, Michelin will have new LRR tires that can improve MPG by 2-3% and higher. My concern is if this is true, the tires and not the new 2.5L engine was what raised the mileage on the '09 Escape.
GaryG
This might be the patent on the new Intake Variable Cam Timing (IVCT) that the '09 2.5L is using. I was wondering how this works since Ford hasn't provided much information on the new engine design. The patent says it's an improvement to the Honda design.
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6886533.html?highlight=ford,global,tech...
"Tt is an advantage of the present invention that a system and method according to this invention will allow excellent charge motion without the pumping work associated with a cam switching system.
It is another advantage of the present invention that the need for a charge motion control valve will be eliminated for engines otherwise requiring high charge motion at idle and low-speed operation, or more generally, part load conditions.
It is a further advantage of the present invention that an engine equipped with a valve control system according to the present invention will be capable of not only high specific output but also excellent charge motion at part load conditions."
GaryG
Thanks for searching and finding this type of information. My mechanical knowledge is not the best so I struggle with this information. Could the improved torque output also improve fuel efficiency in terrain that features plenty of vertical change?
The present 2.3L Atkinson goes to 100% load and motor assist far to easy. The load the generator puts on the 2.3L engine alone really limits the available torque for acceleration. From reading the patent, I can see the new IVCT 2.5L should be a big improvement depending on how Ford works this into the Atkinson Cycle intake valve arrangement. I would think the IVCT system would allow Ford to fine-tune the Atkinson Cycle with much better torque and FE. What I'm very interested to see is how FE will improve while running the A/C compressor. The 2.3L is dragged down to much in FE running the A/C with its low torque now IMO.
So yes, climbing hills should be better for FE, the way I climb hills anyway. I need more torque with low RPM's for better FE overall than the present 2.3L we have now. I like to reserve motor assist and the battery for pure EV driving later at a steady state speed for the best FE.
GaryG
After doing some research, my bet is Ford has got Michelin to design this tire and size for the '09 Ford Escape. Michelin is going to release a big size option in the Fall of '08 for this new "Energy Saver" tire line, but I think Ford has a jump on this tire for the '09 Escape. I found much recent reports from Michelin on this tire, but I think this was one of the earlier announcements.
Subscribe to Tire Review
September 12, 2007
"Category: North America(Akron/Tire Review) Groupe Michelin used the 2007 the International Motor Show in Frankfurt to unveil its new Energy Saver tire line, which it claims will dramatically reduce carbon emissions and cut fuel consumption.
''You will save two euros every time you fill the tank,'' Thierry Coudurier, head of Michelin’s passenger and light truck products, told reports at the event. Michelin plans to sell some 100 million of the new tire in the next five years, he said.
PSA Peugeot Citroen’s new 308 has already added the tire as OE, and Michelin plans to offer the tire to other automakers.
''They (the Energy Saver tires) will be for sure a bit more expensive'' than regular tires, Courdurier said.
The company said it has spent $41.5 million developing the Energy Saver line."
Michelin has also came out with a new winter tire called the X-Ice Xi2 that appears to be a great tire for you snow birds.
GaryG
Thanks for digging up this information. Good for those in the market for replacement tires in the future.
Get this Billy, the PLUG-IN HYBRID Escape that Ford gave Southern California Edison had Goodyear tires. At the Ceremony, many pictures were taken of that FEH and I could clearly read Goodyear in one photos showing the tire. The rims were not the '08 hybrid rims either The pictures were taken on Dec. 4th '07 by a number of press reporters, so I thought I'd look at some of the details with my Blue-ray HD computer screen.
http://www.autobloggreen.com/gallery/ford-sce-phev-escape-ceremony/51717...
It would be nice if anyone spots the Factory Plug-In Escape and takes pictures to be posted. It appears the Unit was equipped with the new '09 fuel fill system also.
GaryG
In several months you should have your 2009 FEH. Many of us are going to have a ton of interesting reading material via your reports. You might as well ask the forums you contribute to for a 2009 only FEH column.
I did not previously notice the Goodyear tires on the PHEV FEH as I was more attracted to the other features. If you got your hands on one of these for your daily drive, you could say "its a triple digit drive" today.
I'm excited that my wife and I agreed to purchase an '09 FEH. We agreed months before my '05 FEH could be ordered 3 1/2 years ago, so now I know to be patient and let my broker do his job. I'll update the groups on my progress and start looking to purchase the '09 Helms shop manuals when they are available. The manuals were a great investment for my '05, and I learned many gas saving tips from them and passed them on in these forums.
I'm not taking any chances that the SGII will not read SoC in the '09, so I'm getting the new Nav Sys like I ordered for my '05. I'm like John Dixson when it comes to having gauges, you can't have enough. After all, that Nav Sys battery SoC gauge in my '05 helped me become a hypermiler from day one.
As far as the SCE plug-in FEH, I bet I could get over 200mpg in that baby. Of course Ford would have to change the MTE gauge to read over 3,000 Miles To Empty. What a slap in the face to BIG OIL that would be!
Things are looking GOOD for the new '09 2.5L powertrain. Does this mean higher EV speeds?
Ford Previews Next-Generation Hybrids
14 February 2008
by Jack Rosebro
Speaking at the 2008 SAE Hybrid Vehicle Technology Symposium in San Diego yesterday, Sherif Markaby, Global Core Engineer for hybrids at Ford Motor Company, provided some technical details of the coming 2009 Ford Fusion and Mercury Milan hybrids, due at the end of the year, as well as of the 2009 Escape and Mariner hybrids, which are scheduled to be released in a few months.
All four hybrids will share a new powertrain that combines a 2.5L inline four-cylinder engine with a series-parallel transaxle. While the basic layout and packaging of the powertrain and related components remains for the most part unchanged from the 2005-2008 Escape component architecture, many of those components have been redesigned for improved efficiency.
Markaby also noted that Ford has sold 70,000 Escape hybrids to date, and that some units have reached 200,000 miles in service with no service problems.
The next-generation hybrid system applied in the Fusion, for example, will provide a more than 60% improvement in city cycle fuel economy over a non-hybrid I4 engine, Markaby said, and a more than 80% improvement over a V6 on the city cycle.
