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	<title>Comments on: Consumer Reports Questions Plug-In Practicality</title>
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	<link>http://www.hybridcars.com/consumer-reports-questions-plug-practicality-25392/</link>
	<description>Auto alternatives for the 21st century</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 03 Dec 2012 19:24:39 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: tapra1</title>
		<link>http://www.hybridcars.com/consumer-reports-questions-plug-practicality-25392/#comment-16191</link>
		<dc:creator>tapra1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Mar 2012 11:32:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://127.0.0.1/wordpress12/?p=4500#comment-16191</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[They weigh more, and give an electric range of only 10 miles, but at a price of $6,700, that may be enough for local users who can recharge between short trips. As research now underway at Carnegie-Mellon University points out,&lt;a title=&quot;Best Cloud Hosting&quot; href=&quot;http://webhostingreview.info/cloud-hosting/&quot;&gt;Best Cloud Hosting&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>They weigh more, and give an electric range of only 10 miles, but at a price of $6,700, that may be enough for local users who can recharge between short trips. As research now underway at Carnegie-Mellon University points out,<a title="Best Cloud Hosting" href="http://webhostingreview.info/cloud-hosting/">Best Cloud Hosting</a></p>
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		<title>By: Bryce</title>
		<link>http://www.hybridcars.com/consumer-reports-questions-plug-practicality-25392/#comment-16190</link>
		<dc:creator>Bryce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Feb 2009 06:39:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://127.0.0.1/wordpress12/?p=4500#comment-16190</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That probably wouldn&#039;t go over well with Joe Blow Car buyer.  Remember we still use horsepower to determine the power of the car when Newtons would really be a better form....or maybe KJ....but we don&#039;t.  Things may stay in mpg form for a long time....if not indefinetly.  ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That probably wouldn&#8217;t go over well with Joe Blow Car buyer.  Remember we still use horsepower to determine the power of the car when Newtons would really be a better form&#8230;.or maybe KJ&#8230;.but we don&#8217;t.  Things may stay in mpg form for a long time&#8230;.if not indefinetly.  </p>
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		<title>By: Zero X Owner</title>
		<link>http://www.hybridcars.com/consumer-reports-questions-plug-practicality-25392/#comment-16189</link>
		<dc:creator>Zero X Owner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Feb 2009 23:37:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://127.0.0.1/wordpress12/?p=4500#comment-16189</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@ Dave:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Who knows? Any mpg claim for any vehicle that uses any amount of electric drive is pure gibberish. EPA needs to get off their lazy hind ends and report # kWh / 100 miles for ALL (inlcuding pure gassers) vehicles back to at least 1991. Once you have that information you can:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
1. Compare all vehicles&#039; efficiencies directly, apples to apples.&lt;br /&gt;
2. Figure out some economics of vehicles based on efficiency (say, using a efficiency weighted car price of (# kWh / 100 miles) * (vehicle cost). where a smaller number is better. On this basis a Prius (1.875 M) beats a Jetta TDI (2.450 M) beats a Tesla Roadster (2.500 M). Note that Tesla is right in the cream of the crop, though, as they all crush a 2009 Yukon Denali XL (15.354 M), which costs as much as 2 Priuses and is 3 times less efficient.&lt;br /&gt;
3. Compare energy sources by price. Currently, electric drive wins hugely as electricty is a cheaper price per kWh than gasoline and much, much more efficient.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Dave:</p>
<p>Who knows? Any mpg claim for any vehicle that uses any amount of electric drive is pure gibberish. EPA needs to get off their lazy hind ends and report # kWh / 100 miles for ALL (inlcuding pure gassers) vehicles back to at least 1991. Once you have that information you can:</p>
<p>1. Compare all vehicles&#8217; efficiencies directly, apples to apples.<br />
2. Figure out some economics of vehicles based on efficiency (say, using a efficiency weighted car price of (# kWh / 100 miles) * (vehicle cost). where a smaller number is better. On this basis a Prius (1.875 M) beats a Jetta TDI (2.450 M) beats a Tesla Roadster (2.500 M). Note that Tesla is right in the cream of the crop, though, as they all crush a 2009 Yukon Denali XL (15.354 M), which costs as much as 2 Priuses and is 3 times less efficient.<br />
3. Compare energy sources by price. Currently, electric drive wins hugely as electricty is a cheaper price per kWh than gasoline and much, much more efficient.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave ROhm</title>
		<link>http://www.hybridcars.com/consumer-reports-questions-plug-practicality-25392/#comment-16188</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave ROhm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Feb 2009 15:33:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://127.0.0.1/wordpress12/?p=4500#comment-16188</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t get it.  When they claim 100 mpg, are they claiming total miles driven on a full battery charge plus gas.  And are they ignoring the kWh energy use of the batteries?  ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t get it.  When they claim 100 mpg, are they claiming total miles driven on a full battery charge plus gas.  And are they ignoring the kWh energy use of the batteries?  </p>
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		<title>By: kengrubb</title>
		<link>http://www.hybridcars.com/consumer-reports-questions-plug-practicality-25392/#comment-16187</link>
