Behind the Hidden Costs of Hybrids

I like everything you have to say, it all sounds legitimate. I want to help the environment, I want to buy a hybrid car, but I am still not convinced. I would like to know how much making a battery taxes the environment, if the complete cost of the hybrid, minus gas prices and tax breaks and battery replacement after 8-10 years, really makes it a better deal.

Battery replacement costs would exceed my current vehicle maintenance and gas consumption cost for my transportation requirements as a senior citizen. I would not consider replacing my 1991 olds with a Hybrid; although I would gladly consider an economical total electric vehicle (even though it’s size would likely compact in comparison – car manufacturers continue to decease the interior space of cars) should they ever be manufactured and retailed to the public.

83,000 miles into the Honda Civic Hybrid, I learned that the replacement cost of the battery pack was $5,000. BTW, it took the Honda Service Writer quite a while to find that info -- apparently, it's not readily available even to Honda service technicians. Also, I asked if they ever had a problem with the battery pack, and the service tech said, to his credit, yes -- there was a hybrid where the computer read out went haywire on the battery pack. And they replaced it.

Fortunately, my Civic's battery pack is fine -- (knock on wood). I'm glad to have learned that often the problem is with an electrical connection. Now I need to learn how to spot the problem and then how to fix/replace the connection.

Finally, you may have a recourse if your battery pack fails. A battery pack failure will, of course, affect the amount of exhaust pollutants coming out of your tail pipe per mile -- it will increase it, thereby violating exhaust emissions standards. You may want to research that and see if you can somehow use that to get a free replacement battery pack.

Metroplex Toyota is in Dallas, not Houston. If you got that wrong, what about the other "Facts" in your article?

I'm trying to decide whether or not to get a honda civic or a honda civic hybrid. The battery thing has me not sure what to do. I currently own a mazda 6 6 cylinder which gets a bout 23-24 mpg.

I just bought a 2003 toyota prius with 101,250 miles on it. I drove it from GA to st. louis and when I got home the car button with the horizontal exclamation point was flashing. We think it's the battery light. We are scared we will have to try replacing the battery. Any ideas would be appreciated.

Well I hate to rain on your parade, but I just got a quote on a battery replacement for a 2003 Honda Insight with 150,000 miles.

Try $6312.70 !!!!!!!

The battery (refurbished) replaced and 2 control modules plus labor.

What they fail to tell you is that the IMA battery weakens with age. Performance is slipping on my Insight. My 2003 is in self recharge most of the time. Unless there is an error light on in your dash, Honda won't do anything.

I do not see where hybrids are cost effective and I own 3 of them. For That kinda of money I can buy 1500 gallons of gasoline at $4 a gallon. I am really miffed because I was told around $1500 to replace the battery when I bought it. Who wants to invest that kind of money when the car is 5 to 10 years old. The battery replacement is worth more than the car. I was once a hybrid man but they are a scam....I am trading in the 3 I have.

This question prevented me from a Hybrid purchase mainly because I was looking for a car to keep for 10+ years. If I wanted the hybrid I would have leased.

Right now lease rates & resale for used hybrids are good but I wonder how long this will last if battery replacment becomes a common problem. I looks like buying a used hybrid is a big risk at the premiums they cost.

The end result of what is happening here is that people that really want to invest in hybrids will begin to stay away ... especially to purchase used hybrids that will be at or near the end of the batteries' life-cycle; because it is a very risky and potentially expensive purchase.

I fit this category and will now no longer consider a hybrid as a used car investment - just doesn't make any sense. Even makes me wonder if it makes sense as a new car investment because eventually the potential buyers will dwindle in number as the "word" gets out ... unless the battery prices head south in a big way ... which probably won't happen.

What really needs to happen is that instead of us [the consumer] subsidizing Toyota's [and other manufacturers'] R&D ... they need to buy back their "bad" batteries and subsidize an exchange program where the consumer [any owner of a hybrid - original owner or future owner] only has to pay $1000 to replace the batteries if that is indeed the problem [or guarantee the batteries and electrical components for 500,000 miles with no exceptions - period!].

The manufacturers also need to subsidize troubleshooting all electrical connections/battery connection & contact problems at a cap of $50 per service call with a maximum of $250 total cost for 500,000 miles regardless of how many owner. It puts the responsibility on the manufacturer to make this technology work!