Variable-Voltage Converter (VVC). The new powertrain’s inverter assembly utilizes a DC-DC buck-boost converter, which Ford refers to as a Variable-Voltage Converter, to step up the voltage potential of current from the battery pack before it is synthesized into a three-phase AC waveform to power the transaxle’s two electric motor-generators.
Every model-year 2004 and up Toyota/Lexus hybrids utilizes a buck-boost converter; however, this is the first time that the architecture has been employed in a mass-produced passenger hybrid vehicle built by another manufacturer.
Stepping up voltage allows the powertrain to produce a given output using less current, which reduces resistance losses and increases efficiency. It also allows the manufacturer to use a smaller, lighter battery: the 275V, 5.5Ah, 27 kW peak power NiMH battery pack used in the new Fusion/Milan hybrids features improved cell chemistry, and is more compact, for example, than the 2005-2008 Escape hybrid’s 330V battery pack.
One of the most important attributes of VVC, according to Markaby, is “reducing the cost of the battery.” Previous Escape and Mariner hybrids used a stand-alone air conditioning loop to cool the battery pack during peak operating temperatures: the new powertrain uses only a forced-air ventilation system.
High-Efficiency Internal Combustion Engine (ICE). The 2.5L iVCT I-4 engine gets variable valve timing on the intake side (Intake Variable Cam Timing, iVCT), as well as a wide-band lambda sensor in place of a conventional oxygen sensor. The compression ratio in the engine is 12.3:1.
Idle-stop and start events are much quicker, and enable greater efficiency with as many as two times the starts and stops in a given driving cycle as the previous system. The quicker engine shut-downs and pre-positioning (for the next start) also reduces O2 build-up in the engine’s catalyst. Decel Fuel Shut-Off (DFSO) mode and electric-only mode have also been expanded.
High-Efficiency DC-DC Converter. The conventional DC-DC converter, which steps down system voltage to run the vehicle’s 12V accessory bus and charge the auxiliary 12V battery, has been redesigned to operate at higher temperatures. The unit remains liquid cooled, and can switch at higher frequencies.
Ford_hybrid_torque
The VVC variably boosts traction battery voltage to operate the motor and generator more efficiently. Click to enlarge.
High-Efficiency Transaxle. The maximum RPM of the new transaxle’s permanent-magnet synchronous motor-generators has been increased, and a new low-drag transaxle fluid has been formulated. The higher available voltages from the variable-voltage converter allow greater torque at higher speeds. Typically, such voltages also enable a more efficient recuperation of kinetic energy via regenerative braking.
Update on the SCE PHEVs. Markaby also made mention of the plug-in hybrid Escapes that Ford is delivering to Southern California Edison (SCE) for V2G research. The PHEV Escapes use a 10kWh Li-ion battery pack, and are getting as much as 120 MPG in testing. The PHEV powertrain operates in three distinct modes: electric drive (ED) mode, blended mode (a combination of engine operation and charge-depleting electric drive), and conventional hybrid mode.
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/02/ford-previews-n.html
GaryG
Note in the information above:
"High-Efficiency Internal Combustion Engine (ICE). The 2.5L iVCT I-4 engine gets variable valve timing on the intake side (Intake Variable Cam Timing, iVCT), as well as a wide-band lambda sensor in place of a conventional oxygen sensor. The compression ratio in the engine is 12.3:1."
I'm hoping the new wide-band lambda sensors will help solve the problem of reduced MPG due to changes in fuel quality (ethanol). The wide-band lambda sensors are now used to increase performance, even in race engines. These sensors help the ECU adjust air/fuel mixtures faster and much better than the conventional oxygen sensors now used in the FEH/MMH.
GaryG
GaryG, I've been looking into Ethos Fuel Re-formulator.
It a product that is suppose to help an enigne burn fuel better. Its hard to find anyone that has actually used it. Which usally means its a crap shoot.
Do you know of anyone that has tried this in a hybrid to get more milage out of the engine?
Do you think the lambda sensor would have trouble with it?
pauli
I withdraw my stupid question. I found some good research here:
http://www.torontogasprices.com/Forum_MSG.aspx?master=1&category=1054&to...
I'm seeing on other forums more and more interest in ordering and finding information on ordering the '09 FEH/MMH. In fact, other forums have people talking about what we have discussed here on Hybridcars.com.
Most of you don't know what it's like getting over 600 miles on a 15 gallon tank of gas, but I'll tell you it feels great knowing I picked a vehicle over 3 yrs ago that can if you work at it. I just looked at my trip OD and I have 539.3 miles on it with a 111 miles to empty reading. This will put me at 650.3 miles at 0 MTE with 1.3 gallons left in the tank. This means I could go over 700 miles if I need to before fill-up.
Why am I going to sell my '05 FEH when it get this kind of mileage? Because the resale value is so high, and I know the '09 will most likely perform better and have a great resale value 3 years from now. Also, interest rates were great in '05, and there great now.
Well, having just bought my almost new (it was a dealer's runabout) 07, I'd like to get a good five years out of it. We usually aim for 10 year or more on our vehicles. We are not, "Oh we must trade up to the latest model!" folks. The FEH is replacing a 94 Escort, with close to 300K on it and still going strong, tho a few aging probs. So by five years or more from now, the technology should be pretty sweet for these type of vehicles I would think?
Best mpg vehicle I ever owned, was an 89 VW golf diesel. Unfortunately driving over a plastic garbage bag killed the engine (how'd it do that, can you guess?) and tho it got fixed it was never quite ran the same again, so I sold it.
To this day no matter what I drive, I cringe when some piece of plastic comes go under the vehicle!
Ranger 1 good luck with your vehicle. Let everyone know how it is going.
I am reading that the 2009 Escape/Fusion Hybrid will be labeled a second generation hybrid. The 2010 Ford Edge and Lincoln MKX will be labeld a third generation hybrid and will be hooked up with the six cylinder (3.5L?) engine. Does this mean the electronics in the 2009 series will be significantly "more powerful" if it will also be the same equipment used in the heavier Edge and MKX? We do know, Ford is rumored to be developing their "own" suppliers for the hybrid equipment instead of relying on companies that are indirectly tied to Toyota. Within the next week or so, details should begin to emerge about the 2009 vehicles.
