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	<title>Comments on: Fix Detroit? Guaranteed Car Loans and $4 Gas</title>
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	<link>http://www.hybridcars.com/fix-detroit-guaranteed-car-loans-and-4-gas-25195/</link>
	<description>Auto alternatives for the 21st century</description>
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		<title>By: Bryce</title>
		<link>http://www.hybridcars.com/fix-detroit-guaranteed-car-loans-and-4-gas-25195/#comment-14166</link>
		<dc:creator>Bryce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Nov 2008 02:57:09 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[people who haul hay do that for work....not for fun......and those people are my neighbors.  : )  None of them have boats.....though one has an RV I think, but that runs on its own power.  ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>people who haul hay do that for work&#8230;.not for fun&#8230;&#8230;and those people are my neighbors.  : )  None of them have boats&#8230;..though one has an RV I think, but that runs on its own power.  </p>
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		<title>By: Timothy J Bradley</title>
		<link>http://www.hybridcars.com/fix-detroit-guaranteed-car-loans-and-4-gas-25195/#comment-14165</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy J Bradley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Nov 2008 01:31:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://127.0.0.1/wordpress12/?p=4031#comment-14165</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Nobody has yet responded to my very recent post of , but I should clarify my statement that&lt;br /&gt;
&quot;purchasers of big GM Hybrids&quot; (should) &quot;have some assistance&quot; - I should have limited this to vehicles produced  prior to the introduction of a subsidization bill. Obviously, the intent is to encourage the future of fuel-efficient vehicles.  The corrolary proposition would seem (at first glance) to be that the goal is to discourage companies from producing gas-hog (read: large SUV&#039;s like Suburban, Tahoe, Expedition, Yukon, Armada, etc.).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
My thinking is this. GM has made Hybrid SUV&#039;s.  There is a market, hopefully diminishing, for such vehicles. Let&#039;s help GM, Ford, Chrysler, get rid of their INVENTORY of large hybrids, while &quot;sunsetting&quot; the subsidy to discourage future production.  It should be easy enough to craft the language to exclude Lexus Hybrid SUV&#039;s - sorry, but this market is composed of Junior League &#039;fashionistas&#039;, but perhaps I have succumbed to the masculinity of too many &quot;like a rock&quot; commercials, and am willing to accept the niche market of &quot;real men&quot; who need to haul boats, and hay, and all sorts of B.S. ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nobody has yet responded to my very recent post of , but I should clarify my statement that<br />
&#8220;purchasers of big GM Hybrids&#8221; (should) &#8220;have some assistance&#8221; &#8211; I should have limited this to vehicles produced  prior to the introduction of a subsidization bill. Obviously, the intent is to encourage the future of fuel-efficient vehicles.  The corrolary proposition would seem (at first glance) to be that the goal is to discourage companies from producing gas-hog (read: large SUV&#8217;s like Suburban, Tahoe, Expedition, Yukon, Armada, etc.).</p>
<p>My thinking is this. GM has made Hybrid SUV&#8217;s.  There is a market, hopefully diminishing, for such vehicles. Let&#8217;s help GM, Ford, Chrysler, get rid of their INVENTORY of large hybrids, while &#8220;sunsetting&#8221; the subsidy to discourage future production.  It should be easy enough to craft the language to exclude Lexus Hybrid SUV&#8217;s &#8211; sorry, but this market is composed of Junior League &#8216;fashionistas&#8217;, but perhaps I have succumbed to the masculinity of too many &#8220;like a rock&#8221; commercials, and am willing to accept the niche market of &#8220;real men&#8221; who need to haul boats, and hay, and all sorts of B.S. </p>
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		<title>By: Timothy J Bradley</title>
		<link>http://www.hybridcars.com/fix-detroit-guaranteed-car-loans-and-4-gas-25195/#comment-14164</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy J Bradley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Nov 2008 00:59:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://127.0.0.1/wordpress12/?p=4031#comment-14164</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I agree with the idea of Warren Brown that a $4 per gallon floor is needed.  Today, here in Florida, the price of unleaded was $2.39.  You can&#039;t put this floor &quot;in operation&quot; with this price. It will go back up, and when it does would be the time to impose it - along with the consumer/environmental friendly loan subsidies for the purchase of fuel efficient cars. My concern for the subsidy is that it will mortally wound GM, Ford, and Chrysler - who have such a limited number of fuel-efficient vehicles - but the subsidy can be a &quot;sliding scale&quot; for a few years, thus allowing purchasers of big GM Hybrids to have some assistance. (Note: this sliding scale cannot subsidize the Lexus Hybrids - at any level.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