Why do we, the consumer, have to assume the risk and R&D for this newer technology and its obscene cost to replace it. It is absurd! The manufacturers needs to step up to the plate!

We should be driving around with photovoltaic enabled vehicles [to run our car stereos, lights, and a/c's]. These vehicles need to have LED brake lights and turn-signals, and use compressed-air to power our cars - http://www.theaircar.com/ and build smaller more fuel efficient vehicles like the Nano - http://tatanano.inservices.tatamotors.com/tatamotors/.

GM could turn the Janesville, Wisconsin facility into an Air Car facility .... and give people jobs .... instead of producing SUV's and trucks ... that we do not need.

I've changed over to CFL's in my house and even have some LED's too to minimize my family's electrical consumption. But going "green" with car technology - no way! It is time for the car companies to start producing vehicles that make sense and work for us ,and, to not hold us at ransom!

Just my 2-C's.

These battery issues seem to be a real problem. I have been doing some research on Hybrids so I can make a decision on a future purchase. The one thing I found quite amusing was the posts that refer to the Salesman not knowing anything about the cost to replace these batteries. I think that is hogwash. That should be the first indicator that something is drastically wrong. They just refuse to divulge this information because it will hinder their ability to sell these vehicles. No moral or value issues for them. It also seems that there is a correlation between the cost of gasoline and batteries. They are both very high and the price is very unstable. It's as if these hybrid cars are nothing more than a disposable lighter. When the battery runs out, throw it away. As stated earlier, who wants to pay 5,000-7,000 on a 6-8 year old vehicle unless it is some sort of show car. I don't think these qualify. The post also indicated that the resale values were good. I bet there is a direct relationship to the age of the battery. If the battery has not been changed, I'll bet a car dealer will not give you much of anything for it and tell you it’s because the age of the battery and the high expense to replace it. Remember, this is the salesman who told you he had no idea what the cost was to replace the battery. I really need to do the research and find out who really is making these batteries and why the cost is still so high. The old rule of supply and demand may not apply here. With my luck, the hidden owners of the hybrid battery industry are probably the same companies who we depend on for overseas oil. How ironic would that be???????? Buyer, be truly aware!

I just looked at buying a hybrid escape/mariner/tribute. Several dealers said they didn't know how much the battery packs cost or how long that last (you don't know? sign me up!). One said they had just replaced a battery pack on an escape with about 120,000 miles on it and it cost just over 7K. They (salespeople) got a good laugh out of it and said that the only way they could see buying a hybrid was if you were trying to reduce your 'carbon footprint' because when you factor in battery price it just didn't make sense - especially if you do much highway driving - but even then the battery is not exactly 'green'. Hybrids are a rather stupid idea if you ask me but then I think that many of the people buying these cars are buying then to 'feel' like they are 'green' when the facts are something different. Kind of like much of the 'green' movement.

Folks let's not forget the other advantage of hybrids. Yes, they get great gas mileage, some better than others, but nonetheless good. The other benefit is less carbon monoxide into the environment. I realize that money is the driving force by which 99.9% of us live so the high cost of a hybrid and the threat of paying 3-8K for a replacement battery sucks. I am no environmentalist by any means but i will get onto my soap box for a second. The environment is taking a huge hit every year because of pollution. The cars you and I drive everyday are a large part of that polluiton. There are species of plants and animals that may very well be an integral part of the ecosystem that are paying the ultimate price for human habits. Hybrids are not perfect. Will they get cheaper? Who knows, i hope so. I would like to see oil go away permanently in favor of a cleaner and more efficient solution. I don't own a hybrid and i don't know if and when i will but i do know that every little bit helps when it comes to reducing pollution. With gas prices threatening to hit $6 by the end of the summer, I think people are going to start to change their tune about hybrids regardless of battery replacement costs after 7 or 8 years. I will climb down from my box now and shield myself from all of the E-daggers that are sure to come my way. Later.

John

"Gas price fixed to $3.00"

Heh, can you tell me where I can get in on some of that $3.00 gas???

All kidding aside, it seems like a curious assumption to use for budgeting. I realize this post was from 9 weeks ago, that would make it March 2008, but even then $3.00 gas would have been a bargain!

I drive a 2002 VW TDI turbocharged diesel that gets 46 mpg in town and 53 mpg on the highway. My cost for fuel at these high prices is 8 cents per mile. I expect the engine to last at least 500,000 miles, and have 145K miles on the engine now.