Looks Like Ford is joining Toyota and others on ordering packages.
By AMY WILSON, AUTOMOTIVE NEWS
As part of Ford Motor Co. CEO Alan Mulally's campaign to reduce complexity, the company is slashing the number of available equipment combinations on 2009-model vehicles.
Ford will reduce vehicle order combinations by more than 50 percent, say dealers who have been briefed on the plan.
http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080218/FREE/9084850...
This link reveals one large photo of the 2009 Escape Hybrid in black: http://www.motortrend.com/features/auto_news/2008/112_080122_2009_ford_e...
That's not the FEH Billy, there is no HV battery vent and I also thought the fuel filler door was removed and a capless system was new for all the '09's. The black one has the optional 17" x 7" wheels that's not available on the FEH. The cream colored one has rims I don't see available in the '09 Escape ordering guide, must be available only on the Mariner. Also, where is the new chin spoiler on the front or the rear tire spoilers? You think those tires are michelin?
Just kidding around with you, but I'd really like to see some close-up pictures of a Black Limited FEH inside and out. The ordering guide said the Escape comes with disc brakes in the front and drum brakes in the rear. Nothing about the Hybrid rear disc brakes. I hope they didn't change that on the '09 FEH/MMH because of all the noise problems people were having. You know, I've never had the disc brake dust problem you get on most front rims, even on my rear disc brakes on my FEH.
You are correct and I knew this was not a hybrid due to the rear cargo window lacking the vent. It was a 2008. Like others, is there any 2009 photos available?
2009 Escape Hybrid will use rear drum brakes.
Rear drums are more compatible with roll stability control,
said Ford safety spofesman Wes Sherwood.
Rear drums are more compatible with roll stability control? NO. The Ford Edge, Explorer and others have 4 wheel disc brakes and roll staiblity control.
Billy, I'm going to ride the fence on the remarks 0T7 brought up because I had the same thoughts if Ford did a change back to rear drum brakes. The problem is, the Edge or the Explorer don't have regen in addition. It would seem to me Ford went to rear disc because of more roll drag resistance of drum brakes. I'm sure the answer will be solve in the near future when we start seeing delivery of the '09 FEH/MMH. Also, 0T7 could post a link of Wes Sherwood's comments to help us all see the exact wording of what he said.
I was about to sign up for an 08 FEH, but after reading this forum, maybe I should wait for the 09's? One dealer said today it's a 5 month wait anyway, and that all the 08's are headed to California.
Ford dealers are not very excited about Hybrids, they are so hard to get, and the dealers have so much other stock on hand they want to move, which is hard with the price of gas, and the mpg not being so great on too many new cars and trucks.
I live in Tennessee, so I prefer a FWD for the better mileage. Snow and ice are minimal around here.
Since someone brought this up, I am very curious about this question about four-wheel disc brakes.
We had an early 90's Mercury Sable wagon that had ABS and 4-wheel discs and I'm sure that our 2001 Escape did too. However, my 2004 Taurus has rear drums but our 2008 FEH has 4-wheel discs.
I always thought 4-wheel discs were considered superior and that manufacturers had adopted it exclusively. Wonder why that isn't so.
Source 2008 2009 Escape rear drums.
AUTO LETTERS by Jim Mateja.
Chicago Tribune Transportation section Sunday, April 27 2008.
Thanks 0T7,
Just a simple cut and paste:
Q: Any explanation why Ford put drum brakes on the rear wheels of the Escape? Was that one of Ford's "better ideas?"
—I.C., Willowbrook
A: Yes it was. Ford switched from rear disc brakes to drums on 2008 gas-powered Escapes because rear drums are more compatible with roll stability control, said Ford safety spokesman Wes Sherwood. Ford 2009 hybrid Escapes will use rear drums as well to accommodate roll stability control.
Here is my take on the drum and disc brake issue.
The 2005 Explorer has anti-lock 4 wheel disc brakes and roll stability control. It is stated in this link:
http://car-reviews.automobile.com/Ford/review/2005-ford-explorer/4620/1
The 2008 non-hybrid Escape has rear drum brakes but has the roll stability control.
The 2008 hybrid Escape has 4 wheel anti-lock disc brake but not roll stability control.
Based upon what Ford has already did in the 2005 Explorer, 4 wheel disc brakes and roll stability control is possible combination. The 2008 non-hybrid should have had disc brakes, not drum brakes.
We know the regenerative braking on the hybrid Escape has been a problem combining with electronic stability and roll stability control. If Ford can only combine rear drum brakes with the regenerative braking system with roll stability control and electronic stability, then let it be. I doubt that it will remain that way if another manufacture introduces a similar system with rear disc brakes.
Billy, it could be a programming conflict like Ford had with the PAT system on the '05 FEH and was resolved on the '06. It also could be a cost issue or a combination of both. We know regen is not driven off the rear wheels, but they all work together for a smooth braking system.
I agree that Ford will work out the bugs like they have in the past and when they do, the gas Escape will more than likely get rear disc also. I think it's about cost mainly right now.
Hi There:
If anyone cares, that picture that Billk linked to is an 07. You can tell by the hand grip in the windshield. Ford eliminated them in the 08 redesign, their not there anymore.
When I was test driving it, I wondered where the handles were since most car have them, when a friend just bought an older escape, I noticed, they were in the same place as the picture, so that must be an old picture.
Another reason I ordered the Navigational system:
"Another important aspect of Sync is, being software-based, it is highly updateable. Sync customers can update to the next-generation phone or iPod, for example. Ford can add services as well: In January, the automaker announced the addition of a “911 Assist” feature that will enable Sync to connect with emergency assistance in the event of an air-bag deployment.
And Sync will be the conduit by which Ford will become the first automaker to offer Sirius Travel Link, a new navigation system that will provide up-to-the-minute information and entertainment content — including local movie shows and times, real-time traffic information for 78 markets, and current gas prices from an estimated 120,000 filling stations nationwide."
http://www.autoobserver.com/2008/04/ford-microsoft.html
Good article!