		<dc:creator>kengrubb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Feb 2009 15:41:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://127.0.0.1/wordpress12/?p=4500#comment-16187</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[We all breath the same air, so ultimately the overall net benefit from PHEVs will be enjoyed by all. California (#1) and Washington (#2) have the highest per capita sales of hybrids. It therefore stands to reason that PHEV sales will likely be highest in those two states.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As emissions move from the tailpipe to the smokestack (or hopefully dam, PV farm, wind farm, et al.) it&#039;s a whole lot easier to monitor and reduce emissions from hundreds of coal plants as opposed to millions of cars--many of which likely aren&#039;t being maintained as well as they should be and thus probably aren&#039;t as clean burning as they were the day they left the factory.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
A little basic deductive reasoning, and PHEVs only make sense--just as soon as the car makers can start producing them safely and reliably. Concluding PHEVs don&#039;t work because the aftermarket conversions are expensive sounds like the kind of argument one would expect from the petroleum industry, not CU.&lt;br /&gt;
]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We all breath the same air, so ultimately the overall net benefit from PHEVs will be enjoyed by all. California (#1) and Washington (#2) have the highest per capita sales of hybrids. It therefore stands to reason that PHEV sales will likely be highest in those two states.</p>
<p>As emissions move from the tailpipe to the smokestack (or hopefully dam, PV farm, wind farm, et al.) it&#8217;s a whole lot easier to monitor and reduce emissions from hundreds of coal plants as opposed to millions of cars&#8211;many of which likely aren&#8217;t being maintained as well as they should be and thus probably aren&#8217;t as clean burning as they were the day they left the factory.</p>
<p>A little basic deductive reasoning, and PHEVs only make sense&#8211;just as soon as the car makers can start producing them safely and reliably. Concluding PHEVs don&#8217;t work because the aftermarket conversions are expensive sounds like the kind of argument one would expect from the petroleum industry, not CU.</p>
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		<title>By: Zero X Owner</title>
		<link>http://www.hybridcars.com/consumer-reports-questions-plug-practicality-25392/#comment-16186</link>
		<dc:creator>Zero X Owner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Jan 2009 19:58:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://127.0.0.1/wordpress12/?p=4500#comment-16186</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Even if Consumer Reports does retest the PHEV, using the same method, but with the new (after 1995) efficiency metric, the results will tell us everything about the test driver&#039;s driving and nothing about the difference between the plug in hybrid efficiency ( # kWh / 100 miles) versus the EPA certified and real world average (which requires many vehicles over thousands of miles for more than one year, to approach an unbiaased result). At the very least, Consumer Reports would have to put the PHEV modified Prius through an EPA test cycle with EPA certification at the end before publishing the results. When did Consumer Reports become so unscientific? ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Even if Consumer Reports does retest the PHEV, using the same method, but with the new (after 1995) efficiency metric, the results will tell us everything about the test driver&#8217;s driving and nothing about the difference between the plug in hybrid efficiency ( # kWh / 100 miles) versus the EPA certified and real world average (which requires many vehicles over thousands of miles for more than one year, to approach an unbiaased result). At the very least, Consumer Reports would have to put the PHEV modified Prius through an EPA test cycle with EPA certification at the end before publishing the results. When did Consumer Reports become so unscientific? </p>
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		<title>By: Zero X Owner</title>
		<link>http://www.hybridcars.com/consumer-reports-questions-plug-practicality-25392/#comment-16185</link>
		<dc:creator>Zero X Owner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Jan 2009 19:42:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://127.0.0.1/wordpress12/?p=4500#comment-16185</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Because the metric Consumer Reports (CR) used is hard bounded at the top at 99.9 mpg and when on all electric it really gets infinite mpg, mpg is a completely meaningless metric for either CS or EPA to use for any vehicle with electric drive capability. The mpg results are wrong no matter what you do. What Consumer Reports needs to do is to use the not so new correct EPA efficiency metric of number of kilowatt hours per 100 miles (# kWh / 100 miles), with the gasoline use portion simply translated by formula to that metric, using the energy content in the gasoline.  EPA is in the middle of doing those translations for all old pure gasser vehicles back to 1991, keeping in mind that retail gasoline currently contains 10% ethanol, which has less energy and that diesel has more energy. Once done with all the math, they will publicly post the results. Consumer Reports can THEN compare their newly calculated findings on a plug in Prius on a # kWh / 100 miles basis to the posted EPA certified results for a regular non-plug-in Prius, on a # kWh / 100 miles basis. For comparison, a standard Tesla Roadster (not the Sport version) is EPA certified at 28 kWh / 100 miles and my Zero X (kitted) electric motorcycle uses 2 kWh / 100 miles, real world average. The lower that metric number is, the more efficient the vehicle. My motorcycle is thus 14 times more efficient than a standard Tesla Roadster (and cost less than $8,000). &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Remember, the official EPA metric is now # kWh / 100 miles, for pure gassers and hybrids too and that the lower the number, the more efficient the vehicle.&lt;br /&gt;
 ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Because the metric Consumer Reports (CR) used is hard bounded at the top at 99.9 mpg and when on all electric it really gets infinite mpg, mpg is a completely meaningless metric for either CS or EPA to use for any vehicle with electric drive capability. The mpg results are wrong no matter what you do. What Consumer Reports needs to do is to use the not so new correct EPA efficiency metric of number of kilowatt hours per 100 miles (# kWh / 100 miles), with the gasoline use portion simply translated by formula to that metric, using the energy content in the gasoline.  EPA is in the middle of doing those translations for all old pure gasser vehicles back to 1991, keeping in mind that retail gasoline currently contains 10% ethanol, which has less energy and that diesel has more energy. Once done with all the math, they will publicly post the results. Consumer Reports can THEN compare their newly calculated findings on a plug in Prius on a # kWh / 100 miles basis to the posted EPA certified results for a regular non-plug-in Prius, on a # kWh / 100 miles basis. For comparison, a standard Tesla Roadster (not the Sport version) is EPA certified at 28 kWh / 100 miles and my Zero X (kitted) electric motorcycle uses 2 kWh / 100 miles, real world average. The lower that metric number is, the more efficient the vehicle. My motorcycle is thus 14 times more efficient than a standard Tesla Roadster (and cost less than $8,000). </p>
<p>Remember, the official EPA metric is now # kWh / 100 miles, for pure gassers and hybrids too and that the lower the number, the more efficient the vehicle.</p>
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		<title>By: Bryce</title>
		<link>http://www.hybridcars.com/consumer-reports-questions-plug-practicality-25392/#comment-16184</link>
		<dc:creator>Bryce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Jan 2009 05:05:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://127.0.0.1/wordpress12/?p=4500#comment-16184</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[well, the shareholders oddly enough may represent the Palestinians becuase they kinda of don&#039;t have control anymore.  Their stocks are largely valueless and they have been thrown to the wayside and are recieving no dividends for the forseeable future whereas the UAW holds the cards to the next move.  Let it not be forgotten that on the eve of compromise for the bailout, it was stubbroness on the part of the UAW that derailed it all, and they still are sticking to their guns.......or in this analogy.....their warplanes and tanks....I suppose....&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Not to deride Israel at all......if people had been shooting rockets at me for years......I would have killed them all in year one.  ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>well, the shareholders oddly enough may represent the Palestinians becuase they kinda of don&#8217;t have control anymore.  Their stocks are largely valueless and they have been thrown to the wayside and are recieving no dividends for the forseeable future whereas the UAW holds the cards to the next move.  Let it not be forgotten that on the eve of compromise for the bailout, it was stubbroness on the part of the UAW that derailed it all, and they still are sticking to their guns&#8230;&#8230;.or in this analogy&#8230;..their warplanes and tanks&#8230;.I suppose&#8230;.</p>
<p>Not to deride Israel at all&#8230;&#8230;if people had been shooting rockets at me for years&#8230;&#8230;I would have killed them all in year one.  </p>
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		<title>By: RKRB</title>
		<link>http://www.hybridcars.com/consumer-reports-questions-plug-practicality-25392/#comment-16183</link>
		<dc:creator>RKRB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Jan 2009 04:55:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://127.0.0.1/wordpress12/?p=4500#comment-16183</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I hope GM (and Ford) can pull it off. You&#039;re right -- everyone could benefit. As long as the shareholders and the UAW don&#039;t get too greedy (although that seems like saying Mid East Peace is possible if we could just get the Israelis and Palestinians to start liking each other).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hope GM (and Ford) can pull it off. You&#8217;re right &#8212; everyone could benefit. As long as the shareholders and the UAW don&#8217;t get too greedy (although that seems like saying Mid East Peace is possible if we could just get the Israelis and Palestinians to start liking each other).</p>
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		<title>By: Bryce</title>
		<link>http://www.hybridcars.com/consumer-reports-questions-plug-practicality-25392/#comment-16182</link>
		<dc:creator>Bryce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jan 2009 23:24:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://127.0.0.1/wordpress12/?p=4500#comment-16182</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well, there is a difference between economic profits and normal profits.  Normal profits, where cost =  revenues is perfectly acceptable to a company.  The only reason companies aim for economic profits is because they can pay shareholders and bonuses for emplyees.......and of course simply....a bit more money.  However, speaking in a strictly sustainability point of view, normal profit is perfectly fine, especially for something experimental like this, and givn tax incentives provided by big bad government, it makes it economical to the consumer as well.  A win-win for all.  : )]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, there is a difference between economic profits and normal profits.  Normal profits, where cost =  revenues is perfectly acceptable to a company.  The only reason companies aim for economic profits is because they can pay shareholders and bonuses for emplyees&#8230;&#8230;.and of course simply&#8230;.a bit more money.  However, speaking in a strictly sustainability point of view, normal profit is perfectly fine, especially for something experimental like this, and givn tax incentives provided by big bad government, it makes it economical to the consumer as well.  A win-win for all.  : )</p>
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