To compare costs of driving, one really should look at the total costs of car ownership, which includes repairs, parts, fuel, and complete car replacement. My Jetta will last as long as 2 or 3 hybrid cars. Yes, it is true that diesel fuel has a certain particulate emission, but it is getting cleaner with Ultra Low Sulpher, and I have no visible exhaust smoke.

Since my Jetta will last at least as long as two hybrids, the pollution costs to produce the Jetta must be compared to the pollution costs to produce the two hybrids. Pollution to the environment must be looked at in its totality if one wants to be accurate. My Jetta will be the least expensive car to own and drive for the long haul when compared to any hybrid.

I'll just stick with my 4 cyl Camry and 34 mpg. I know of several of these vehicles that have over 250K miles that still run fine with little mtce. My battery replacement will cost about $55 at WalMart - which I will be happy to pay.

I have thought about that, and I've only been able to find very conflicting information available online. Per Toyota, the prius batteries are 100% recyclable, and Toyota will even pay $200 for each old battery to ensure that it does get recycled. Another site I found indicated that NiMh batteries were in the "cleaner" column as batteries go, and that they were at least a step up from NiCad or other batteries that contain toxic materials (mercury, lead, cadmium).

But I still hear quite a bit from users such as yourself (Frank C.) about the environmental impact of the batteries. Does that mean the impact of mining the Nickel used to make the battery? I can't find good information on how destructive that is, but I can't imagine that any mining is going to be good for the environment.

Could somebody expand on the battery fears? Not the battery life, but the overall environmental impact that is more/less than traditional batteries.

there are a couple of factors on battery recycling--first, although the battery is recycled, the the metals must be decontaminated and restored to their orginal makeup--these contaminants must be desposed of. Also, recycled metal does not perform as well as 'virgin' metal. Also, the batteries are much much bigger than normal car batteries, which means more contaminants per car.

I think people need to do a little reality check on their fuel economy #'s. You can't compare highway miles on a regular car to a Prius - if all you ever did was drive on the highway, the Prius and other hybrids are pretty useless. I could claim for example that my V6 240 hp Accord gets 31mpg (it does at 60mph on highway). But reality is it gets 20mpg or less in mixed driving in town. Which is where most people do all their driving. And forget "my computer says i got x mpg". We are not scientists and we like to remember the best numbers of course but the Prius really does get mid 40s mpg in the city. And the "well engineered" 4 cylinder engines are getting 25mpg in the city. Where most people are driving. I know there is always an exception, someone out there getting 50mpg in their jetta TDI or Geo metro. But most hybrids, even hybrid SUVs get dramatically better mileage in the city when compared to their non hybrid cousins. And with gov't tax incentives, they sometimes cost only $2-3K more than non-hybrid when new. My accord, which cost several thousand more new than a Prius, (before the tax credit from Oregon - so more like $6,000 more) gets half the fuel economy in town. That means in 12K miles per year, I'm paying an extra $1200 in gas vs the Prius (at $4/gallon). So not only was the Prius several thousand cheaper to buy, it saves $1200 a year in gas! Even if they were the same prices, or I had paid extra for the hybrid, I think the fuel cost would pay for itself in 3 or 4 years.

But there's the rub. If gas goes back to $2/gallon, the equation doesn't look so good.

There is another savings that most don't count when it comes to hybrids.
I have not gotten any tickets in the 5 years since I bought my Civic Hybrid. Something about the constant feedback on performance makes me drive slower. When you see the effects on performance, you "learn" to drive more efficiently. Despite the many speed traps in our area, the local cities won't be getting money from me and my hybrid.

Needless to say, this also impacts on insurance costs and hassle factors with traffic school.
Folks who write off hybrids have no idea what they are missing. I will never buy another care without hybrid technology.

We have a 2003 Civic Hybrid we bought for what we thought was a great price. Now the IMA light comes on and the dealer says it it the battery pack.

The information about corroded connections was very helpful and I'll make sure they check that before I take the plunge.

BUT, on a slightly more positive note, they quoted me only $2700 for the replacement with labor. Somehow I still don't feel better.

I have driven my Prius for 4 years ..... no problems, excellent mileage..... highway and residential. I have a rack and carry an eight foot Kayak up into the Cascades. Great Mileage ........ battery replacement? Faaa!

How does a hybrid have less moving parts? They have all the parts of a regular car in the internal combustion portion of the drivetrain, plus all the additional parts of the hybrid system.