More on the Nav Sys, Sync, Sirius and Micosoft:
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2008/01/22/075604.html
Information on the '09 FEH/MMH is starting to flow a little, here is another article:
http://www.autobytel.com/content/shared/articles/templates/index.cfm/ID/...
The Chicago Auto Show was way back in February (I was there). This is old news.
Ok, how this for more information on the Michelin Latitude Tour design.
Also, it looks like the gas Escapes have gone to electric power assist like our FEH/MMH.
"* Escape and Mariner feature new low-rolling-resistance tires, developed in cooperation with Michelin.
The new 16-inch Michelin Latitude Tour design features a unique mold design, reduced weight and a new-generation tread pattern optimized for reduced fuel consumption.
* Aerodynamic refinements that account for increased fuel efficiency include a redesigned front bumper spoiler and new rear tire spoilers, the first application on a Ford SUV.
* Additionally, Electric Power Assist Steering (EPAS) is featured on both the standard and hybrid models of Escape and Mariner. EPAS replaces the traditional hydraulic power steering pump. Because it operates only when required for steering assistance, it contributes to lower fuel consumption than the hydraulic pump, which operated constantly during engine operation."
http://www.ford.com/about-ford/news-announcements/press-releases/press-r...
More info I haven't seen till now.
Here is a link to the new Escape Michelin tire, but there is no mention of it being a LRR tire. Also, there is no P235-70R-16 tire listed for sale even. My guess is that Ford will have the control of the sale of the special P235-70R-16 LRR Michelin Latitude Tour tires like the Eco-Plus for a while. Looks like the standard Latitude Tour sale for $300 plus each. No telling what the P235-70R-16 Ford/Michelin will sale for.
http://www.1010tires.com/tire.asp?tirebrand=Michelin&tiremodel=Latitude+...
Electric power steering is becoming increasingly common on cars and I think the '08 gasoline Escapes and Mariners had it, too.
It does reduce drag on the engine which boosts efficiency slightly, plus it reduces weight and complexity slightly. It is used on hybrids so that power steering is still available when the ICE cycles off.
More Good news on the '09 FEH/Mmh , I think Ford did change to the 2nd Generation eCVT with the new Variable Voltage Converter. The reason I think this is true is because new road test are reporting higher EV speeds than ever before! SOMEBODY STOP ME!
Here is the article:
"In the hybrid the same improvements that were noticeable when I drove the prototype plug-in Escape in New York in March have been applied to the 2009 production models. The automatic starts and stops are now much smoother than before without the shudder that can be felt in many earlier hybrid models. Additionally, if the battery state of charge is sufficient the Escape can now go up to 40mph in EV mode compared to under 30mph previously."
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/05/15/abg-first-drive-2009-ford-escape...
If this guy couldn't get 30mph out of a new '08 FEH , than we might see EV speeds of 52mph like the plug-in prototype. Like I said earlier, if Ford kept the 330V Hv battery (which they did), and went to the VVC in the eCVT , EV could be longer and faster in the new '09 FEH/MMH.
Hey Gary,
I too saw that article and was thinking the same thing on the VVC. I was wondering when you would start drooling about that tidbit. If true it will be a great change. I have searched hard for many months now to get an indication of the 09 FEH EPA ratings to see if there is an expectation of better mileage, To no avail. We have all seen the Auto Show news clips saying the regular eascapes are bumping up a bit but not the Hybrid...... This all seems fishy, like Ford is holding a card in their sleeve. Does anyone have any "sound" information on the MPG's for the 2009? It would really hit the competition hard if Ford squeaked 1-2 more published MPG over the 2008's - And also put additional distance between the standard ICE (economy) vehicles that are closing the gap.. I know all the Hypermilers here will advantage the new running gear - but it would be good to see the increases in the published numbers as well. At the same time it will piss me off if Ford is holding back on some easy (no cost) tweaks - only to put them in play for 2010.... Ie: keeping the card in their sleeve till next year.
I also called my buyer last friday, he told me the Ford Factory rep was going to have my vechicle "scheduled" by monday this week... I called again on Wed this week, and my buyer told me that ford stopped scheduling ALL escapes ( FEH and Regulars) for another week - did not know the reason.... He did say he expects it to be scheduled in the next week and could be delivered sometime late June but more likley early July This guy has a lot of integrity and if it was not coming till Dec, he would tell me as straight as he is hearing it. He also told me that according to Ford I am the #1 on the list for Colorado and very high nationally. The race is still on Gary! Twin Black Pearl Slate's!
Not sure getting a early vehicle off the line is the best thing - but that is what the warranty is for.
Hi there hybrid groupies. I enjoy reading everyone's posts, so I thought I'd make a comment (observation rather) on the 09 FEH. While, it looks like Ford has made some great under-the-hood improvements as well as trim & navigation improvements to the 09 model vs. the 08 model (which I have)... I believe that they did make one change that appears to be a step back. It looks as though they went from 4 wheel disc brakes to having drum breaks in the rear. I had read that somewhere a while ago and by the looks of the pics from the blog, the rear wheels do appear to have drum brakes. I believe the reason for this was the addition of the roll stability control. I think it had something to do with the engineers having a hard time working out the Reg braking with the RSC. I also will be interested to see if they eventually dd a seperate electric motor to power the AC compressor while the engine is off. THAT would be a major improvement in my opinion. I'd trade the 2.5L if it meant getting better gas mileage. The 2.1 seems to accelerate just fine by me. As I learned from gary, you want to keep it between 1800 and 2500rpms on acceleration anyhow.
Evlar
Oops, I meant to say 2.3 L. I don't even know my own car.
Cougar, I've seen articles say that the hybrid model got the same 1mpg increase like the gas versions, but nothing official from Ford. One article talked about the '09 V6 Escape Hybrid, and we know that is wrong also.
There should be a hard core increase in mileage, but for the regular person that gets in and just goes, EPA and Ford must be reasonable in rating hard numbers for the FEH/MMH. On the other hand, those of us who take advantage of EV, should be very happy about the new VVC. Ford Engineers must work hard to get those who don't take advantage of these improvements just to get one or two MPG more out of the FEH/MMH for them. I think you and I are on the same page here, but for me, I may see as much as a 5-10mpg increase in my tank averages with just these improvements. Here is what I think the Ford Engineers are telling us about the '09 improvements:
1 Higher electric motor RPM = faster EV speeds
2 New transmission fluid to allow higher speeds with lower gear and motor resistance.
3 Better fuel cut when letting off the accelerator (Decel).
4 Easier and more often EV when letting off the gas pedal with 2 times as many start and stop events and at higher speeds. We know we can shift to "N" and coast much longer in EV.