While were at it. Kill ethanol production from corn.  Make &#039;em grow switchgrass, but prohibit agribusiness from utilizing any acreage currently or historically committed to corn, soy, etc.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Socialism? You betcha, but we saved the capitalists on Wall Street  (had to, I suppose) - now let&#039;s get smart.  I may never buy an American-made vehicle, but that doesn&#039;t mean for a New York minute that I want our auto industry to fail.  ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with the idea of Warren Brown that a $4 per gallon floor is needed.  Today, here in Florida, the price of unleaded was $2.39.  You can&#8217;t put this floor &#8220;in operation&#8221; with this price. It will go back up, and when it does would be the time to impose it &#8211; along with the consumer/environmental friendly loan subsidies for the purchase of fuel efficient cars. My concern for the subsidy is that it will mortally wound GM, Ford, and Chrysler &#8211; who have such a limited number of fuel-efficient vehicles &#8211; but the subsidy can be a &#8220;sliding scale&#8221; for a few years, thus allowing purchasers of big GM Hybrids to have some assistance. (Note: this sliding scale cannot subsidize the Lexus Hybrids &#8211; at any level.)</p>
<p>While were at it. Kill ethanol production from corn.  Make &#8216;em grow switchgrass, but prohibit agribusiness from utilizing any acreage currently or historically committed to corn, soy, etc.</p>
<p>Socialism? You betcha, but we saved the capitalists on Wall Street  (had to, I suppose) &#8211; now let&#8217;s get smart.  I may never buy an American-made vehicle, but that doesn&#8217;t mean for a New York minute that I want our auto industry to fail.  </p>
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		<title>By: Bryce</title>
		<link>http://www.hybridcars.com/fix-detroit-guaranteed-car-loans-and-4-gas-25195/#comment-14163</link>
		<dc:creator>Bryce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Oct 2008 06:59:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://127.0.0.1/wordpress12/?p=4031#comment-14163</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[current management brought us the Malibu, the CTS, the Enclave, and other models that are profitable and popular expanding GM&#039;s sales into the market that it hasn&#039;t seen in decades.  (malibu sales nearly doubled this year)  The dead weight models are left over from previous management and they are working with what they have and trying to revamp it during a  financial crisis.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Besides, tesla already killed the model S......o, and where are all the original roadsters of which hundreds were to be produced in the first year alone.  (last year by the way)  Never happened until this year, and there were less than 50.  All that didn&#039;t happen during the financial crisis, but before, and because of faulty management.  Why do you think they have switched CEOs so many times in the last year or so.  I wish the best of luck to them, but they are really fallin apart.  ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>current management brought us the Malibu, the CTS, the Enclave, and other models that are profitable and popular expanding GM&#8217;s sales into the market that it hasn&#8217;t seen in decades.  (malibu sales nearly doubled this year)  The dead weight models are left over from previous management and they are working with what they have and trying to revamp it during a  financial crisis.  </p>
<p>Besides, tesla already killed the model S&#8230;&#8230;o, and where are all the original roadsters of which hundreds were to be produced in the first year alone.  (last year by the way)  Never happened until this year, and there were less than 50.  All that didn&#8217;t happen during the financial crisis, but before, and because of faulty management.  Why do you think they have switched CEOs so many times in the last year or so.  I wish the best of luck to them, but they are really fallin apart.  </p>
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		<title>By: ex-EV1 driver</title>
		<link>http://www.hybridcars.com/fix-detroit-guaranteed-car-loans-and-4-gas-25195/#comment-14162</link>
		<dc:creator>ex-EV1 driver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Oct 2008 19:56:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://127.0.0.1/wordpress12/?p=4031#comment-14162</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I have a better idea.  How about giving Tesla $1 billion to build the Model S and accelerate the Blue Star (Tesla&#039;s code name for their 3rd model which is affordable by all) and let the idiots that run the Detroit Behemoths die like they deserve to after so many years of mismanagement.  &lt;br /&gt;