When are we, the buying public, going to demand solar technology for our cars, as well as our homes, etc.? When are our elected officials going to make energy independence a mandate for our country?

We should be harnessing the "free" energy provided by the sun every day. If the sun stops shining, then we have bigger problems than how to power our cars!

does this mean that once you replace the battery the car will be as good as new?

I have no regrets regarding my hybrids, both 01 Prius, although one had lots of problems; $6,500 transmission, $1,600 catalytic converter, $3,600 battery etc. My dealer told me today that a Toyota bulletin released this week reduced the price of a new battery pack by several hundred dollars.
And I am also pleased with the resale value. Today I attended a wholesale auto aution and saw an 06 Prius with 48,000 miles sell to a dealer for $22,500 plus auction fees and taxes.
Over the last 11 years I leased 2 electric cars, purchased two hybrids and have enjoyed the ride. But I will have to tell you that the hybrid maintainence (after warranty) is much greater than I expected. While the resale market is strong I am going to sell and watch from the sidelines.
I am getting old, but I hope I live long enough to see plugins on the showroom floor. That would be too much for me to resist.

Battery - Sudbury Ontario. The real hidden cost of hybrids. Google Image Sudbury Nickle battery.

If ereryone is so worried about the high cost of a replacement battery; say in the 7 to 9 k range for ten grand you can replace a bad battery with a 100 mpg system complete with lithium batteries. some of the conversions are less. I will be converting to the 40 mile range all electric as soon as I can get through the house buy/sale fiesco I am presently embroiled in. I currently get 34 mpg in my 2005 prius with my lead foot. I need about 40 miles range to be totally electric.

I am tossing around purchasing a used 2003 Honda Civic Hybrid which currently has approx. 91,000 miles. Based on some of the things I have been reading above, it sounds like this may not be a good idea especially if the battery dies within the next five years. I have a very tight budget and replacing a battery at these prices would put a huge dent in any expected fuel savings that I would get. Does anyone have some enlightening thoughts for me as far as whether to buy or wait?

u can all the parts u needs on ebay i bought a cell for 49.95 to replace one of mine

I think it's great that Toyota puts their phone number on all of their batteries and pay you $200 to "recycle" it...but has anyone actually found out how or where they recycle them?
Please don't hate on me, but seriously, I can't find the info. My guess is it is flown (and not on an electric plane) and buried in a Toyota shhhh...! LANDFILL!
I think hybrids might be a safer bet five or so years down the road when we all have more concrete facts. There are many diesel and compact/sub compact vehicles that can save you the same amount of money. They just don't seem to be at the proven stage yet.

Cafe standards would be much easier for U.S. automakers to meet if congress would back off the safety standards that have to be built into new cars. {example} Mustangs have been built for over 40 years, the newest model is very close in size to a 1967-68 model.
The 68 weighed about 3000 pounds ,the new mustang is about 3800 pounds. most of this weight is 5mph bumpers ,airbags, and steel reinforcement to drivers compartment, all mandated by the congress.That is why we cant get the really high mileage gas cars that are produced in europe. American auto makers have been hog tied by our well meaning uncle sam. I cant believe we can even build motorcycles for the road in the U.S. .If only Ralph Nader had written Unsafe At Any Speed about the volkswagon bug instead of the Corvair, the U.S. auto industry might be leading the world right now, these saftey mandates killed Detroit.

I have a 2003 Civic Hybrid that I purchased new. I have 128,000 miles on it. Unfortunately, the battery is going bad and must be replaced. Moreover, the replacement cost is $3,000 and the warranty on the battery is 12 months/12,000.

While I've been very pleased with my Hybrid, I am not pleased with the replacement cost for the battery. If you buy a used hybrid, make sure the battery is covered by a warranty. Otherwise, be prepared to shell out $3K for a new battery.

The problem is the warranty on the battery. The warranty on a battery for a 03 Civic Hybrid is 12 months/12,000 miles. That's ridiculous when the battery's cost is $3,000.

Just wondering if any of you hybrid owners have purchased 3rd party extended warranties and if these warranties cover the battery pack replacement after the term of the original warranty?

Also, what is the general experience with mechanics dealing with the electrical systems on these hybrids? Are you essentially restricted to using the dealer for all hybrid-system related maintenance? I typically prefer to find an independent local mechanic for better customer service and continuity, but if these systems require specially-trained mechanics, I guess that would be out.