5 More efficient regen for charging the battery with the improved VVC
6 Less heat (VVC) and need for cooling while charging the HV battery. Possibly deleting the Aux battery A/C completely.
7 Greater torque at higher speeds from the motors for acceleration due to the new VVC
8 The 330V battery will be more efficient and last longer because of less conversion losses with the new VVC. This is like getting a bigger HV battery.
9 The new wide-band lambda senor is more efficient in adjusting air/fuel mixtures over the present heated oxygen sensors.
10 More efficient 2.5L engine with higher HP and torque to run the A/C compressor more efficiently.
Toyota has already been using many of these new improvements since 2004. The FEH/MMH has already proven it is the most fuel efficient SUV built, and these improvements should make it much more efficient.
I have read that the GM Volt will have a heating and cooling system for its hybrid battery. We also know that GM had trouble with the battery in its EV1 in cold and hot environments. I have come across reports of the Toyota Prius hybrid battery cells swelling in several reports. Deleting he hybrid battery heating/cooling system could "save" cash for Ford but is this a case of short term savings but longer term problems?
That could be Billy, but if the A/C remained, the VVC may reduce the amount of time the compressor will need to run. That would be good also. One thing that caught my eye in the article though was that they were going to delete the A/C and pack the cells closer in the '09 Fusion Hybrid battery. Ford has a patent on how the battery cells in the FEH 330V are designed (spaced) for optimum cooling. The space is already there in the FEH for a large battery, so why compact the cells like in the Prius and Volt where they would hold heat longer.
Here is another article about the '09 FEH EV speed up to 60km/h (40mph):
"The Escape Hybrid's e-CVT transaxle, which utilizes two electric motor/generator units remains largely unchanged as does the 330-volt nickel metal hydride battery pack, but the Escape Hybrid is now programmed to operate on electric only at speeds up to about 60 km/h."
http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/jk/080521.htm
Gary G. this is for you as it looks like it might be awhile for the Prius to sport a Volt like battery: link: http://www.evworld.com/blogs/index.cfm?page=blogentry&authorid=12&blogid...
But what goes around, comes around. It is very possible that the reason carmakers like Toyota and Honda aren't developing advanced plug-in hybrids isn't because they don't believe in it.
It may be because, legally, they can't.
How's that?
All production hybrids today use nickel metal hydride batteries, a technology developed and patented by Energy Conversion Devices (ECD), whose Cobasys spin-off joint-venture with ChevronTexaco owns the worldwide patent rights. To its credit and its stockholders benefit, the company has been aggressive in protecting those rights suing the likes of Panasonic, Sanyo, Toshiba, and Yuasa, forcing them to become licensees who must pay a 3% royalty to the company for each battery they build.
From research done by Charles Whalen and others, it appears that those licenses are very restrictive. They apparently limit the power of the batteries and their applications, with Cobasys reserving the right to be the sole manufacturer of batteries for electric-drive vehicles in North America.
In a limited circulation, private email, Whalen -- who is an occasional EV World contributor -- speculated that "although the specific terms are confidential, this stipulation in Panasonic's license restricting it to producing only 'certain types' of NiMH batteries for 'certain transportation applications' is widely interpreted and understood to mean that Panasonic can only produce HEV (hybrid-electric vehicle) batteries (<10Ah) but not BEV (battery electric vehicles) batteries (>80Ah) for vehicles sold in North America until 2015. Where this line is specifically drawn in Panasonic's license, whether it's closer to 10Ah or closer to 80Ah, is an interesting question, which of course we don't know the answer to. But the answer to that question is indeed very important because it is in that middle ground that we find the capacity range for PHEVs".
Panasonic is the exclusive manufacturer of the batteries used in the Prius, Highlander Hybrid and Lexus RX400h hybrids. Whalen is suggesting that the reason Toyota isn't interested in building plug-in hybrids (PHEVs) isn't because they don't want to. It's because they can't under Panasonic's license agreement with Cobasys. A plug-in hybrid that has a 20 to 60 miles of electric-only range would require a battery pack much larger than the 10 amp hour restriction of the license.
Whalen asserts that Panasonic does, in fact, have a 95Ah battery that could be used in plug-in hybrids, but that it has mysteriously disappeared from Panasonic's online catalog. He believes the reason has to do with the $30 million judgment against Panasonic and Toyota for patent infringement.
This is also why Toyota stopped making the RAV4 EV. It too required a battery pack much larger than the 10Ah limitation of the Cobasys license.
Your right Billy, I knew big oil had taken control of those batteries as well as the White House years ago. I didn't know the details, so thanks for the article.
Another article on the increase in the '09 FEH EV speed:
"Another tweak for 2009 was increasing the electric-only mode to a healthy 40 mph (65 km/h). With a light foot during acceleration or while at a constant cruising speed, the 2009 Escape Hybrid could get most people to work within city limits on battery alone."
http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/jb/2009-ford-escape.php
This baby has the new VVC!
Another article on the '09 FEH/Mmh revised hybrid powertrain being the same in the '09 Fusion and Milan. The Fusion and Milan will have a smaller 275V battery according to the press release Feb. 14 2008. The hope of the new VVC in the '09 FEH continues!
"The 2009 Escape goes on sale this June and its Mercury twin, the Mariner, will get the same upgrades. We will also see the new 2.5-liter four-cylinder engine and revised hybrid powertrain in the 2009 Ford Fusion and Mercury Milan, which will be Ford's first sedans with a hybrid option."
http://automobile.automotive.com/67589/0805-2009-ford-escape/index.html
Now that it appears that the '09 FEH/MMH eCVT has the new Variable Voltage Converter (VVC), I thought it would be nice that new buyers understand what that means. Toyota changed in 2004 to the Buck-Boost Converter I've posted about. This link will help you understand why the '09 FEH/MMH has increased in EV speed and efficiency.
http://ecow.engr.wisc.edu/cgi-bin/getbig/ece/491/lorenz/priuspower/toyot...