This will give the US an automaker who makes cars people want at prices they can afford.  If one is worried about the working class in Detroit, they can stipulate that the Blue Star plant be put there.&lt;br /&gt;
Why bail out companies that have shown that they don&#039;t have a clue how to run their businesses anymore.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a better idea.  How about giving Tesla $1 billion to build the Model S and accelerate the Blue Star (Tesla&#8217;s code name for their 3rd model which is affordable by all) and let the idiots that run the Detroit Behemoths die like they deserve to after so many years of mismanagement.  <br />
This will give the US an automaker who makes cars people want at prices they can afford.  If one is worried about the working class in Detroit, they can stipulate that the Blue Star plant be put there.<br />
Why bail out companies that have shown that they don&#8217;t have a clue how to run their businesses anymore.</p>
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		<title>By: Tony</title>
		<link>http://www.hybridcars.com/fix-detroit-guaranteed-car-loans-and-4-gas-25195/#comment-14161</link>
		<dc:creator>Tony</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Oct 2008 17:37:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://127.0.0.1/wordpress12/?p=4031#comment-14161</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[One appealing thing about a tax on gas is that it leverages existing government authority in a very simple way to realize a well-understood effect.  For that reason, I might be inclined to support a FLAT gas tax increase -- IE a fixed cents per gallon tax that does not vary with the underlying price and thus interfere with the use of pricing to synchronize supply and demand.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The biggest problem with a tax increase is that -- well, it&#039;s a tax increase.  I&#039;m a fiscal small-government conservative, and thus believe that all other things being equal, less tax is better.  Nevertheless, my conservative views also force me to be pleased with the reduced consumption resulting from recent high prices.  In other words, the reduced consumption is good, but the resulting harm that has come to the economy (and hence individuals participating in that economy) is an unacceptable trade.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
One possible way to balance these competing impulses, I think, would be to take an approach similar to the one adopted by proponents of the FairTax -- some kind of rebate or &quot;prebate&quot; by which the taxes collected via an increased fuel tax would be distributed back to those who have paid them.  In order not to undermine the tax&#039;s influence on behavior, the size of the prebate would have to be the same for all, or at least would have to be independent of usage, so that people would still reap a meaningful benefit from limiting their consumption.  The idea being that if you continue to exhibit average behavior with respect to consumption, it&#039;s a wash.  You pay a lot more for fuel because of the tax, but you get back the difference between what you do pay and what you would have paid without it.  However now, instead of saving $2.50 or $3 for each gallon of gas you buy, you save $4 (or $4.50 or $5 or $15...).  You avoid or at least mitigate the harm, but you still have the opportunity for substantial gain through modification of your own behavior.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The devil, of course, is in the details -- including how to manage such a system as consumption and hence tax revenue drops.  Do you increase the tax rate, reduce the rebate, or some combination of the two?  And of course, who thinks for a second that such a proposal would make it across the desks of 535 members of congress without anyone trying to &quot;improve&quot; it by adjusting how the prebate is distributed in furtherance of some social agenda or other.  EG maybe people in norther climes get a bit larger a prebate than everyone else to help heat their homes, or maybe people with less efficient cars get a little bit less.&lt;br /&gt;
]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One appealing thing about a tax on gas is that it leverages existing government authority in a very simple way to realize a well-understood effect.  For that reason, I might be inclined to support a FLAT gas tax increase &#8212; IE a fixed cents per gallon tax that does not vary with the underlying price and thus interfere with the use of pricing to synchronize supply and demand.</p>
<p>The biggest problem with a tax increase is that &#8212; well, it&#8217;s a tax increase.  I&#8217;m a fiscal small-government conservative, and thus believe that all other things being equal, less tax is better.  Nevertheless, my conservative views also force me to be pleased with the reduced consumption resulting from recent high prices.  In other words, the reduced consumption is good, but the resulting harm that has come to the economy (and hence individuals participating in that economy) is an unacceptable trade.</p>