Thanks,

i like it very much ,let me bookmark it ,thank you

Our 2003 Civic Hybrid needs a new battery pack. $3100.00. The car has 140,000 miles. The car is not worth the price of a new battery. So basically we have to junk it. A gas burning Civic will last 300,000 miles. So I don't care how much you save in gas, having to junk a car with 140,000 miles is not worth the gas savings. Plus you have to drive a gutless car around.

Any idea about the consequences of driving 2003 Honda Hybrid with a bad IMA battery?

Thanks,

I had spent a long time laying out my case for hybrids, with 4 or 5 well-built paragraphs documenting my personal savings. I scrapped it (you're welcome) in favor of these few thoughts:

1. If (when) gas prices are consistently above $5/gallon, this thread will be moot. My '03 Civic Hybrid would save over $500 a year (13K miles/yr) vs. a standard '03 Civic. In the 4 years I've owned it (bought it used in 2005), I've already made up the price of replacing the battery and should have at least 8 more years to more than make up for the difference in cost over a standard used Civic in 2005. With China already surpassing the US in car sales, how long do you think it will be before gas is above $5/gallon?

2. My height requires my seat to be back as far as it can go. One of my two children must suffer the seat behind mine, so the Civic is as small as I can go (no Honda Fit or VW Golf TDI will cut it). Therefore, not everyone has the practical choice to get a sub-compact. So, yes, one CAN get a cheap sub-compact with comprable mpg's, but such cars do not fit my transportation needs. We're not all single communters.

Mike

As with all technology, the initial costs can be extremely high, but that just drives innovation and competition.
Initially, replacement batteries were in the $7000-$9000 range, but market forces have driven the price down and now things are where they should have been all along. Between Ron Hansen and myself, we should be able to help with most any hybrid battery pack that is thrown our way. We are also begining to remanufacture some inverters, transmissions and MFD displays that are currently only available new from the dealer and priced very high because of that. We hope to be able to offer those at 1/2 the price of the new parts.
David- Re-Involt Technologies
http://www.re-involt.com

Dude, I appreciate the article greatly . However, your info is kind of off. Brock Yates is absolutely is right. And here is why

1)Hybrids are subsidized. Your prius cost close to $ 50,000 . You pay half and we ,the tax payers pay the rest. Thank Clinton for this one.

2)Batteries, no matter what anyone else will tell you do degrade with time. Sure it may last 10 years but it will carry little charge. Batteries lose capacitance......its a fact. No debate. They may hold better than a convential lead acid battery.........but they will sooner than later experience voltage depression. Anyone telling you anything else is trying to sell you something. And infact, this is the one of the reasons we dont have hydrogen cars. The technology for a battery rubust enough...isnt there.

3)The long term cost of disposing of these batterey packs will be substantial...and the long term environmental impact on our already over taxed landfills will leave a toxic legacy for our children.

4)You may not know it...but you are being exposed to toxic off gasing...............of which no long term studies have been done. People might argue against this........but that is because they are misinformed . These batteries are dry cells and do not off gas like the lead acid battery we use to start are cars...........but they do infact offgas. And though comparitively the amount is less...........long term it is still an issue. Is there a safe level to the exposure of these gases? I let you find out.

So lets take a look at what we have. We have $ 50,000 dollar car that gets worse gas mileage than my 1994 GEO Metro ( 51 in town and 62 highway)actual results. My car new was $6999. Emissions are functionally equivalent. Maintainence on the prius is several times greater than on my car. Hell there was a GEO for sale down the street with 37,000 miles for 1200$ obo( that for a whole car ...not for a used battery pack). Aside from battery replacement you have short tire life....with the hybrids and as a bonus you expose yourself to EMF in the microwave range. Sitting in a hybrid is like walking with a gas powered cellphone between your crotch.

In the long run a toyata yaris is infinitely cheaper and nearly as good on fuel usage, and will last 3 times as long. Oh and the Yaris is super clean emissions wise too.

Also , the orginal honda crx got fuel effeciency in this range. And those damn things are almost free. Oh and you know what it cost to replace the motor in my 99 civic? It cost me a little over 1100$. New motor. I will be driving my civic for another 13 years at 45 mpg for a cost of maybe 2000$ total, while you will have put us in debt, spent 10's of thousands of dollars, filled our landfills, and irradiated you and anyone in your car . Sounds like a deal to me(lol)