EPA ratings are the same, but real mileage is going up, up, up!
It appears that the plug-in FEH has the same VVC and allows up to 40mph in EV, the same reported increase in speed as the '09 FEH.
Found yet another article that verifies the increase in EV speeds:
"The shudder that used to occur during engine start stop has now been eliminated providing much more seamless transitions between electric and hybrid/internal combustion operation. The maximum speed for electric only operation has also been increased from less than 30mph up to 40mph."
http://www.greenfuelsforecast.com/ArticleDetails.php?articleID=508
More confirmation on EV speed:
"Every chance it gets, the Escape seamlessly shuts the gas engine down and runs off batteries. Like all Hybrids, mileage depends upon how you drive. If you're ready for the possibility of the person behind you exiting their vehicle, running up and bashing your skull in with a mallet (I love LA), very gentle throttle inputs will keep the gas motor at bay up to 40 mph. Even the Lexus LS600hL can only pull off that trick up to 30 mph. When no other cars are present you can hypermile your gas - electric Ford to 60 mpg around town."
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2009-ford-escape-hybrid-review/
Wow, wonder what this baby will do around my town in Jupiter FL.
FWIW, the Altima hybrid could always go up to 43mph in EV. It's a great speed for many side roads, at least in my neck of the woods. You just have to watch the battery depletion.
This morning's 2009 FEH production update from my dealer: "Ford has pushed production of the '09 hybrids to the middle of July or the 1st of August."
You know Hypermiling has more than hit the streets when a new car review talks about the P&G technique. Here is yet another article on the new '09 FEH/MMH's EV speed.
"The ride
Ease into the driver’s seat covered with eco-fabric (made from 100 percent recycled material), turn the key and enjoy the silence. This is the beauty of the hybrid. And for 2009, this silence from the electric motor is possible up to a speed of 40 mph – up from 30 mph for 2008 models – before the gas engine kicks in. And when it does, you’ll barely notice it. Recalibration of the powertrain's software provides a near imperceptible transition between gas engine and electric motor. However, driving without triggering the gas engine takes some practice and a bit of geographic luck (few hills, no jack rabbit starts, and a battery with at least a 75 percent charge).
During our test drive, we were easily able to get up to 30 mph in electric mode before triggering the gas engine. It’s important to mention that the 2009 Escape Hybrid’s ability to operate in electric mode in speeds up to 40 mph doesn’t mean that it always will. It just means that if you have enough battery charge and are under the right conditions, the gas engine might turn off and operate with the energy stored in the battery.
But this change has another benefit: it makes the Escape a prime candidate for the Pulse and Glide driving technique. When this compact SUV hits the streets in August, hyper milers will be blogging up a storm bragging about their insanely high MPG records."
http://www.autousa.com/content/2009-ford-escape-hybrid.jsp
Somebody Stop Me!
This list of equipment for the '09 FEH shows 4 wheel disc brakes.
http://autos.aol.com/cars-Ford-Escape+Hybrid-2009/equipment
I noticed a reference to a 2 speed CVT with OD! How does that work?
That only proves the guy who made up the list knows nothing about the eCVT and seen "L" and "D" and ask a salesman does it have overdrive.
This was about the third place I've seen that list the '09 as having 4 wheel disc brakes. Found another today that a dealership listed the '09 FEH equipment that included 4 wheel disc brake. That picture in the Factory of those '09 FEH's being built for the CA Lifeguards had 4 wheel disc brakes also. This may prove to be an all to do about nothing and the FEH/MMH retained 4 wheel disc brakes. At least we know that the eCVT is not two speeds with overdrive.
Wondering about the 40mph E mode in the 09. Sounds great, and I also would hope that it goes the same distance or perhaps even further in EV mode than previous gens of FEH. It will be interesting to see the reality tests once folks on the forum actually have 09's!
I wonder this, because all things being equal, and things obeying the laws of thermodynamics has me thinking you could go faster but shorter distance.
I hope the 09 is not quite as sensitive to 'the foot' in EV mode, as prior generations of FEH. I'm very impressed with my FEH so far and am getting pretty good economy. However, my one grouch so far would be that in EV mode, or at take off you have to work the gas pedal like it's made of egg shells. Wish it weren't quite so touchy!
Even with my '05 FWD FEH, I can tell the faster in EV I go, the quicker the battery drains. The battery will not drop as far (~ 41.6%) before a restart if I'm doing say 35mph in EV. Below 30mph the battery SoC will drop below 40% before a restart. If the new VVC has been added to the '09, Ford has said the transfer of energy would be much more efficient. Since the size and 330V battery remains, it should mean further distances in EV mode.
In two of the test drives reported on the '09 FEH, they mention having a high battery SoC was needed to get to 40mph. This sounds a little strange to me because as long as I have over ~42%, I can hold 38-39mph in EV with a tailwind. I'm thinking the higher electric motor RPM the Feb. 14 article talks about may be restricted to a much higher SoC at those speeds. What concerns me is nothing is being said about what the speed is when the engine will shutdown on deceleration. We know it's 40mph now when you are in "L", but this will be the first thing I'd want to know on my first drive. If the engine shutdown at a higher speed than 40mph, we will know EV speed will go higher than 40mph as the vehicle breaks-in.
In order to overcome the sensitive foot it takes to accelerate in EV mode, I take my right shoe off. I've been doing this for over a year now and I have full control accelerating in EV. The moment I leave my shoe on now, I lose that great control and feel of the accelerator pedal. The top hypermilers all drive with their shoe off, even with non-hybrid vehicles.
This link cllaims the new Michelin tires are 41psi. See this link: http://www.autoblog.com/2008/06/25/in-the-autoblog-garage-2009-mercury-m...
"The 41 psi low rolling resistance tires didn't feel harsh on bumpy roads, which is a notable improvement over the jarring ride of its battery-assisted predecessor."
Re 2009 brakes - Drum or Disc on rear:
This 08 window sticker (MMH) specifically mentions 4 wheel disc brakes:
http://www.blueovalforums.com/forums/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=7...
