Comments on: $8 Billion in Loans Goes to Ford, Nissan & Tesla

By: ex-EV1 driver

ex-EV1 driver — Mon, 29 Jun 2009 05:05:30 +0000

SAm Parks,
The biggest difference I see between the money winners (Tesla, Nissan, and Ford) and those who didn't yet get money (Bright, Fisker, etc), however, is not the amount of lobbying money but the fact that all three of the winners actually are making production automobiles today and all have made production electric vehicles (at least in the recent past). Tesla, of course, is the only one that is currently making production automobiles (very fine ones at that).
Personally, I hate seeing how lobbying is necessary in order to get anything from the government but then I'm opposed to socialism in general.
I wish Bright the best of luck but see no reason to believe that they will be able to successfully put an electric car into production. I certainly hope that at least a little bit of money goes their direction in the near future.

By: Salma01

Salma01 — Sat, 27 Jun 2009 06:03:16 +0000

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By: SAm Parks

SAm Parks — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 16:56:15 +0000

Regarding the politics of the DOE ATVM Loan awards:
So it turns out to be all the best loans money can buy.
Ford paid over $14M to elected officials and consultants in order to get the loan. Ford paid the third largest amount and Ford got the third largest loan. This is disclosed in public records searches and lobby filings just revealed. 21 elected officials had direct benefit from the deal.
Nissan paid over $10M to elected officials and consultants in order to get the loan. Nissan paid the third largest amount and Nissan got the third largest loan. This is disclosed in public records searches and lobby filings just revealed. The law and public statements by elected officials state that the money was to increase American competitiveness for America car companies yet the money was given to a Japanese company who will send all of the profits back to Japan. 7 elected officials had direct benefit from the deal.
Tesla paid over $100,000.00 to elected officials and consultants in order to get the loan. Tesla paid the third largest amount and Tesla got the third largest loan. This is disclosed in public records searches and lobby filings just revealed. Tesla’s filings show that their business model is unsustainable compared to competitors, that they were 200% off on the BOM of their car, that all of their first funding was wasted so they have to pay back twice as much to investors as competing companies and that their technology is so old, it all needs to be redone yet they still got money. 18 elected officials had direct benefit from the deal. Tesla did not even read the rules for the loan and planned to build a building when the NEPA rules make that option impossible so they had to restart the process, which is supposed to put one into a new cycle yet they were kept in the previous cycle and put ahead of Fisker, Bright and others who had applied earlier than Tesla. Tesla provided massively creative accounting records to show that they were financially sustainable and have issued numerous press releases to try to make people think that but, in fact, the truth is that they are not because of bad management issues that they cannot get past.
The ATVM program was created by Ford, GM & Chrysler lobbyists to pad their company’s pockets and those three had pre-hardwired the entire $25B for their own pockets but something happened in the process when Senator Bingaman added a few key lines that opened the door for OTHERS to apply to build green technology and required that those who get the money were “financially sustainable” businesses. Back when the ATVM was authored to save Detroit, it was fully known that Detroit was going to go bankrupt. Ford had the same problems as GM and Chrysler but they went around the world getting bailout money instead of going first to US funds. As law required public exposure of the bankruptcy, Bingaman’s brilliant plan to finally create a green transportation industry was revealed. The very people that had stopped green cars for over 100 years suddenly became the first people to, accidently, cause them to happen but now others could do it too.
Bingaman should get the Congressional Medal of Honor for pulling off this impossible trick and finally giving America the Electric Cars it should have had for the last hundred years.
Once Detroit realized this, they tried to hijack the whole ATVM program with a takeback at the end of 2008 but that effort was defeated by a close late night vote. Now that it was out there, Detroit lobbyists and influencers fought to get the review of applicants delayed for as long as possible because they realized that, in a recession, most of the smaller competing interests could be forced to go out of business if they could just be kept away from the money for long enough. Major American TARP banks have said that the standard commercial loan process that each of these 26 applicants (not hundreds of applicants- There were 26 applicants in the round) should take 4 weeks at the longest and 3 weeks nominally. It seems clear that the loans were delayed due to political agendas and not process issues.
Bright Automotive had applied on time, ahead of the others, turned in low overhead numbers and a great path too profit but they were virtually ignored while intensive meetings were conducted with Nissan, Ford and Tesla because those parties paid for it. The law says that this, and the purchasing of favors, gave those parties an unfair business advantage using taxpayer dollars, over Bright. A case Bright would easily win if they choose to run with it.
Clearly, it isn’t over yet. Stay tuned for the Senate, Congressional, Ethics Committee and media reviews of this one. Watch for the charts connecting who-to-who. (It is OK to re-post this)

By: Bud

Bud — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 16:04:10 +0000

That is a good question.I believe I read in the paper that they are also subsidized by thier govt. so yes why is it we lend tax payer dollars to a foriegn auto maker? Also glad to see Tesla get the loan.Cant wait to buy one of thier sedans.

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 11:54:44 +0000

Why is the U.S. government using my tax money to provide loans to a foregin car manufacturer?

By: Mike G.

Mike G. — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 08:25:10 +0000

Clinton gave $10 Billion to Detroit to create fuel efficient vehicles and all we got were gas guzzlers and pickup trucks that urban men drive as tanks. Why should we expect anything different this time?

By: Dave - Phoenix

Dave - Phoenix — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 04:42:49 +0000

Jeff,

Congrats on the new Prius.....

I did the same thing, buying a new hybrid this year.

A hybrid to make as much impact as I can today...

An EV when they become affordable.....

By: Dave - Phoenix

Dave - Phoenix — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 04:37:31 +0000

I am very happy to see Tesla get this loan.

Thousands of other startup companies applied for loans and didn't get them.

This shows that Tesla is a legitimate player in the EV game.

It looks like Silicon Valley will become the new Detroit after all.....

By: Samie

Samie — Thu, 25 Jun 2009 20:55:42 +0000

Not Believin’ may have tried to talk about how nasty coal really is, which is true that is the amt. of methane and some extraction methods known w/ coal. But I would not go as far as saying “coal burning car”. I think like others electric consumption offers a wider range of alternatives including using things like solar or wind that can be grid independent. Or say using non peak load energy overnight to juice up your vehicle. Political forces will continue to push for updating grid systems because that is a easy way to spur job growth. The only real problems I see is with the energy sector fighting to reduce state quotes on percentages of alt. energies, wanting no cap and trade regulation, or problems working out agreements with other electric utility companies over expansion of multi-state power lines and distribution rights.

By: ex-EV1 driver

ex-EV1 driver — Thu, 25 Jun 2009 19:41:29 +0000

32% grid efficiency? Where did you get this number?
Try more like 90% efficiency for the grid. Then the 90% charging efficiency and 90% motor efficiency and you get pretty incredible efficiency for the overall EV efficiency.
As Shines points out an ICE is about 15% efficient. Hybrids and diesels are still less than 25% efficient.
This means that the worst coal fired power plant feeding an EV about the same well-to-wheels efficiency as a Prius. This will only improve as the grid improves with time.