<p>One possible way to balance these competing impulses, I think, would be to take an approach similar to the one adopted by proponents of the FairTax &#8212; some kind of rebate or &#8220;prebate&#8221; by which the taxes collected via an increased fuel tax would be distributed back to those who have paid them.  In order not to undermine the tax&#8217;s influence on behavior, the size of the prebate would have to be the same for all, or at least would have to be independent of usage, so that people would still reap a meaningful benefit from limiting their consumption.  The idea being that if you continue to exhibit average behavior with respect to consumption, it&#8217;s a wash.  You pay a lot more for fuel because of the tax, but you get back the difference between what you do pay and what you would have paid without it.  However now, instead of saving $2.50 or $3 for each gallon of gas you buy, you save $4 (or $4.50 or $5 or $15&#8230;).  You avoid or at least mitigate the harm, but you still have the opportunity for substantial gain through modification of your own behavior.</p>
<p>The devil, of course, is in the details &#8212; including how to manage such a system as consumption and hence tax revenue drops.  Do you increase the tax rate, reduce the rebate, or some combination of the two?  And of course, who thinks for a second that such a proposal would make it across the desks of 535 members of congress without anyone trying to &#8220;improve&#8221; it by adjusting how the prebate is distributed in furtherance of some social agenda or other.  EG maybe people in norther climes get a bit larger a prebate than everyone else to help heat their homes, or maybe people with less efficient cars get a little bit less.</p>
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		<title>By: Bryce</title>
		<link>http://www.hybridcars.com/fix-detroit-guaranteed-car-loans-and-4-gas-25195/#comment-14160</link>
		<dc:creator>Bryce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Oct 2008 16:52:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://127.0.0.1/wordpress12/?p=4031#comment-14160</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[lets not forget how STUPID it would be to exit out of the largest auto market in the world.  lol]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>lets not forget how STUPID it would be to exit out of the largest auto market in the world.  lol</p>
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		<title>By: veek</title>
		<link>http://www.hybridcars.com/fix-detroit-guaranteed-car-loans-and-4-gas-25195/#comment-14159</link>
		<dc:creator>veek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Oct 2008 00:35:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://127.0.0.1/wordpress12/?p=4031#comment-14159</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[-Another option, especially if business gets hit with higher taxes, is for Ford and GM to simply quit production of most North American models.  Rather than meaning doom and gloom for the company and its shareholders, it could be their salvation.  Both companies are doing quite well in the rest of the world markets, and it&#039;s only in North America where they are tied down with the boat anchor of lower profits and a bleak product outlook.  Many of their small cars (including ones that we see in the US) are already designed or made overseas.  The two companies could also import most of the good-selling reasonably-sized cars here, given American bias in favor of imported vehicles.&lt;br /&gt;
- GM and Ford both have a commendable loyalty to their US workforce which will probably keep them from exercising that option. ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>-Another option, especially if business gets hit with higher taxes, is for Ford and GM to simply quit production of most North American models.  Rather than meaning doom and gloom for the company and its shareholders, it could be their salvation.  Both companies are doing quite well in the rest of the world markets, and it&#8217;s only in North America where they are tied down with the boat anchor of lower profits and a bleak product outlook.  Many of their small cars (including ones that we see in the US) are already designed or made overseas.  The two companies could also import most of the good-selling reasonably-sized cars here, given American bias in favor of imported vehicles.<br />
- GM and Ford both have a commendable loyalty to their US workforce which will probably keep them from exercising that option. </p>
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		<title>By: Samie</title>
		<link>http://www.hybridcars.com/fix-detroit-guaranteed-car-loans-and-4-gas-25195/#comment-14158</link>