This 09 window sticker (FEH) fails to identify the type of brakes:
http://www.blueovalforums.com/forums/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=7...
My conclusion: the 09 FEH/MMH will have rear drum brakes.
Here is a link that goes into somewhat new details about the new 2009 Escape Hybrid features:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/06/ford-gives-2009.html#more
It is easy enough for the Joe and Jane Doe to grasp.
It won't be long before posters here will be reporting oin the 2009 Escape Hybrid.
Hi There:
talking about features, After looking at some pictures of the interior of the '09, I noticed that there is a button kind of next to the 110 volt plug. Its between the insert and the 110 volt plug.
Does anyone know what this is?
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/06/25/in-the-autoblog-garage-2009-mercury-m...
http://www.autoblog.com/photos/2009-mercury-mariner-hybrid-2/881258/
-paul
From the greencarcongress article:
"Through May 2008, Ford has sold a combined 76,120 units of the Escape and Mariner hybrids since the first introduction of the Escape Hybrid in October 2004."
Is anyone aware of the accuracy of "76,120" FEH/MMH units sold?
Much different than the EPA hybrid site data (which they "update frequently" [Not!]).
Re: the mystery button.
I can't say for sure, but I would guess that it is the "OFF" button for the vehicle stability control system.
To clarify - government numbers (such as those on IRS pages) related to the US tax credit only count FEH & MMH's sold on or after Jan. 1st 2006. Hybrids sold prior qualified for a deduction not the current tax credit with a 60,000 cap.
It should be the off-on button for traction control. This is different from the electronic stability control feature.
I thought it might be a rearview camera control. I read a review on a MMH that had one, funny huh?
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/06/25/in-the-autoblog-garage-2009-mercury-m...
When I read that article I thought it was a misprint and meant backup sensors. The FEH I ordered has the sensors as part of the Limited package. Would have loved a camera instead like the Prius can come with.
GaryG, go to this link: http://www.fordedgeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=1624
Look for post #9 where another link exists that will take you to: http://avelectronic.com/NavigationVideo%20Camera%20Interface.html
This link claims you can have a rearview camera installed in your Ford OEM radio/Navigational unit. There is a photo of this on the link.
Might make your 2009 FEH more similar to the Pirus.
Hmm, I see the Lincoln MKS has the Syn system and rearview camera---from this link: http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FirstDrives/articleId=126727
The MKS comes standard with electronic stability control, HID headlamps, power-adjustable heated and cooled front seats, heated rear seats, leather upholstery and an eight-speaker audio system with Sync control.
The test car we drove added the all-wheel-drive system (a $1,870 increase in base price over the front-driver) and the grandly named Ultimate Package. As its name implies, it is the king of options packages, enveloping all the other packages into its ultimate-ness. With this $5,995 compendium you get (take a deep breath here): voice-activated navigation system, rearview camera, THX surround-sound audio system with a 10-gig hard drive, adaptive headlamps with automatic high-beams, rain-sensing wipers, front parking assist sensors, power rear-window sunshade, keyless ignition, dual-panel moonroof, 19-inch wheels and upgraded leather. The 20-inch wheels will cost you another $685 on top of the Ultimate Package price
This tells me if you push hard enough, you can get a rear veiw camera for your FEH.
Again, I could be wrong about this but I believe one of the new features Ford is bringing to the '09 FEH is stability control, not traction control. That's why I think the button is the off switch for the stability control.
"Might make your 2009 FEH more similar to the Pirus."
Thanks Billy for the info.
Since the '09 FEH Limited comes with the back-up sensor system, I most likely will pass on installing a camera. I'm sure I'll have my hands full learning all the tricks on the second generation navigational system. Also, my priority is 2 more SGII's, a full size Limited rim and tire for a spare, window tinting and a set of Helms '09 workshop manuals. My Verizon pocket PC/phone contract is up and I may need a new phone/pc that is ideal for the Voice/Nav and Sync system. This new hands free system is going to get a bit getting use too. I'm sure we will have a special thread here on this 10 Gig hard drive system.
Gary:
Have you checked to see if a full size spare will fit below? My daughter pontiac could not fit one, it was a disappontment.
Hi Paul
I have a full size matching spare on my '05 FEH and the '09 FEH can be ordered with a full size spare in fleet sales. The fleet spare is non-matching as most full size spares are.
I had a bad experience with my '05 FEH that had sidewall damage that took 2 weeks to order a new Eco-Plus tire from Ford. The Eco--Plus could only be ordered from Ford if you owned a FEH and had a VIN number back then.
After talking to the parts manager two weeks ago, he thinks the new Michelins will have the same conditions we ran into over three years ago. The manager has the Eco- Plus in stock now and most likely will stock the Michelin LRR tires as soon as he can.
At least the '09 FEH/MMH is EPA rated better than last year:
"Escape Hybrid continues to deliver fuel economy gains as well,
strengthening its title as the most fuel-efficient and environmentally
friendly SUV on the planet. For 2009, the Hybrid achieved a 1 mpg
improvement on the highway, for 34 city/31 highway mpg.
The upgraded Hybrid model will use the new 2.5-liter I-4 designed to run on the Atkinson combustion cycle. A new engine processor enables nearly imperceptible transitions between gas and electric vehicle mode. Plus, control system enhancements offer customers more electric mode driving, switching over from gas at 35 mph rather than 25 mph with the previous model."
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/0...
I think this confirms what I thought about the '09 FEH/MMH having the new VVC to increase speed and efficiency as the '09 Fusion and Milan Hybrid.
"More capable. Ford Motor says the 2009 Ford Escape Hybrid on sale next month and Ford Fusion and Mercury Milan hybrids due in 2010 will be able to run on electric power alone up to 40 mph - 10 mph faster than current models. As now, when the battery runs down, the gas engine kicks in and recharges it."
http://www.mydesert.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080701/BUSINESS/807...
This is the ambient lighting control switch. I believe every push will cycle you to a different color, and then off or on. There is a switch to turn traction control on and off, but it may be located on the dash. Here are links to the 2009 manuals.
http://www.motorcraftservice.com/pubs/cont...1/09hevqg1e.pdf Quick reference
http://www.motorcraftservice.com/pubs/cont...1/09frdmg1e.pdf Maintenance schedule
http://www.motorcraftservice.com/pubs/cont...3/09sycsy1e.pdf Sync for FEH
http://www.motorcraftservice.com/pubs/cont...2/09ngnsn1e.pdf Navigation system
http://www.motorcraftservice.com/pubs/cont...1/09hevog1e.pdf Owners manual Happy reading !
Thanks DD
I read the '09 owners manual last night and it looks like Ford still has a 40mph EV speed limit and they did keep the Aux battery A/C. Looks like Ford also warns against the hypermiler technique call FAS (turning the key off while moving). They also warn you that you will void your warranty if you do not run approved 5-20W oil. I recommend not using 0-20W Mobil 1 as some people have done here for a while now. Ford confirmed they have the ability to retrieve driving history before an accident or what caused damage to a system by the driver. Basically, Ford is Big Brother watching you when it comes to warranty or accidents now.
When I talk to the inventor of the SGII Ron Delong, he told me that a SGIII would only be developed if he added this feature to read the history like Ford now can monitor. It would be nice if we could read this data to confirm or deny anything Ford claims for warranty issues.
Hi Gary,
Ford is coming to Southern California to interview MMH/FEH owners in a few weeks. They are going to be road testing my FEH and I think there will be 09 or 10 to demo too.
Anything comments or suggestions you would like me to pass along to the factory engineers? I have had my 08 for about 7 months and have been very happy so far.
Due to the high number of hills my mileage in only 30 to 34 mpg. But this beats my old Surburban @ 16.5 MPG!
-Don
Hi Don
I guess my questions would be centered around the eCVT and gauges.
1. Why can't improvements be made in EV speeds like Toyota's TCH, THH and Lexus hybrids. The Prius is said to have an increase in speed to 62mph in 2010. It's not that the Toyota's can hold those speeds in EV, but they allow engine shutdown from those speeds.
2. Ford needs to get rid of these graphs on the Nav Sys and just give us digital readouts. We need a percent readout for battery SoC like the Scangauge can provide.
3. Why does the average MPG drop data before an entire average Tank is calculated. The Scangauge confirms the OEM gauge can't record as much as one entire Tank average. Honda has a lifetime average that would be nice to have on the FEH/MMH.
I would hope other member here could add to this list for Don to ask to the Engineers. Ford had a weekend meet with new owners back in '05 where a list of questions were answered for FEH owners. This would be a good time to take advantage of Don's interview. There is a thread on CleanMPG.com where notes were taken that is very helpful also. Here it is:
http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125
Just ordered a 09' FEH Limited FWD. Dealer thinks it will be in around Oct for delivery. This dealer ordered it using X-Plan pricing. I had one dealer tell me NO dealer in the country would order one using X-Plan pricing. (and we wonder why Ford is hurting??) 10 Min later I had one on order from another dealer. If you have access to this plan, you can save about $2300. Don't let someone tell you they can't accept the deal. They can!!!
Gary & other, Thanks for all the info. You helped me make up my mind on what to get. TCH was aweful impressive, but a small SUV is more practical for my family. The battery took up too much space in the Camry's trunk.
Tony
Congrads Tony
Once you get a VIN number you can track the status HERE:
http://www.blueovalforums.com/forums/index.php?showforum=80
by joining the Blue Oval Forum. Just post a new thread asking ViperPilot tracking status. I just requested mine for the first time today.
Also, I read if you join the American Quarter HQRSE Assoc. and are a member for 2 months (by the time you get your FEH), Ford gives members a $500 rebate on new purchases. The cost of a one year membership is $35. I joined when I ordered my '09 FEH over two months ago, so I should be able to get the Ford rebate. My Broker said Ford sales a lot of trucks to that ASSOC. and that's why they support it's members. Here is the link for more information about the FEH/MMH rebate.
http://www.aqha.com/
Good Luck and glad you got X Plan!
Gary
Thanks for the info. Unfortunately it looks the the X-Plan purchases are excluded for the $500 rebate.
"The $500 incentive is in addition to all other publicly available Ford Motor Company retail offers in effect at the time of purchase or lease of any new vehicle and may not be used in combination with other private offers. Note: A,X,Z,D plans are excluded"
Oh well, I still got a great deal. Should be helpful to everyone not getting a discount.
Danka
Don - My question is:
When will they make the a/c run off the electric motor?
(formery Tony D)
Thanks,
A dealer sent me the Ford/Mercury order guides for the 09' Escape & Marniner. This shows all std equipment as well as all the available options for each trim. So if your wanting to order one you can see what you can get
http://www.blueovalforums.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=25469
Tony
Tony
Unless you have a question to ViperPilot regarding a VIN number or something related, you should post general information in the Escape/Mariner Forum on Blue Oval. Here is the link:
http://www.blueovalforums.com/forums/index.php?s=bf9048ff29fa7f36838d678...
The ViperPilot Forum is used to Track vehicles and Plant information and ViperPilot is a Ford employee just giving us this service. That forum is for all Ford and Mercury customers, not a forum any certain vehicle.
Thanks
ooops
Can I move that Thread?
Tony, I don't think you can move it, generally moderators will do that. I'm pretty sure that information is already on the Escape/Mariner forum also. Just post future questions and answers on the Escape/Mariner Forum. There are some excited posters waiting for their vehicles and there are other Ford employee's to answer questions. It's a Ford friendly site!
In the ViperPilot forum, VP is also providing a link with a picture of buyers Window Sticker. I've seen the MMH '09 sticker and the FEH sticker and the MMH sticker confirms front disc and rear drum brakes. The FEH sticker I saw made no mention of the type of brake, but it most likely is rear drum also.
Folks that want to visit and take a look, you may have to join the Blue Oval Forum to access the link to the window stickers of the '09 FEH/MMH. Here is the link to the ViperPilot Blue Oval forum to take a look:
http://www.blueovalforums.com/forums/index.php?showforum=80
See if you can open this window sticker:
http://www.blueovalforums.com/forums/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=7...
Don -
I have another question.
Is it going to be possible to connect a rear entertainment system to the new Nav system stereo (example: headrest monitors) so they can be played through the cars speakers?
Thanks,