		<dc:creator>Samie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Oct 2008 20:51:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://127.0.0.1/wordpress12/?p=4031#comment-14158</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Tony is right commerce would suffer and consumer spending would decline and or debt would increase.   Interesting idea but not practical in our political institutions.  The interesting thing about this is how uneven the distributional outcomes would be. More stable policy would give loans to the domestic companies but focus on technology with government incentives to meet future goals.  We should focus on requiring  hybrid, electric or diesel technology to luxury vehicles that say use V8-V10 engines.  The burden of added cost would shift to higher end car buyers who have more disposable income instead of the working class folks.  The point should not be gas prices, or how much one drives but offering vehicles that are more efficient but do not constrain consumers from adding to the economy.  ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tony is right commerce would suffer and consumer spending would decline and or debt would increase.   Interesting idea but not practical in our political institutions.  The interesting thing about this is how uneven the distributional outcomes would be. More stable policy would give loans to the domestic companies but focus on technology with government incentives to meet future goals.  We should focus on requiring  hybrid, electric or diesel technology to luxury vehicles that say use V8-V10 engines.  The burden of added cost would shift to higher end car buyers who have more disposable income instead of the working class folks.  The point should not be gas prices, or how much one drives but offering vehicles that are more efficient but do not constrain consumers from adding to the economy.  </p>
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		<title>By: Tony</title>
		<link>http://www.hybridcars.com/fix-detroit-guaranteed-car-loans-and-4-gas-25195/#comment-14157</link>
		<dc:creator>Tony</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Oct 2008 17:05:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://127.0.0.1/wordpress12/?p=4031#comment-14157</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The problem with regulating the price of gasoline is that pricing is the mechanism by which supply and demand are regulated.  The reason gas rose to $4 is because at the time, that was the price at which oil companies could sell all the gas they had, but no more.  If the price had been higher, they&#039;d have ended up with a supply glut and if it had been lower there would have been shortages and gas lines.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
If the government puts a floor under the price of gas, whether it be $4, $3.50, or $3, and the &quot;correct&quot; price is closer to $2.75, you end up with excessive supply.  This isn&#039;t necessarily bad (higher supply means more security since we can bolster reserves against a rainy day), and it isn&#039;t necessarily good (excess supply will further erode prices on the open market, harming producers, which at the end of the day are legitimate companies in whose success we all have a stake, and in turn would provide a competitive advantage to economies around the world that don&#039;t institute such controls, or that do the opposite, like China which sets a ceiling by subsidizing the cost of energy).&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Rather, the point is that the interactions are complex and the consequences of such interference are by no means well understood.  Yes, it will reduce US consumption, in turn harming the US economy and consumers even if it is for our own good.  But it will do much more than than.&lt;br /&gt;
]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem with regulating the price of gasoline is that pricing is the mechanism by which supply and demand are regulated.  The reason gas rose to $4 is because at the time, that was the price at which oil companies could sell all the gas they had, but no more.  If the price had been higher, they&#8217;d have ended up with a supply glut and if it had been lower there would have been shortages and gas lines.</p>
<p>If the government puts a floor under the price of gas, whether it be $4, $3.50, or $3, and the &#8220;correct&#8221; price is closer to $2.75, you end up with excessive supply.  This isn&#8217;t necessarily bad (higher supply means more security since we can bolster reserves against a rainy day), and it isn&#8217;t necessarily good (excess supply will further erode prices on the open market, harming producers, which at the end of the day are legitimate companies in whose success we all have a stake, and in turn would provide a competitive advantage to economies around the world that don&#8217;t institute such controls, or that do the opposite, like China which sets a ceiling by subsidizing the cost of energy).</p>
<p>Rather, the point is that the interactions are complex and the consequences of such interference are by no means well understood.  Yes, it will reduce US consumption, in turn harming the US economy and consumers even if it is for our own good.  But it will do much more than than.</p>
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